The real rapture that makes sense

[Clare73]

The resurrection (of the dead martyrs who rain for 1000 years) and the rapture that happens after the resurrection of the dead are not on the same day.
1Cor15:51-52 can be read:

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, but the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
The dead martrys rise first and reign for 1000 year and then the rapture happens where everyone is taken to judgement.

And that reading is not in agreement with other authoritative apostolic teaching.

Keeping in mind that is your personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle (dark saying) which meaning is not spoken clearly, and where your interpretation of it is not in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching of the apostles.

It might be helpful to review post #140 which shows why NT teaching allows no 1000 years between the resurrection and rapture.

 

[1Tonne]

The problems I have with your interpretation is that you turn it into a riddle when it does not need to be. Then you use excuses like "Prophetic Riddle" to excuse the pitfalls in your interpretation.
Everything works if you read it literal. It does not need to be a riddle.

 

[Clare73]

The problems I have with your interpretation is that you turn it into a riddle when it does not need to be. Then you use excuses like "Prophetic Riddle" to excuse the pitfalls in your interpretation.
Everything works if you read it literal. It does not need to be a riddle.

I take God at his word that he gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings) and does not speak their meanings clearly (Numbers 12:8).

And nothing works if it is in disagreement with authoritative (governing) NT apostolic teaching, which does not allow 1,000 years between the resurrection and the rapture, as demonstrated in post #140.
Is it more important to you that your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles be true rather than NT apostolic teaching be true?

 

[1Tonne]

Keeping in mind that is your interpretation of a prophetic riddle (dark saying) which God said are not spoken clearly in their meaning (Numbers 12:8), and subject to more than one interpretation because it is not spoken clearly in its meaning, and where your interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching of the apostles, the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

The way I interpret the these prophecies, although they are pretty straight forward, they are still very hard for people to understand (Although I do not see how). Seems to me it is like a dark saying because so many struggle with it.

 

[1Tonne]

Already read post 140

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33)

Jesus does not locate the resurrection of the dead martyrs on the last day and it is also not the rapture. That is your interpretation of it. John 6:39 says nothing of the resurrection of the dead martyrs as mentioned in Rev 20:4-5. It is talking about the final taking up of everyone at the last trumpet as mentioned in 1Thes 4:16-17
An important thing to note with Rev 20:4-5 is that these people where beheaded and that no one else apart from these martyrs will be raised. It says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". You cannot add that all will be raised by saying that 1Cor 15:52 says that everyone will be. That means both verses are in conflict. But they do not need to be in conflict if you read 1Thes 4 correctly.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
The dead rising 1000 years before the others are caught up.

Check out the Strong's Biblical usage of the word "and". Remember also, that this is a prophecy and that the people who translated it, did not know what these prophecies actually were. So one word like this can change the entire meaning. In fact, this one word, if it is changed, deletes all the rapture argument. This in itself is rather cool. Kind of like God hid it from many people. A bit like a dark saying.

And that reading is not in agreement with other authoritative apostolic teaching.

Keeping in mind that is your personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle (dark saying) which meaning is not spoken clearly, and where your interpretation of it is not in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching of the apostles.

This is really sounding like you are using NT Teaching, Apostolic Teaching, Dark Sayings and Prophetic riddles to justify wrong interpretation. Try to answer questions using scripture to back you up instead of using these words to justify. The bible should be able to explain itself with other scripture but so far all I have seen from you is personal interpretation of dark sayings and some of it is in conflict with itself or you are adding to it (like martyrs and the believers are raised at the same time even though it says only the martyrs).

 

[1Tonne]

I think I might have to call it quits with this thread again. We seem to have come to an impass. I have enjoyed the conversation and to be honest, I do not mind if I am wrong. I guess we will all find out someday.
God Bless all you guys. (Especially Clair73. You were a legend in this thread)
Please do not post something really interesting on here otherwise I will look double minded.

 

[keras]

Our destiny and our great privilege:

The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath. We pass safely thru it all.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say; Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

 

[Clare73]

The way I interpret the these prophecies, although they are pretty straight forward, they are still very hard for people to understand (Although I do not see how).
Seems to me it is like a dark saying because so many struggle with it.

But I'm sure you realize that it is a dark saying because God said that he gives prophecy in dark sayings, not speaking their meanings clearly.

And I don't find the words hard to understand, I do find the meanings can be interpreted more than one way, and most of the personal interpretations I see are in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching, which governs and, therefore, makes those interpretations incorrect, because the word of God does not have contradictory meanings.

 

[Clare73]

Already read post 140.

Thanks.

Jesus does not locate the resurrection of the dead martyrs on the last day and it is also not the rapture.

I have no issue with the dead martyrs.

However, much interpretation of prophetic riddles has issues with apostolic teaching, such as:
locating the resurrection, rapture, second coming or judgment of the sheep and goats other than
in the last day;
having Jesus leave heaven before the last day for an "appearing" or "revealing;"
having more than one bodily resurrection, or rapture, or second coming, or judgment.

That is your interpretation of it.

John 6:39 says nothing of the resurrection of the dead martyrs as mentioned in Rev 20:4-5. It is talking about the final taking up of everyone at the last trumpet as mentioned in 1Thes 4:16-17

I have no issue with the bodily resurrection of the dead martyrs.
However, NT apostolic teaching presents only one physical bodily resurrection of all mankind in the last day.

An important thing to note with Rev 20:4-5 is that these people where beheaded and that no one else apart from these martyrs will be raised.

I understand that is what the words state, but I do not agree that is their meaning, because that meaning is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching, while the important thing to note is that God has said he does not speak the meanings of prophetic riddles (dark sayings) clearly, whereas you treat them as though they are literal.

Revelation is like Daniel, both are the sum of prophecy, Daniel for the end of the OT church and Revelation for the end of the NT church.
The structure of the visions in Daniel is the key to the structure of the visions in Revelation.
The vision of the statue in Daniel 2 was not literal, it represented kingdoms,
Likewise, the visions in Revelation are not literal, they are representations of the completion of God's decrees regarding the NT church,
as the visions in Daniel were representations of the completion of God's decrees regarding the OT church in the NT church (Daniel 2:44-45).

Revelation 20:1-6 could be figuratively speaking of the church age and all the suffering-for-Christ saints who were reborn (raised, resurrected) from spiritual death into eternal life, and who reign in the church age now (Ephesians 2:6) with Christ now (Ephesians 1:20-23). It could be, it also could not be.
But this broad outline at least enjoys no disagreement with NT apostolic teaching.

It says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished".

I'm trying to show here how the prophetic riddles of Revelation can be understood in more than one way, by presenting an alternative interpretation for Revelation 20:1-6 as an example; i.e.,
the first resurrection could be a figurative distinction between the
spiritual "resurrection" all the born-again ("martyred"; i..e., 'suffering," saints) raised from spiritual death into eternal life at their new birth, secured from the second death, and the
bodily physical resurrection of all mankind which is actually the only resurrection of the not born-again rest-of mankind in the last day.

You cannot add that all will be raised by saying that 1Cor 15:52 says that everyone will be. That means both verses are in conflict. But they do not need to be in conflict if you read 1Thes 4 correctly.

I have not presented, and do not use 1 Corinthians as demonstration of the resurrection of all mankind.
Do you have me confused with someone else?

As pointed out in post #140, the demonstration of the resurrection being of all mankind is in its being in the last day with the sheep and goat judgment of all mankind, which requires the bodies of all mankind to be present in the last day.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The dead rising 1000 years before the others are caught up.

Then something there is not in the last day as the apostles teach (post #140), either the resurrection or the rapture which are 1000 years apart, meaning both can't be in the last day as authoritative apostolic teaching presents.

Check out the Strong's Biblical usage of the word "and".

"But" or "and" makes no difference in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 which gives the issue being addressed, and to what "the dead in Christ" refers.

Remember also, that this is a prophecy and that the people who translated it, did not know what these prophecies actually were. So one word like this can change the entire meaning. In fact, this one word, if it is changed, deletes all the rapture argument.

Irrelevant. . .If I am translating "The frabberstat was stolen," I don't have to know what frabberstat is to know the words mean it was stolen.

This in itself is rather cool. Kind of like God hid it from many people. A bit like a dark saying.

This is really sounding like you are using NT Teaching, Apostolic Teaching, Dark Sayings and Prophetic riddles to justify wrong interpretation.

But is it not the responsibility of the observant to distinguish between "sounds like" and "is"?
Or perhaps it could be sounding like your lack of understanding of what I am saying because you are so wed to your own reference points.

Try to answer questions using scripture to back you up

But is that not precisely what I have done. . .from NT apostolic teaching (see post #140)?
Does "Scripture" to you mean from prophetic riddles whose meaning is not spoken clearly?

instead of using these words to justify. The bible should be able to explain itself with other scripture but so far all I have seen from you is personal interpretation of dark sayings and some of it is in conflict with itself or you are adding to it (like martyrs and the believers are raised at the same time even though it says only the martyrs).

Do you consider the apostolic teaching of the Scriptures presented in post #140 to be dark sayings?
They are the authority for the bodily resurrection of all mankind, the rapture, the second coming and the sheep and goat judgment all occurring in the last day, which does not allow for 1000 years between the resurrection and the rapture.

NT apostolic teaching is not given in riddles whose meanings are not spoken clearly, and where apostolic teaching is not to be equated with such riddles, apostolic teaching being the governor of correct interpretation of prophetic riddles.

 

[eleos1954]

Jesus presented the spirits of Lazarus and the rich man as living after death (Luke 16:19-31).
True or false?

Jesus said the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living (Luke 20:38).
True or false?

God alone is immortal of himself. We cannot be immortal of ourselves, make ourselves immortal, our spirits and resurrection bodies are immortal only because God makes them immortal.

God alone is immortal of himself. We cannot be immortal of ourselves, make ourselves immortal, our spirits and resurrection bodies are immortal only because God makes them immortal.

... and that (immortality) don't happen until the 1st resurrection for most.

Romans 14:8
If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Luke 20:38

In context ... he was speaking to the
Sadducees
who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.

27Then some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to question Him.

37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive (asleep in the grave).”

In God's eyes nobody is really dead (even the lost), because they will indeed be resurrected. This is why He calls the 1st death a sleep ... He has the power of resurrection.

Luke 16:19 isn't teaching about the state of the dead, it is a parable

“But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Because of the Greek influence at that time in history, many people believed that when a person died, they had an immortal (undying) soul that would go on living. This error—based on Greek thought, not the Old Testament—is not the point of the story. The point is, the decisions you make now affects your eternal destiny.

If dead men actually hold converse with one another, then the parable contradicts the plainest declarations of Scripture—"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4); "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Ps. 115:17).

 

[Clare73]

I think I might have to call it quits with this thread again. We seem to have come to an impass. I have enjoyed the conversation and to be honest, I do not mind if I am wrong. I guess we will all find out someday.
God Bless all you guys. (Especially Clair73. You were a legend in this thread)
Please do not post something really interesting on here otherwise I will look double minded.

On the other hand, it matters to me if my doctrine is in disagreement with apostolic teaching, and I'd rather have no opinion than a wrong opinion, so I have no opinion on the meaning of unfulfilled prophetic riddles that I will defend.

It was nice discussing with you.

Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

... and that (immortality) don't happen until the 1st resurrection for most.

Romans 14:8
If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. Luke 20:38

Precisely. . .because our spirit lives when the body dies, therefore, we can belong to the Lord.
"The Lord is the Lord of the living, not the Lord of the dead," for the dead don't exist, and you can't be the Lord of that which doesn't exist.

In context ...

The context doesn't alter the principle of the immortal spirit, it alters only the application of the principle in the context.

he was speaking to the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.
27Then some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to question Him.
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive (asleep in the grave).”
In God's eyes nobody is really dead (even the lost), because they will indeed be resurrected.

No. . .God doesn't play "make believe," he does not regard those who do not exist as being in existence.
He is the God of "the living," not the God of "the will be living some day."

This is why He calls the 1st death a sleep ... He has the power of resurrection.

"Sleep" has been a common figure for physical death for eons, and still is today.
We all know that the body has to be in existence to sleep.
And we all know that the body returns to the dirt from which it was made and no longer exists as a body capable of sleep.
The dead body is not asleep, it is gone, it has returned to the dirt from which it was made.

Luke 16:19 isn't teaching about the state of the dead, it is a parable

And Jesus' parables are always based on real facts, otherwise they could not illustrate anything real.
You won't find Jesus using unicorns to illustrate anything, because they are not real and cannot illustrate anything.
The fact on which that parable was based is the immortality of the human spirit, as he presented in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being alive (Matthew 22:29-32), and as Paul presents of his own spirit after death (Philippians 1:21-23).

“But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”

No, the point of the parable was the unbelief of the Jews, who would not believe even someone raised from the dead.

Because of the Greek influence at that time in history, many people believed that when a person died, they had an immortal (undying) soul that would go on living. This error—based on Greek thought, not the Old Testament—is not the point of the story.
The point is, the decisions you make now affects your eternal destiny.

Not really. That's too one-dimensional. It's about the unbelief of the Jews.

Paul presents his own spirit as living after death, "with Christ." (Philippians 1:21-23)
Jesus presents the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as living now. (Matthew 22:29-32)
And Jesus presents the spirits of Lazarus and the rich man in the parable as immortal. (Luke 16:22-24)

If dead men actually hold converse with one another,

The parable presents the immortal unrighteous as being unable to converse with immortal righteous,
it does not present an absence of converse of the immortal righteous among themselves.
In the parable, the immortality of the human spirit has nothing to do with "conversing with one another,"
it has to do only with conversing with God (in the figure of Abraham).

then the parable contradicts the plainest declarations of Scripture—"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4);
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Ps. 115:17).

Absolutely true of the human body.
And "the plainest declarations" of OT Scripture are to be understood in the light of authoritative NT apostolic teaching, where we also know that in addition to a mortal body, man also has an immortal spirit. (Matthew 22:29-32; Luke 16:19-31; Philippians 1:21-23).

 

[eleos1954]

Precisely. . .because our spirit lives when the body dies, therefore, we can belong to the Lord.
"The Lord is the Lord of the living, not the Lord of the dead," for the dead don't exist, and you can't be the Lord of that which doesn't exist.

The context doesn't alter the principle of the immortal spirit, only the application of the principle in the context.

No. . .God doesn't play "make believe," he does not regard those who do not exist as being in existence.
He is the God of "the living," not of "the will be living some day."

"Sleep" has been a common figure for physical death for eons, and still is today.
We all know that the body has to be in existence to sleep.
And we all know that the body returns to the dirt from which it was made and no longer exists as a body capable of sleep.
The dead body is not asleep, it is gone, it has returned to the dirt from which it was made.

And Jesus' parables are always based on real facts, otherwise they could not illustrate anything real.
You won't find Jesus using unicorns to illustrate anything, because they are not real and cannot illustrate anything.
The fact on which that parable was based is the immortality of the human spirit, as he presented in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being alive (Matthew 22:29-32), and as Paul presents of his own spirit after death (Philippians 1:21-23).

No, the point of the parable was the unbelief of the Jews who would not believe even someone raised from the dead.
Not really. That's too one-dimensional.

Paul presents his own spirit as living after death, "with Christ." (Philippians 1:21-23)

The parable presents the immortal unrighteous as being unable to converse with immortal righteous, it does not present an absence of converse of the immortal righteous among themselves.
In the parable, the immortality of human spirit has nothing to do with "conversing with one another," it has to do only with conversing with God (in the figure of Abraham).

Absolutely true of the human body.
And "the plainest declarations" of OT Scripture are to be understood in the light of authoritative NT apostolic teaching, where we also know that in addition to a mortal body, man also has an immortal spirit. (Matthew 22:29-32; Luke 20:37-38; Philippians 1:21-23).

What is the implication of this view (spiritualism)? That Christ didn't need to save the whole man (body, spirit and soul) because after all man's soul was already immortal and good.

Do you see how this doctrine (the immorality of the soul) attacks the gospel?

If we have something good in us that transcends death and goes directly to heaven, independent of the resurrection, then that part didn't need to be redeemed by Christ's doing and dying. That means that I am partially good. This view is what Paul would term "another gospel".

 

[Clare73]

What is the implication of this view (spiritualism)? That Christ didn't need to save the whole man (body, spirit and soul) because after all man's soul was already immortal and good.

That's news to me.

To save (salvation) is from the wrath (Romans 5:9) of God's condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18) by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18-19), just as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) was imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:3, Genesis 15:6).
The whole man is condemned, and the whole man is saved. God doesn't deal with us in parts.

Do you see how this doctrine (the immorality of the soul) attacks the gospel?

I've never heard of this doctrine; i.e., that man's soul is good, it's certainly not the teaching of the apostles in the NT.
The NT is more concerned with spirit than soul, "spirit" being referred to five times as often as "soul."

If we have something good in us that transcends death and goes directly to heaven, independent of the resurrection, then that part didn't need to be redeemed by Christ's doing and dying. That means that I am partially good. This view is what Paul would term "another gospel".

It's news to me that we can be redeemed from the wrath of God's condemnation in parts, rather than as a whole person.
Apostolic NT teaching certainly doesn't present redemption in parts.
If any part goes to heaven, it is because the whole person has been redeemed by faith on earth, not just one part redeemed by faith.
Where are you getting this?

 

[eleos1954]

That's news to me.

To save (salvation) is from the wrath (Romans 5:9) of God's condemnation of all mankind(Romans 5:18).

I've never heard of this doctrine; i.e., that man's soul is good, it's certainly not the teaching of the apostles in the NT.
The NT is more concerned with the spirit than the soul, the "spirit "being referred to five times more often than the "soul.

It's news to me that we hadvesomething good in us that transcends death.
It's certainly not presented in apostolic NT teaching.
Where are you getting this?

We are talking about the belief of a immortal spirit ....

The whole man is condemned, and the whole man is saved. God doesn't deal with us in parts.

I agree .... body, soul and spirit are indivisible. There is nothing immortal about us. We do not have a "immortal spirit, soul or body".

"It's news to me that we hadvesomething good in us that transcends death."

If one is claiming a immortal spirit of some kind survives before the resurrection then ... that's is exactly what they
are claiming.

 

[Clare73]

We are talking about the belief of a immortal spirit ....

I agree .... body, soul and spirit are indivisible.

Not according to Hebrews 4:12-13.

There is nothing immortal about us. We do not have a "immortal spirit, soul or body".

What part of Jesus' saying that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive do you not understand (Matthew 22:29-32; Luke 20:37-38)?

What part of Jesus' parable based on the immortality of the spirits of Lazarus and the rich man do you not understand (Luke 16:22-24)?

What part of Paul's spirit being present with Christ when he dies do you not understand (Philippians 1:21-23)?

"It's news to me that we have something good in us that transcends death."

If one is claiming a immortal spirit of some kind survives before the resurrection then ... that's is exactly what they are claiming.

No. . .it is claiming that the immortal spirit was redeemed by faith into eternal life while it was in the body on earth, at the redemption of the whole person by faith, not just a part of the person, the redemption of the body being effected when it is raised to a new body in the resurrection.

Denial of the immortal human spirit which the Holy Spirit indwells in the redeemed is not orthodox Christianity (Matthew 22:29-32; Luke 16:22-24; Philippians 1:21-23).

 

[eleos1954]

Not according to Hebrews 4:12-13.

What part of Jesus' saying that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive do you not understand (Matthew 22:29-32; Luke 20:37-38)?

What part of Jesus' parable based on the immortality of the spirits of Lazarus and the rich man do you not understand (Luke 16:22-24)?

What part of Paul's spirit being present with Christ when he dies do you not understand (Philippians 1:21-23)?

No. . .it is claiming that the immortal spirit was redeemed by faith while it was in the body on earth, in the redemption of the whole person, not just a part of him, the redemption of the body being when it is raised to new life in the resurrection.

Denial of the immortal human spirit which the Holy Spirit indwells in the redeemed is not orthodox Christianity.

Many verses in the bible that describe earthly death as a dormant sleep ... MANY

Sure, many organized religions teach many things that are not biblical and we are told that would happen .... wolves among the sheep .... there are indeed some false teachings ... each must study His Word for themselves.

SPIRIT (Judg. 15:19; Eccles. 12:7; Luke 10:21).

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word ruach occurs 377 times and is translated "wind ... .. breath," or "spirit" (Gen. 8: 1), "life principle" (Gen. 6:17; 7:22), "courage" (Josh. 2:11), "vitality" or "strength" (Judg. 15:19), "disposition" (Isa. 54:6), and "moral character" (Ezek. 11:19).

The "spirit" or "breath" of a person is identical with the "spirit" or "breath" of animals (Eccles. 3:19). This "spirit" or "breath" of a person returns to God at the time of death, and the body returns to the dust where it came from (Job 34:14; Eccles. 12:7). It is also translated "Spirit of God" (Isa. 63:10). In the New Testament the Greek word pneuma is similarly translated as "spirit" or "to breathe." It is also translated as ,"mood," "attitude," or "state of feeling" (Rom. 8:15; 1 Cor. 4:21; 2 Tim. 1:7; 1 John 4:6). Like ruach, it is sometimes translated "Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:11, 14; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 2:4; 1 Pet. 1:12; 2 Pet. 1:21).

Neither in the Old Testament nor the New Testament does ruach or pneuma refer to an intelligent entity capable of existence apart from the body.

The Holy Spirit is given as God sees fit to give it .... we are not at human birth, born with the Holy Spirit ... that is why we must be born again. The Holy Spirit is our teacher/helper.

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And even so ... one can refuse or quench the Holy Spirit,

Men cannot have immortality unless God gives it to them. Paul writes, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). In I Corinthians 15:53 he tells the saints, "This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." At the first resurrection God will give "eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality" (Romans 2:7). If we already had immortality, why should we put it on or seek it?

Only God has immortality. He is, Paul writes to Timothy, ". . . the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality" (I Timothy 6:15-16). John says of the Word, "In Him was life" (John 1:4), meaning as Creator of all things (verse 3), He had life inherent. Jesus affirms this in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Men must go through Him to receive eternal life.

I understand there are other beliefs out there .... I encourage all to study for themselves to find the truth ... through His Word and not church tradition.

teaching of church fathers .... or the bible alone?

Bible only. The mingling of church tradition and some teachings of church fathers in some cases is contrary to what is written in the Word of God.

State of the dead is one of them.

All I can say folks ..... study for yourselves, decide for yourselves!

May the Holy Spirit teach you through His Word. Amen.

 

[Clare73]

Many verses in the bible that describe earthly death as a dormant sleep ... MANY

As I said in post #155.
We all know that the body has to be in existence to sleep.
And we all know that the body eventually turns to the dirt from which it was made and no longer even exists as a body capable of sleep.
We all know the dead body is not asleep, it is gone, it has returned to the dirt from which it was made.

Those verses are not stating what you claim they are.
What you claim is not orthodox Christianity.

 

[1Tonne]

No; it doesn't.
There is the Seven Bowls after the Seventh Trumpet and we are told to endure until the end.

Hi Keras

I am not wanting to carry on the rapture stuff but I would like to give you a better answer as to time lines in Revelation.
At the very start of this thread you made the point that the Bowls continue after the Trumpets. I did answer but not very clearly. So I though it was best clear this up.

Are the seals, trumpets, and bowls describing the same set of judgments three times?
The seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments all end their descriptions with the Day of Judgement (6:17; 11:15,18; 16:17,20) which leads me to believe that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are three retellings of the same set of judgments but from a different angles and so therefore they can show extra happenings that will occur leading up to the return of Christ.

End of the Seals
Rev 6:17 (The 6th Seal. The 7th seal ushers in the next stage of the Trumpets)
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

End of the Trumpets
Rev 11:15 & 18 (The 7th Trumpet)
“…..“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”……. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

End of the Bowls
Rev 16:17 & 19 (The seventh bowl)
“……“It is done!”…….. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath”

Revelation cannot be read as a long timeline starting with the Seals, then Trumpets and lastly Bowls because that would mean we would need 4 lots of Gods Day of Judgement. (Seals Judgement, Trumpet Judgement, Bowl Judgement and Gods Day of Judgement)

So if the seals, trumpets and bowls are all retelling the same judgements from a different angle, the final Seventh trumpet will usher in the rapture and Gods Day of Judgement as in:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

1Thes 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Another that makes sense
Matt 24:30-31
“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

I know that most people read Revelation as a continuing time line and that has allowed for the rapture theory. But they have missed that each of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgements end with the final Day of God Judgement.

Some people say that these are not repeating the same judgements from a different angle. But what we can take from it, is that all of them finish with Gods Day of Judgement.
Cheers

 

[keras]

Some people say that these are not repeating the same judgements from a different angle. But what we can take from it, is that all of them finish with Gods Day of Judgement.

I disagree with the idea that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are the same events, described from different angels. Careful reading of those events, shows that idea to be wrong.
One of the Lord's Day of Judgment, will be the Sixth Seal and some time after that, He will carry out the punishments of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns; at the 7th Bowl, the Battle of Armageddon.
Then Jesus will Judge the nations, Matthew 25:31-33
After the Millennium God will judge everyone who has ever lived. Revelation 20:11-15