The real rapture that makes sense

Timtofly

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That interpretation of 4:15 as a second judgment is likewise contrary to authoritative NT teaching which presents only one judgment--in the last day, at the end of time; i.e., the sheep and goat judgment of all mankind.
The sheep and goat judgment is not the final judgment of all mankind ever to be conceived. It is not even for dead people. It is only to bring Israel out off all nations including present day Israel, which is no different than any other nation. This is a second coming judgment 1000 years before God's GWT judgment.


They are separate judgments. For starters the GWT is after heaven and earth pass away, meaning no one is alive because there is no earth to be alive upon. The sheep and goats are about living people in current nations on a current earth. So yes, there is a 1000 year period between these two judgments, and the first one deals with living humans at the Second Coming. The GWT only deals with dead humans of all time.
 
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Timtofly

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All personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Numbers 12:8, see post #94, above) must be in agreement with the authoritative teaching of God's completed revelation of the NT, which NT teaching is the light in which all Scripture is to understood.

Authoritative NT teaching presents only one rapture and one judgment, the sheep and goat judgment of all mankind, in the last day, at the end of time.
Show me one verse in Matthew 25:31-46 that mentions dead people.

Your interpretation is adding to the Word. It also contradicts Revelation 20:11-15.

The light in these two chapters explains the difference between the two judgments.
 
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1Tonne

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NT teaching allows no time between the resurrection, rapture, second coming and judgment of the sheep and goats for 1000 years of anything. These events are followed by the new heavens and new earth.
Where does it say that there is no time?
 
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keras

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Are The Dead Really Dead?
An excellent exposition of Bible truths. I will copy this for reference, thanks.
If you accept the Atonement instead of the judgment, why would you still expect to be judged?
Revelation 20:11-15 is quite clear: EVERYONE will stand before God in Judgment. Then; the Book of Life is opened and those whose Names are found Written in it will receive Eternal life.
So it isn't a Judgment, per se, just an assembly where the people who have proved their faith will be transformed into Spiritual beings and the ungodly people, annihilated.
Any ideas of a 'paradise' and leaving the earth, before then, is false and unBiblical.
 
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eleos1954

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An excellent exposition of Bible truths. I will copy this for reference, thanks.

Revelation 20:11-15 is quite clear: EVERYONE will stand before God in Judgment. Then; the Book of Life is opened and those whose Names are found Written in it will receive Eternal life.
So it isn't a Judgment, per se, just an assembly where the people who have proved their faith will be transformed into Spiritual beings and the ungodly people, annihilated.
Any ideas of a 'paradise' and leaving the earth, before then, is false and unBiblical.

well ... no ... it is judgement .... it's just that we are seen as innocent through the blood of Jesus and thereby declared innocent (He paid the sin debt (transgression of the law) that each of us owe) ... not that we are innocent. Death (for eternity) which we all deserve is fully forgiven because of Jesus .... and that is not in any way earned .... it's a gift He bestows on those who walked with Him through love and for no other reasons.

Daneil 7:22

Berean Study Bible
until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.

Final Judgement isn't over until after the 2nd resurrection and death itself is destroyed. Interesting .... death destroyed by death - annihilated for eternity. The law applied fully without any intervention by Jesus.

1st Corinthians 15:26

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Any ideas of a 'paradise' and leaving the earth, before then, is false and unBiblical.

I agree with this.
 
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1Tonne

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So it isn't a Judgment, per se, just an assembly where the people who have proved their faith

It is a place where everyone will give an account of their life. Like watching a movie of your life and having to answer for everything in the movie.
 
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Timtofly

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Those who believe the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil's deceptions.
Humans live in a dead corruptible body. Why would Jesus lie about being the Resurrection and the Life?

After the Cross all this OT dead talk was a moot point. The NT is not contradicting Job, and Solomon, when they explain death. That point of death changed at the Cross. No one has to wait thousands of years, to be in Christ. The first century church already had the triumph over death. Satan is now lying claiming there is no resurrection until the last day. Yes is was a lie to Eve, they would surely not die. Now that Christ paid the Atonement and embodied the resurrection, the deception is now reversed. It is a lie, to say, surely there is no resurrection until the last day. The Cross was the last day of the OT resurrection. All the OT left their graves and ascended with Jesus Christ. Matthew 27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

No one is waiting for this last day resurrection any more. All that OT dying situation changed at the Cross and the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. From that generation on, those redeemed no longer tasted death. Their souls left this dead corruptible body for a permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5.
 
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eleos1954

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Humans live in a dead corruptible body. Why would Jesus lie about being the Resurrection and the Life?

After the Cross all this OT dead talk was a moot point. The NT is not contradicting Job, and Solomon, when they explain death. That point of death changed at the Cross. No one has to wait thousands of years, to be in Christ. The first century church already had the triumph over death. Satan is now lying claiming there is no resurrection until the last day. Yes is was a lie to Eve, they would surely not die. Now that Christ paid the Atonement and embodied the resurrection, the deception is now reversed. It is a lie, to say, surely there is no resurrection until the last day. The Cross was the last day of the OT resurrection. All the OT left their graves and ascended with Jesus Christ. Matthew 27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

No one is waiting for this last day resurrection any more. All that OT dying situation changed at the Cross and the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. From that generation on, those redeemed no longer tasted death. Their souls left this dead corruptible body for a permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5.

it says many of the saints .... not all of them.

we don't get a new body until Jesus returns.

Not according to Paul ....

1st Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:42

Berean Study Bible
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable (mortal); it is raised imperishable (immortal).

Jesus taught from the OT.
 
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Clare73

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Are The Dead Really Dead?

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did we get here in the first place?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.
Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

The spirits of both the righteous and the wicked return to God. Their bodies return to dust.
Good post. . .straight forward and well done.

1. Their bodies are dead, which is what we mean by "the dead," but their spirits are not because they are immortal.
2. What happens when a person dies?
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.
Two considerations:
1) Ecclesiastes was written by a Jew, of the people of God, and written from that perspective; i.e., he was referring to the people of God, the Jews, not all mankind.
2) At the death of the unrighteous rich man in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus did not locate his spirit with God, but in the agony of the fire of Hades (vv. 22-24).

Authoritative (governing) apostolic NT teaching presents the human spirit of the unrighteous after death, not in oblivion, but in what could be called a holding place until the resurrection, which Jesus identifies as Hades, and not as Gehenna of Luke 12:5.

2. The human spirit is immortal.
There is nothing mysterious about the spirit that returns to God at death. It is the breath of life.
The human spirit of man is more than the breath of life, it also the locus of eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit, neither of which are found in the unbeliever.
3. What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

"The body without the spirit ["breath," is dead." James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him," ] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.
Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.
Actually, in God's book the human spirit does have life, wisdom and feeling, as shown in Luke 16:19-31 above in 2., as well as in
Matthew 22:30-32, where Jesus shows that the human spirit is immortal because God said to Moses, well over 500 years after the deaths of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." God did not say, "I was the God of Abraham. . ."
Jesus said, "He is not the God of the dead (spirits), but of the living (spirits), for to him all are alive," (Luke 20:38); i.e.,

3. there is no annihilation of the human spirit, it is immortal.
These four people are four souls.

4. What is a "soul"?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a person)." Genesis 2:7.
Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.
God's word also teaches that we have spirits as well as souls (Hebrews 4:12), as you stated
above in 1., and above in 2. where I demonstrated that according to Jesus,

4. the human spirit is immortal.
5. Do souls die?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.

Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16).
Your understanding of that verse is in conflict with the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16:22-24, as demonstrated above in 2., that the human spirit is immortal.
Only God is immortal of himself, we are not immortal of ourselves, we cannot make ourselves immortal, our spirits and resurrection bodies are immortal because God makes them immortal.
The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.
You are not considering the whole counsel of God, where there are many different uses of the word "soul" (Heb: nephesh; Gr: psuche), among them being the whole person as an individual (Genesis 12:5, 14:21; Romans 2:9; James 5:20, 1 Peter 3:20, etc.), which is the use of "soul" in

5. Ezekiel 18:20
;Revelation 16:3 teach that persons/individuals, as distinct from just souls, die.
6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.
Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.
However, the NT teaches differently.
1) Jesus presents the spirit of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham and the spirit of the rich man in Hades when they die, not in the grave, nor in oblivion.
2) Likewise, the apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (Philippians 1:21-23), where to die is gain. Now if "to live is Christ," what could possibly be the gain over such in dying, if dying does not mean his spirit will be with Christ, not in the grave or in oblivion.

6. The human spirit does not go into the grave nor into oblivion at death, it goes to be with Christ (OT "bosom of Abraham") or to Hades.
7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.
Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!
Ecclesiastes and Psalms 115:17 are speaking the truth regarding dead bodies.

We know that OT revelation was not complete, and that God's OT revelation was completed in the NT,
so that NT apostolic teaching is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood--from the sacrifices, defilements, and cleansings, to salvation and righteousness by faith apart from faith's works, to all those in Christ also being the seed of Abraham, to God's cutting off of Israel, to all righteousness being from God, etc., etc., etc.

It is in NT apostolic teaching that we learn of eternal life in our spirits, of the Holy Spirit indwelling our spirits, of our spirits being immortal (demonstrated above in 2.), of the word of God dividing between soul and spirit, etc., etc.

7. The incomplete OT revelation of Ecclesiastes and Psalms 115:17 are to be understood in the light of the complete revelation of the NT, where we learn of man's immortal spirit.
Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.
And that is not about their spirits being dead or in oblivion, that is about what Jesus showed in Luke 16:24-26 regarding the immortal spirits of Lazarus and the rich man,

after death, immortal spirits of the unrighteous are unable to contact the immortal spirits of the righteous.
8. But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.
Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).
Jesus calls death "sleep." It is a state of total unconsciousness.

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.
9. The immortal spirit separated from its mortal body at death has no communication with its mortal, dead, decaying body returning to the dirt from which it was formed.

The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.
All will be raised to life for the sheep and goat judgment and their bodies given immortality.
10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Answer: They will be rewarded.
They will be raised, given immortal bodies,
Their formerly mortal bodies will be raised to spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious) physical bodies.
and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.
Their dead bodies are not taken to heaven at death. After death their spirits are dwelling in an eternal house (intermediate state after death, Philippians 1:23), separated from the earthly tents (human body) in which they dwelt, unclothed and incomplete, "groaning and burdened" in their "longing to be clothed" with their heavenly dwelling; i.e., resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1-5).

10. The human body is not taken to heaven at death, the human spirit is with Christ, but in a state of incompleteness without its body.
 
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eleos1954

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Good post. . .straight forward and well done.

Two considerations:
1) Ecclesiastes was written by a Jew, of the people of God, and from that perspective; i.e., he was referring to the people of God, the Jews, not all mankind.
2) At the death of the unrighteous rich man in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus did not locate his spirit with God, but in the agony of the fire of Hades (vv. 22-24).

Authoritative (governing) NT teaching presents the human spirit of the unrighteous after death, not in oblivion, but in what could be called a holding place until the resurrection, which Jesus identifies as Hades, not as Gehenna of Luke 12:5.

2. The human spirit is immortal.

The human spirit of man is more than the breath of life, it also the locus of eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit, neither of which are found in the unbeliever.

Actually, in God's book the human spirit does have life, wisdom and feeling, as shown in Luke 16:19-31 above in 2., as well as in
Matthew 22:30-32, where Jesus shows that the human spirit is immortal because God said to Moses, well over 500 years after the deaths of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." God did not say, "I was the God of Abraham. . ."
Jesus said, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive," (Luke 20:38); i.e.,

3. there is no annihilation of the human spirit.

God's word also teaches that we have spirits as well as souls (Hebrews 4:12), as you stated
above in 1., and above in 2. where I demonstrated that according to Jesus,

4. the human spirit is immortal.

Your understanding of that verse is in conflict with the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16:22-24, as demonstrated above in 2., that the human spirit is immortal.
Only God is immortal in himself, the origin and source of immortality--all comes from him.

You are not considering the whole counsel of God, where there are many different uses of the word "soul" (Heb: nephesh; Gr: psuche), among them being the whole person as an individual (Genesis 12:5, 14:21; Romans 2:9; James 5:20, 1 Peter 3:20, etc.),. which is the use of "soul" in

5. Ezekiel 18:20
and Revelation 16:3 teach that persons/individuals, as distinct from souls, die.

However, the NT teaches differently.
1) Jesus presents the spirit of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham and the spirit of the rich man in Hades when they die, not in the grave, nor in oblivion.
2) Likewise, Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (Philippians 1:21-23), where to die is gain. Now if "to live is Christ," what could possibly be the gain over that in dying, if dying does not mean his spirit will be with Christ, not in the grave or in oblivion.

6. The human spirit does not go into the grave nor into oblivion at death, it goes to be with Christ (OT "bosom of Abraham") or to Hades.

Ecclesiastes and Psalms 115:17 are speaking the truth regarding dead bodies.

We know that OT revelation was not complete, and that God's OT revelation was completed in the NT,
so that NT teaching is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood--from the sacrifices, defilements, and cleansings, to salvation and righteousness by faith apart from faith's works, to all those in Christ also being the seed of Abraham, to God's cutting off of Israel, to all righteousness being from God, etc., etc., etc.

It is in the NT that we learn of eternal life in our spirits, of the Holy Spirit indwelling our spirits, of our spirits being immortal (demonstrated above in 2.), of the word of God dividing between soul and spirit, etc., etc.

7. The incomplete OT revelation of Ecclesiastes and Psalms 115:17 are to be understood in the light of the complete revelation of the NT, where we learn of man's immortal spirit.
And that is not about their spirits being dead or in oblivion, that is about what Jesus showed in Luke 16:24-26 regarding the immortal spirits of Lazarus and the the rich man,

after death, immortal spirits of the unrighteous are unable to contact the immortal spirits of the righteous.

9. The immortal spirit separated from its mortal body at death has no communication with its mortal, dead, decaying body returning to the dirt from which it was formed.


All will be raised to life for the sheep and goat judgment and their bodies given immortality.

Their formerly mortal bodies will be raised to spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious) physical bodies.

Their dead bodies are not taken to heaven at death. After death their spirits are dwelling in an eternal house (intermediate state after death, Philippians 1:23), separated from the earthly tents (human body) in which they dwelt, unclothed and incomplete, "groaning and burdened" in their "longing to be clothed" with their heavenly dwelling; i.e., resurrected body (2 Corinthians 5:1-5).

10. The human body is not taken to heaven at death, the human spirit is with Christ, but in a state of incompleteness without its body.

1 Timothy 6:16

He (God) alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

True or false?
 
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Are The Dead Really Dead?

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did we get here in the first place?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.
Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

The spirits of both the righteous and the wicked return to God. Their bodies return to dust.

2. What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.

There is nothing mysterious about the spirit that returns to God at death. It is the breath of life.

3. What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

"The body without the spirit ["breath," is dead." James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him," ] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.

Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

These four people are four souls.

4. What is a "soul"?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a person)." Genesis 2:7.

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

5. Do souls die?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.

Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

8. But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.
Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

Jesus calls death "sleep." It is a state of total unconsciousness.

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.
10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

The devil's first lie to Eve was "You won't die" - a statement completely contrary to all Scripture.

11. What was the devil's first lie?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.

Answer: Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. "Ye shall not surely die," he said.

Those who believe the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil's deceptions.

12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?

Answer: It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt Exodus 7:11, Woman of Endor 1 Samuel 28:3-25, Sorcerers Daniel 2:2, A certain damsel Acts 16:16-18.)

A Solemn Warning

In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery as he did in Daniel's day to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus' Disciples

Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

13. Do devils really work miracles?

"They are the spirits of devils, working miracles." Revelation 16:14. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24.
Answer: Yes, indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God's elect will not be deceived.

The elect will not be deceived, because they firmly reject everything that is contrary to Scripture.

14. Why will God's people not be deceived?

"They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11. "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

Answer: God's people will know from their earnest study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers who claim to receive special "light" or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

In Moses' day, people who claimed power to communicate with the dead were stoned to death.
15. Back in Moses' day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones." Leviticus 20:27.

Answer: God insisted that wizards and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

No one in God's new kingdom will ever die. Death will cease at the destruction of Satan.
16. Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, ... Neither can they die any more." Luke 20:35, 36. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.

Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God's new kingdom.

Reincarnation is impossible. Because God says all who died, both good and evil, are in their graves.

17. Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing. ... Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.

Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

The Bible Says

After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

Satan's Invention

We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

Those who insist on Scripture proof for all doctrines will not be led astray by Satan.
18. I am thankful for the Bible, which tells us the truth on this sensitive subject of death.


Other considerations


1. Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died?
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the words "to day" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today--when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal--I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.

2. Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is is in always in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.

4. Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being?

Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.

5. Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?

This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no eternal resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).

6. Matthew 10:28 says, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying?

No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)

7. Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?

No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.

8. What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die?

No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).

9. Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection?

No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)

Now think about this …. “IF” you have within yourself a immortal “soul” that goes either to heaven or hell when you die the “IF” the “immortal saved” you go to heaven (eternally) then what is the necessity of Jesus dieing on the cross to provide a way for you TO receive the gift of eternal life (immortality)? “IF” the wicked are condemned to “burn in hell forever” … that IS also immortality …. a tortuous one … but the point is … it is still immortality (eternal). Either way, with this belief one is believing human beings already have within themselves immortality.

No where in the Bible will you find a the phrase immortal soul existing outside of resurrection at the 2nd (or last) coming of Jesus Christ and He at that time He gives unto those written in the book of life eternal life (immortality) referred to at the “first” resurrection. Yes there is more than one resurrection. One for the saved, one for the not saved.

We get new bodies ... our "Physical bodies" are corrupt.

The belief of a "immortal soul" is doing away with the resurrection(s)

This is a very good write up and although I do not agree with all of it, I will copy it into some of my files for future reference.
I agree that we are mortal when on earth. But when Jesus returns in the air and raptures up all of the dead, so believers and non believers at the end of the 1000 year period, they will all change from perishable to imperishable. So both live forever. It just depends on weather the person/soul goes to heaven or if they are thrown into the second death (Hell).
1Cor 15:52-53
and the dead will be raised. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It makes more sense that both non believer and believer are raised to immortality as Rev 14:11 says that there is no rest for the condemned.
Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
These people live through they are in the second death.

People who believe that the rapture only takes the believers are wrong because it states clearly that even the non believers are imperishable in Rev 14:11. If the rapture was correct, then only the believers would be raised up to immortality and the non-believers would perish to nothing in the second death. But it clearly says that the dead do not have rest. Meaning that there soul is alive.
 
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eleos1954

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This is a very good write up and although I do not agree with all of it, I will copy it into some of my files for future reference.
I agree that we are mortal when on earth. But when Jesus returns in the air and raptures up all of the dead, so believers and non believers at the end of the 1000 year period, they will all change from perishable to imperishable. So both live forever. It just depends on weather the person/soul goes to heaven or if they are thrown into the second death (Hell).
1Cor 15:52-53
and the dead will be raised. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It makes more sense that both non believer and believer are raised to immortality as Rev 14:11 says that there is no rest for the condemned.
Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
These people live through they are in the second death.

People who believe that the rapture only takes the believers are wrong because it states clearly that even the non believers are imperishable in Rev 14:11. If the rapture was correct, then only the believers would be raised up to immortality and the non-believers would perish to nothing in the second death. But it clearly says that the dead do not have rest. Meaning that there soul is alive.

no ... the 1st resurrection those are raised taken to heaven and receive immortality.

Those in the 2nd are raised but not given immortality and will be destroyed.

If the thought is the lost are in a burning place for eternity (which is not so) .... that is STILL immortality .... just not a very pleasant one.

Matthew 10:28

King James Bible
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yeah He's going to annihilate them.
 
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Clare73

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The sheep and goat judgment is not the final judgment of all mankind ever to be conceived. It is not even for dead people. It is only to bring Israel out off all nations including present day Israel, which is no different than any other nation. This is a second coming judgment 1000 years before God's GWT judgment.


They are separate judgments. For starters the GWT is after heaven and earth pass away, meaning no one is alive because there is no earth to be alive upon. The sheep and goats are about living people in current nations on a current earth. So yes, there is a 1000 year period between these two judgments, and the first one deals with living humans at the Second Coming. The GWT only deals with dead humans of all time.
Your interpretation of prophetic riddles is in disagreement with authoritative (governing) NT apostolic teaching, in the light of which all Scripture is to be understood.
 
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Clare73

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Show me one verse in Matthew 25:31-46 that mentions dead people.
How do you judge dead people?

Only live people are at the judgment.
Your interpretation is adding to the Word. It also contradicts Revelation 20:11-15.

The light in these two chapters explains the difference between the two judgments.
 
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1Tonne

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They all occur in the last day.
Saying that the resurrection, rapture, second coming and judgment all happen in one day does not make sound NT Teaching.

The last day is the day of Judgement over everyone.
How can it all be on the last day when there is a thousand year period and then also in Rev20:3 it says that Satan is released for a short time.
 
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Clare73

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Where does it say that there is no time?
The Scriptures are not all in one place. The truth is seen in the facts of their linkage:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurence,

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats (all mankind),
thereby making the resurrection to be of all mankind.
 
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1Tonne

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The resurrection (of the dead martyrs who rain for 1000 years) and the rapture that happens after the resurrection of the dead are not on the same day.
1Cor15:51-52 can be read:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, but the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
The dead martrys rise first and reign for 1000 year and then the rapture happens where everyone is taken to judgement.
 
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Clare73

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1 Timothy 6:16

He (God) alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

True or false?
Jesus presented the spirits of Lazarus and the rich man as living after death (Luke 16:19-31).
True or false?

Jesus said the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living (Luke 20:38).
True or false?

God alone is immortal of himself. We cannot be immortal of ourselves, make ourselves immortal, our spirits and resurrection bodies are immortal only because God makes them immortal.
 
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Saying that the resurrection, rapture, second coming and judgment all happen in one day does not make sound NT Teaching.

The last day is the day of Judgement over everyone.
How can it all be on the last day when there is a thousand year period and then also in Rev20:3 it says that Satan is released for a short time.
Keeping in mind that is your interpretation of a prophetic riddle (dark saying) which God said are not spoken clearly in their meaning (Numbers 12:8), and subject to more than one interpretation because it is not spoken clearly in its meaning, and where your interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching of the apostles, the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.
 
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