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The real rapture that makes sense

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1Tonne, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    I have looked up on the CF the word rapture expecting to find a thread that is similar to what I believe the rapture is but I have not been able to find a similar rapture theory. To me, this theory made way more sense than any of the other theories. (I am sure this is already out there but I might as well post it up)

    In 1Thes 4:17 it says “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    The English phrase “caught up” (NASB) translates the Greek word harpazõ, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” This is the Greek word from which the English word “harpoon” is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. So the word Rapture does appear in the Bible but the question then becomes, who are “we who are alive” and when does this happen?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
    "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

    After reading 1Thes 4:13-18, we can conclude that the people who are alive will not go to be with Jesus until “the dead in Christ” have been raised first. So, the question is, who are these dead believers in Christ? In Revelation 20:4-6 it speaks about this first resurrection of the dead. This verse gives us insight into who these believers are and what they do. These believers who are raised first are not all the believers, but some who were willing to give their lives in the name of Christ during the time of the tribulation. They come back with him and reign for 1000 years.

    Revelation 20:4-6
    "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

    So what 1Thes 4:13-18 is saying is that the martyrs are raised first and they reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then those that remain (Christian and non-Christian) will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air after the 1000 years (for the day of Judgment). So, the rapture that everyone talks about could actually be at the very end of the 1000 years when God gathers everyone, Christian and Non-Christian for judgement. Everyone will be “caught up together”, or “Snatched up” all at the same time.

    In Matthew 25:31-33 it says that we are all gathered together at the same time. That is non-Christians and Christians at the same time. The sheep and Goats at the same time. Then Jesus will separate the non-Christians from the Christians at the Judgement seat.

    Matt 25:31-33
    "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. “And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left."
    Matthew continues to explain the judgement further in the remainder of Matthew 25

    In Rev 20:12 and Romans 14:10 it says that everyone will be judged; So, those that believe in Christ will be judged too (Hebrews 10:30).

    Rev 20:12
    "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books"
    Heb 10:30
    For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, ”says the Lord. And again, The LORD will judge His people.

    After God gathers everyone, they are judged. This makes sense as there are many people who believe in Christ but they do not repent. So to find the true believers of Christ each person will give an account of how they lived. Did they turn from their sin, and did they really have faith in the sacrifice that Jesus did? If so, God will grant them mercy.

    Another verse that people who believe in the rapture use is 1Corinthians 15:51-52.
    1 Corinthians 15:51-52
    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
    This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non Christians as well as Christians. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

    So yes, there is a rapture but not as a lot of Christians think. It is the final trumpet call in Revelation.

    I hope this makes sense. If you do think that this is not correct, please let me know how as I would like to learn. Cheers and God Bless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Actually when Paul wrote "the dead in Christ rise first" he refers to all of them. Revelation 20 simply focuses upon one small group of them but when the beheaded rise, so will all the other believers.



    Non-believers are not raptured and the rapture happens at the second coming not after the thousand years.




    There is no rapture in that passage. By that timeframe the rapture was already completed.
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    No; it doesn't.
    There is the Seven Bowls after the Seventh Trumpet and we are told to endure until the end.

    Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory; just cannot see or understand that belief.

    It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, +

    People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves, that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our purpose and our destiny!

    But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth, they listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers, and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any Judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

    This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not.

    So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible.

    The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4
     
  4. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    Revelation 20:12, Romans 14:10 and Hebrews 10:30 all say that everyone will be judged. Everyone.

    The only people who are not judged are the martyrs of Christ ("beheaded for their witness" Rev 20:4) as the second death has no hold on them. Death has no hold. This is how they come back to life again and reign with Christ for 1000 years.
    Rev 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
    Rev 2:10-11
    “........Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’
    Everyone else has to be judged.
    If there is a rapture, how do the dead Christians come back to life? They cannot. Only those that have shed their own blood come back. The martyrs. They became a sacrifice themselves.

    If only the believers are taken up in the rapture how are they distinguished from the non-believers ?
    Matt 7:21 says
    "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
    He that does the will of the Father. This means those that obey. Obedience will be the distinguishing factor. Distinguished during the Judgement as it shows the overflowing of someone's heart.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    You just said everyone will be judged and now you say some aren't? That's wrong. They are judged also:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Those on the thrones judge the beheaded people and they are resurrected.


    There is no "if" there is a rapture. There is a rapture. Also, the rapture is not the same thing as a resurrection. "how do the dead Christians come back to life?" the resurrection of course.
     
  6. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    That would be correct if everything in Revelation was in chronological order. But a lot of the things overlap. For instance the 7th trumpet mentioned in Rev 11:15-19 ushers in Gods final Judgment which is at Rev 20:12. This same trumpet is also mentioned in 1Cor 15:52 which is the trumpet that brings in the time of Judgment
    1Cor 15:52
    in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    Rev 20:12
    And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[fn] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    So overall, things overlap.

    You may not have got the gist of what I wrote. In essence, I do not believe there is a rapture as most people do. I don't believe there is no special "snatching away" apart from at the final Judgement where Christ will Judge everyone.
    1Cor 15:52
    in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    If there is a rapture, this is when I believe it will happen.
     
  7. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    That does look correct. I can accept that. The Martyrs could have been judged and then blessed with life.
    The rest of what I said still stands.
    The "dead in Christ" are still the ones that are risen first. Not the believers.

    Where in the bible does it show that the resurrection is different from the rapture?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The problem is not the rapture. The church has taught Armageddon is the Second Coming. It is not. That is the problem.
     
  9. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Judgement takes place BEFORE He returns .... judgement takes place in heaven and THEN He returns and takes all the saved (1st resurrection) to heaven for the 1,000 years.

    Revelation 22

    Berean Literal Bible
    "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as is his work.

    The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels.

    At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.
    The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
     
  10. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    That is interesting. When do you believe it will be?
    On a similar note, the Armageddon is mentioned in the 6th bowl in Revelation 16:12-16. In the first part of this prophecy it mentions the great river Euphrates drying up. If you google, "Euphrates river drying up", you will see a whole lot of articles on it as it is happening right now. In the las 12 months it has decreased a lot. It is not fully dried up but it is definitely concerning. (Something to take note of)
     
  11. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    So you are saying that everyone is judged before they are raised out of the grave? So we will not be at our own judgement? Judged first and then raised does not make sense.
    Matt 25:31
    And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another,

    Matt25 says that we will be all gathered (raised) and then separated (judged)

    In Revelation 20 it also says that it is the first resurrection and then the judgement. The first resurrection of the martyrs takes place first in verses 4-5 and then the judgement is verses 11-15. Revelation 20:4-5 specifically says that the first resurrection is the Martyrs and not all of the believers. It also mentions these same martyrs who are in white robs in Rev 6:11 and in Rev 7:9-17.
    Rev 6:11
    Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
    Rev 7:14
    ".......“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    These people who are taken up are not all of the believers but only the martyrs of Christ.

    I find it hard to accept this because the first resurrection is specifically those that are martyrs and not all of the believers. To me it makes more sense that Christ returns to earth with "The Dead in Christ" (martyrs) and defeats the antichrist and then reigns for a 1000 years from Jerusalem.
     
  12. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    I don't think I really answered this very well in the last post.
    In Rev 20:4 it says that this is the martyrs and that they reign for 1000 years. It does not say anyone else will reign. How can we presume that every believer will reign for 1000 years when it says specifically that it is only this small group.
     
  13. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    There are records of everyone's lives kept in heaven (book of life) .... the judgement is made in accordance to those records .... not our physically being there.

    There is judgement of the saints that happens at the first resurrection (of the saved) and then later (after the 1,000 years spent in heaven) there is final judgement (of the lost) and then God destroys everything (necessary to destroy sin and death for eternity) and makes everything anew.

    1 Corinthians 6

    1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

    When He returns His reward is with Him.

    Revelation 22:12
    11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

    Isaiah 62:11
    Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the ends of the earth, "Say to Daughter Zion: See, your Savior comes! Look, His reward is with Him, and His recompense goes before Him."

    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
     
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    A problem arises here, in mixing your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles with authoritative (governing) NT teaching.

    God told Miriam he did not speak clearly but in dark sayings (riddles) to the prophets, but to Moses he spoke clearly (Numbers 12:8), the point being that prophecy is not given clearly but in riddles.
    And because prophecy is given in riddles (dark sayings), it is subject to more than one interpretation.

    Your insertion of a prophetic riddle into authoritative (governing) NT teaching is mixing oil and water, and creating a conflict of doctrine.

    For authoritative NT teaching presents only one physical resurrection of all mankind in "the last day,"
    with the rapture and final judgment.

    Interpretation of a prophetic riddle to mean more than one physical resurrection contradicts the authoritative (governing) NT teaching into which you insert it.
    Well actually, that is not what 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is saying, in its own context, where "martyrs being raised first" contradicts NT teaching there.

    In context, (v.13) - the Thessalonians were thinking, as it was commonly thought at that time in the NT, that the rapture would occur in their lifetime, and when some died they became concerned that these would miss the rapture because they were in the grave.
    Paul is assuring them there that the living saints when Jesus comes would not be raptured without the deceased saints, that "the dead in Christ would rise first, after that those who are still alive and are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

    Paul is not teaching a 1000-year gap between a rapture of martyrs and a second rapture of the rest of all Christians. That's wrong personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle whose meaning is not certain, wrong because the interpretation contradicts authoritative (governing) NT teaching. Another interpretation is needed, in agreement with governing NT teaching.
    The NT teaches one, and only one, rapture of all those in Christ of all time, at the end of time.
    You're correct about the rapture occurring at the end of time (in the last day with the resurrection), and that is the only rapture according to NT teaching, there is no previous rapture of anything.
    However, you are seriously in error about unbelievers being raptured. That interpretation of the prophetic riddle is totally contrary to NT teaching.
    Yes, and the NT teaches that this final judgment occurs in the last day with the resurrection of all mankind, the rapture of all saints, and the second coming.
    Yes, that is the one and only resurrection, of all mankind, with the rapture, second coming and final judgment all in the last day.
    The NT does not teach that unbelievers will have spiritual (sinless, glorious by the Holy Spirit) physical bodies, as will the believers at the resurrection.
    It is the one and only rapture, in the last day (end of time) occurring with the resurrection, second coming and final judgment, all in the last day.
    You may have with a lot of things right here, for you are correct in locating the rapture at the end of time.
    And the NT also locates the resurrection, the second coming and the final judgment with it at the end of time, "the last day."

    The rule for correct interpretation of these events of resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment is NT teaching, which teaches they all occur together at the last day. . .where it seems you may be locating them also, except for the prophetic riddle of the "first resurrection."

    Good job! You're making more sense than most!
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  15. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    Rev 20:12
    "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God"
    This says that they are there. Do you have a scripture to show that they are not there for judgment?

    It specifically says that these saints are the martyrs who were beheaded. You cannot change scripture to fit a theory when it simply does not say "all of the saints"


    The reward being the martyrs who will reign with him.
     
  16. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    Your personal interpretation of NT teaching (your opinion) verses my opinion of NT.
    Opinion verses opinion.
    You need bible verses to prove the rapture but the verses that people use can easily be interpreted in another way that makes even more sense.

    What is the authority of the NT teaching? What makes it 100% correct? Is it just opinion vs opinion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    God did not leave his people with only "opinion."
    He left them with language in words that have definitions.

    The OT is not equivalent to the NT.
    NT revelation governs the meaning of the OT.

    Uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles is not equivalent to NT didactics.
    All interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching.
    The words of the language in the NT teaching by the apostle Paul are very clear about the rapture.
    It occurs after the resurrection with the second coming and final judgment.
    The apostles.
    Are you of the opinion that apostolic teaching can be incorrect?

    The definitions of the words of the NT language are its correct and only meaning.

    Only when language and the definitions of words are just opinion vs. opinion.

    Are we descending into an ignorance where language has no specific meaning, and we have to invent the wheel all over again?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The words. A resurrection is to come back to physical life after being physically dead. A rapture is a moving of something physical, usually upwards but not limited to that one direction.

    Here is an example of both happening but not at the same exact time.

    Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    That is a resurrection.


    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    That is a rapture.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
    Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    All overcomers will reign the nations with a rod of iron, not just the beheaded saints. Again, Revelation 20 only focuses upon that one small group but that doesn't mean only they will reign with Christ.
     
  20. 1Tonne

    1Tonne New Member

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    I agree with the new testament

    It occurs after the resurrection and the second coming. So at the final judgement.

    If there is assumption added to the NT teaching, then it can be incorrect. It says the martyrs and only the martyrs come back in the first resurrection but the rapture teachers say that it is all believers.

    Ignorance could be claimed on both sides of the discussion. I may be ignorant as I cannot understand your view point and you may be ignorant because you do not understand my point of view.
     
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