The real rapture that makes sense

[1Tonne]

I understand Revelation to be figurative.

That means you can put your own interpretation onto it.
I try to go down the literal route. So one verse should confirm another. Which mostly they do. In saying this, I still struggle to fit everything together but over time, I have found other verses that then help with the theory that I have. One verse being the Rev 1:7 that I just noticed yesterday.

Good find. . . but is not the context all the way back to v.12 referring to believers only?

Verses 12-14 do not refer to just believers. It is actually referring to everyone, but especially Christ. If we do not believe that Christ is raised, then we as believers have no hope. But just as Christ was raised, so will all the dead.
You will notice that in verse 18 it then talks specifically about the believers saying "Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
So if Jesus died and did not come back to life, then neither will the unbelievers and also those who believe who have died will not come back to life.

 

[Clare73]

That means you can put your own interpretation onto it.

For me it means two things: that a literal interpretation is in disagreement with too much authoritative NT apostolic teaching, which presents only one resurrection of all mankind in the last day,
and that I must interpret those things in a way that does not disagree with NT apostolic teaching, which rules out a lot of the ways literalists interpret it.

I try to go down the literal route. So one verse should confirm another. Which mostly they do. In saying this, I still struggle to fit everything together but over time, I have found other verses that then help with the theory that I have. One verse being the Rev 1:7 that I just noticed yesterday.
Verses 12-14 do not refer to just believers. It is actually referring to everyone, but especially Christ. If we do not believe that Christ is raised, then we as believers have no hope. But just as Christ was raised, so will all the dead.
You will notice that in verse 18 it then talks specifically about the believers saying "Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
So if Jesus died and did not come back to life, then neither will the unbelievers and also those who believe who have died will not come back to life.

I think I agree with you on that. . .thanks.

 

[1Tonne]

No, that is not correct. The reason being....

The rapture is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. And is sometime before the peace and safety, feeling of being at ease, is shattered.

I believe that there is the millennial reign of Christ and this is where people are saying peace and safety, then satin who was bound is released and causes destruction. Then the rapture happens. Seems to work.

 

[Clare73]

I believe that there is the millennial reign of Christ and this is where people are saying peace and safety, then satin who was bound is released and causes destruction. Then the rapture happens. Seems to work.

And I suspect the "millennial" reign is figurative of the church age, where Christ reigns now (Ephesians 1:20-23; Mark 16:19) with the saints (Ephesians 2:6), with the first resurrection being from eternal death into eternal life in the new birth, which secures from the second death.

This works with NT apostolic teaching which presents only one resurrection of all mankind in the last day, and the new birth securing from the second death.

 

[1Tonne]

And I suspect the "millennial" reign is figurative of the church age, with the first resurrection being from eternal death into eternal life in the new birth, which secures from the second death.

You should try to look at it as literal before figurative. You will find that is will make sense. If it makes sense, we have no need to put a figurative interpretation to it.

 

[Clare73]

You should try to look at it as literal before figurative. You will find that is will make sense.
If it makes sense, we have no need to put a figurative interpretation to it.

However, that is not a rule for interpreting prophetic riddles, whose meanings God said he does not speak clearly (Numbers 12:8).

And literal here means two physical resurrections, which is not in agreement with authoritative apostolic teaching.

See post #177 for NT apostolic teaching regarding the "millennium."

 

[Douggg]

I believe that there is the millennial reign of Christ and this is where people are saying peace and safety, then satin who was bound is released and causes destruction. Then the rapture happens. Seems to work.

It does not work.

When the peace and safety is shattered, the beginning of the the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night (1Thessalonians5:2), when God's wrath (1Thessalonians5:9) is poured out, God's wrath is poured out in the bowls of wrath during the great tribulation.

Which for believers to avoid the great tribulation is in Luke 21:34-36, and Jesus's promise in Revelation 3:10.

 

[keras]

It does not work.

When the peace and safety is shattered, the beginning of the the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night (1Thessalonians5:2), when God's wrath (1Thessalonians5:9) is poured out, God's wrath is poured out in the bowls of wrath during the great tribulation.

Which for believers to avoid the great tribulation is in Luke 21:34-36, and Jesus's promise in Revelation 3:10.

Your ideas do not work either.
Why would Jesus come as a thief when the GT commences? That 3 1/2 year period will start when the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple and declares himself to be God.

The terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath will be the unexpected event which commences all the end time events, culminating with the glorious Return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Sixth Seal; Rev 6:12-17
How can people be saying: Peace and safety - 1 Thess 5:3; when the AC conquers the holy people? Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:5-8

 

[Douggg]

Your ideas do not work either.
Why would Jesus come as a thief when the GT commences?

You mis-read my post. I did not write - Jesus comes as a thief when the great tribulation begins.

The "Day of the Lord" begins like a thief in the night.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

That 3 1/2 year period will start when the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple and declares himself to be God.

You have the triggering factor to begin the great tribulation wrong.

The great tribulation is 1335 days long which is more than 3 1/2 years.

And the great tribulation begins not with the Antichrist sitting in the temple declaring himself to be God, but with the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place (the temple mount courtyard - signaling the Jews to flee). The aod will be the image of the beast.

_______________________________________

Antichrist act of sitting in the temple, the transgression of desolation - triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The Abomination of Desolation setup, standing, on the temple mount courtyard - triggers the great tribulation.
_______________________________________

Please look at my diagram. It has the Day of the Lord on it, and the AoD, and the great tribulation.

And headings of when the person is the little horn (before the 70th week begins), the Antichrist (false messiah age), and the beast (the aod setup).

The rapture can happen anytime, between now and when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

 

[keras]

Please look at my diagram. It has the Day of the Lord on it, and the AoD, and the great tribulation.

Your charts are just so much rubbish and error, I just scroll over them.
Anytime rapture to heaven, is just a joke, a wishful hope that has absolutely no Bible support, pre, mid or post.

The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, is a ONE DAY EVENT;
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, Isaiah 47:9

 

[Douggg]

Your charts are just so much rubbish and error, I just scroll over them.
Anytime rapture to heaven, is just a joke, a wishful hope that has absolutely no Bible support, pre, mid or post.

The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, is a ONE DAY EVENT;
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, Isaiah 47:9

I just updated my rapture chart. Includes the little horn > the prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast... sequence.

 

[1Tonne]

Another thing that I just found that may make people think differently.
This was spoken of earlier in this thread but I could not find it to put the quote up (someone else may know where it is).
I had said that I believed the martyrs do not get judged as the second death has no hold on them and it was pointed out to me that they do get judged because at the start of Rev 4:20 is says that John saw in his vision "thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them". This can make you think that the people on these seats are judging the beheaded martyrs.
But I have just read something that makes me rethink this.

Rev 20:4 KJV
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Rev 20:4 can be looked at 2 ways.
The first way it can be looked at is that the beheaded people are judged by those that sit on thrones. But the second way of looking at it is that John was having a vision and he is describing what he sees. So what he sees is the thrones and he also saw those that sat on them. He then does into detail about the people that sat on the thrones. They are those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. It then goes onto say that these people reigned with Christ for 1000 years.
This second interpretation would make more sense as the Great White Throne Judgement is still to come. This would then mean that there is still only one Judgement.

 

[Acts29]

I have looked up on the CF the word rapture expecting to find a thread that is similar to what I believe the rapture is but I have not been able to find a similar rapture theory. To me, this theory made way more sense than any of the other theories. (I am sure this is already out there but I might as well post it up)

In 1Thes 4:17 it says “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

The English phrase “caught up” (NASB) translates the Greek word harpazõ, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” This is the Greek word from which the English word “harpoon” is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. So the word Rapture does appear in the Bible but the question then becomes, who are “we who are alive” and when does this happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

After reading 1Thes 4:13-18, we can conclude that the people who are alive will not go to be with Jesus until “the dead in Christ” have been raised first. So, the question is, who are these dead believers in Christ? In Revelation 20:4-6 it speaks about this first resurrection of the dead. This verse gives us insight into who these believers are and what they do. These believers who are raised first are not all the believers, but some who were willing to give their lives in the name of Christ during the time of the tribulation. They come back with him and reign for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

So what 1Thes 4:13-18 is saying is that the martyrs are raised first and they reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then those that remain (Christian and non-Christian) will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air after the 1000 years (for the day of Judgment). So, the rapture that everyone talks about could actually be at the very end of the 1000 years when God gathers everyone, Christian and Non-Christian for judgement. Everyone will be “caught up together”, or “Snatched up” all at the same time.

In Matthew 25:31-33 it says that we are all gathered together at the same time. That is non-Christians and Christians at the same time. The sheep and Goats at the same time. Then Jesus will separate the non-Christians from the Christians at the Judgement seat.

Matt 25:31-33
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. “And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left."
Matthew continues to explain the judgement further in the remainder of Matthew 25

In Rev 20:12 and Romans 14:10 it says that everyone will be judged; So, those that believe in Christ will be judged too (Hebrews 10:30).

Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books"
Heb 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, ”says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.

After God gathers everyone, they are judged. This makes sense as there are many people who believe in Christ but they do not repent. So to find the true believers of Christ each person will give an account of how they lived. Did they turn from their sin, and did they really have faith in the sacrifice that Jesus did? If so, God will grant them mercy.

Another verse that people who believe in the rapture use is 1Corinthians 15:51-52.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non Christians as well as Christians. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

So yes, there is a rapture but not as a lot of Christians think. It is the final trumpet call in Revelation.

I hope this makes sense. If you do think that this is not correct, please let me know how as I would like to learn. Cheers and God Bless.

Wisdom 3:1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God [<Psalm 14:5], and there shall no torment touch them. [>POV of the left behind.] 2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery, 3 And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. 4 For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality.

4:7 The righteous, however, have come to an end, yet shall they be in rest. ... 10 They pleased God, and were loved by Him: so that living among sinners they were taken up. 11 Yea speedily they were taken away, lest that wickedness should alter their understanding, or deceit beguile their soul. 12 For the bewitching of wickedness does obscure things that are honest; and the wandering of lust does undermine the simple mind. 13 He, being made perfect in a short time, fulfilled a long time: 14 For his soul pleased the Lord: therefore He hastened to take him away from among the wicked. 15 This the people saw, and understood it not, neither they lay this up in their minds, that His grace and mercy is with His saints, and that He has respect unto His chosen.

 

[1Tonne]

Your post lost me a little

Anyway, I often view the dead righteous as those that have given their lives for Christ. Not all dead believers. Believers and non believers will be judged at the GWT judgement.

 

[keras]

Wisdom 3:1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God

There are great Words in the Wisdom of Solomon:

The Spirit of Wisdom is kindly toward mortals, but she will not hold a blasphemer blameless for their words, because God, who sees clearly into every heart, is a witness to everyone’s words and actions. Therefore no one can utter injustice and not be found out, nor will justice overlook a sinner at the Judgement. Do not court death by leading a crooked life, do not draw disaster upon yourself by your own actions. For God did not make death and He takes no pleasure in the destruction of any living thing. But the godless, by their deeds and words have made a pact with death.

The just and righteous person, even one who has died an untimely death, will be at rest. Even after death, a righteous person will shame the godless still alive, they see it but do not lay to heart the truth that those whom God has chosen will enjoy His grace and mercy and He comes to the help of His holy people.

The hope of the godless is like smoke that the wind blows away, but the just live forever - their reward is in the Lord’s keeping and He will protect them with His Right Hand.

The Lord will cover Himself from head to foot with the armour of His wrath and make His creation His weapon against His enemies. His Holiness will be an invisible shield and with the sharp sword of His relentless anger, the bolts of lightning will fly straight to their mark upon His frenzied foes. The fiery arrows from His bow in the clouds leap to their target and the artillery of His resentment will let fly a fury of hail. The waters of the sea will rage over them and the rivers will wash them relentlessly away. A great tempest will rise against them and scatter them like chaff before a whirlwind. So lawlessness will devastate the whole world and evildoing will overthrow kingdoms.

The true beginning of wisdom is the desire to learn and a concern for learning means love toward Wisdom. The love of Wisdom means the keeping of the Laws and to keep the Laws is a warrant of immortality.
Ref: Wisdom of Solomon 1:6-16, 5:14-25 REB Apocrypha.

‘The Spirit of Wisdom’, The Lord Jesus Christ. Proverbs 8:22-31, 1 Cor. 10:4, Col. 2:3

‘make the creation His weapon’, The Lord will use a seemingly natural event to carry out His judgement and punishment upon the godless. Isaiah 30:26

‘an invisible shield’, The Lord will not be seen during this event. Psalms 18:11

‘bolts of lightning, fiery arrows from His bow in the clouds’, The only literal explanation for these effects is a CME explosion of the suns surface. Isaiah 39:26, Habakkuk 3:4

‘the sea will rage over them’. Huge tsunamis will slosh from side to side of every ocean and lake. Jeremiah 51:42. Amos 9:6

‘change the whole world’, This proves that this is an event still to happen, it mostly affects the Lord’s enemies and our modern infrastructure will be severely damaged, but most people will survive. A One World Government will be formed, and for those who have kept their faith in the Lord, every faithful Christian: they will be motivated to travel to and live in the Holy Land. ‘He comes to the help of His Holy people’. Psalms 107

 

[Timtofly]

Another thing that I just found that may make people think differently.
This was spoken of earlier in this thread but I could not find it to put the quote up (someone else may know where it is).
I had said that I believed the martyrs do not get judged as the second death has no hold on them and it was pointed out to me that they do get judged because at the start of Rev 4:20 is says that John saw in his vision "thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them". This can make you think that the people on these seats are judging the beheaded martyrs.
But I have just read something that makes me rethink this.

Rev 20:4 KJV
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Rev 20:4 can be looked at 2 ways.
The first way it can be looked at is that the beheaded people are judged by those that sit on thrones. But the second way of looking at it is that John was having a vision and he is describing what he sees. So what he sees is the thrones and he also saw those that sat on them. He then does into detail about the people that sat on the thrones. They are those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. It then goes onto say that these people reigned with Christ for 1000 years.
This second interpretation would make more sense as the Great White Throne Judgement is still to come. This would then mean that there is still only one Judgement.

This would mean those beheaded would never be judged once in their entire existence, dead or alive. They would never have to give an account of their life ever. They do not stand at the GWT.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

You have given more authority to those beheaded, than even the church and saints of all time. As your claim states it is not the church sitting on those thrones, but those beheaded.

 

[1Tonne]

This would mean those beheaded would never be judged once in their entire existence, dead or alive. They would never have to give an account of their life ever. They do not stand at the GWT.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

You have given more authority to those beheaded, than even the church and saints of all time. As your claim states it is not the church sitting on those thrones, but those beheaded.

You are correct. I do not think that these people will be judged. (I could be wrong but I could also be correct. Either way, I do not mind)

In Rev 2:11
‘The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
"The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says" gives the impression that there is some mystery for those that overcome by becoming a sacrifice themselves.

Rev 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”
"their deeds will follow them". What was the last deed they done? They sacrificed themselves for their belief in Christ. What an amazing thing to do.

Rev 7:14-17 Says that these martyrs are already with God. How can they be already with God when the Judgement is still yet to come? No one can be with God unless he has been justified in some way. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb and God has given them the crown of life. There last act was that they gave their lives for his names sake.

Also, I do think that it is the martyrs that are sitting on the thrones who reign with Christ for 1000 years and not us believers (the church). It does say specifically that it is the martyrs who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark.
I believe it is misinterpretation to say it is the Church when it actually says who these people are that rule with Christ for 1000 years. When we say it is the church, it is like we are trying to make it fit a theory and we are willing to believe anything to make it fit. We make something that is correct and actual and then turn it into a riddle when there is no need for that.