The real rapture that makes sense

1Tonne said:

But there is 2 appearances. The first with the Martyrs where he comes to reign for 1000 years and then the second in the clouds and we who are left over will go to meet him in the air. The perishable will become imperishable. Those who are left (not martyrs) then go to the GWT and those who repented and believed will go to be with him in Glory.

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Our appearance with him in glory, will be by Jesus "with all the saints", being brought before God the Father...
1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

When Jesus comes with all the saints, before God the Father, concerns ALL of them that have believed the gospel, and not just the dead in Christ,

2Th 1:10 KJV When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The glorification and admiration of "all them that believe" [before God the FATHER, the Lord] is not limited to just the dead in Christ, but will include those who are alive and remain unto the coming of Jesus with all the saints,

1Th 4:14-17 KJV 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This scripture is so misunderstood.
When Paul says that God will bring WITH Jesus those who are "asleep in Jesus/ THE dead in Christ", are they descending first or rising first? It's either one or the other. The fact is, Jesus descends from heaven [only] with his holy angels. He is then joined by the dead in Christ, rising, and then the living are caught UP, to meet Jesus and them in the air, taking "all the saints" to meet the Lord God in the air. Jesus is going to take all the saints who have believed to be admired and glorified before God the Father, and then he will punish all those who have NOT BELIEVED the gospel.

2Th 1:7-8 KJV 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and -------------------------->
that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 2:10-13 KJV 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because---------------------------------->
they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who ------------------->
believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation-------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Be Blessed
The PuP

1Tonne said:

Thes 4:15 is a tricky verse but one that I love.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

A big issue with verse 15 is the translation of second word "and" into English.
This word in Greek is "kai". It is a joining word or what we call in English, a compound word. The Strong's number for it is G2532. It can be translated as "and", "also", "even", "indeed", and "but". So lets use the word "but" instead of "and" to see if it makes even better chronological sense.
Altered:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But, the dead in Christ will rise first."
This makes even more chronological sense now. I am not changing the original Greek text.
G2532 - kai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20) (blueletterbible.org)
Reading it this way means that the dead in Christ rise first (Rev 20 says the martyrs and 1000 years) and then the Lord will descend from heaven with the trumpet of God (The final trumpet).
One word can make a big difference. Such a little word too.



The 5th seal is once again about the martyrs.(Rev 6:9-11). It refers again to these martyrs in Rev 7:9-17. In verse 14 it even mentions that they are the martyrs from the great tribulation. If God was to take his people out in a rapture, why are there martyrs in the tribulation?
I do not know what the 6th seal is but it could easily be a nuclear bomb

1. There occurs a great earthquake where "the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon like blood" (6:12).
2. The stars of heaven fall to the earth and the sky recedes like a scroll being rolled up (6:13–14).
3. Every mountain and island is moved out of place (6:14).
4. The people of earth retreat to caves in the mountains (6:15).
5. The survivors call upon the mountains and the rocks to fall on them, so as to hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb" (6:16)

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Because those who have physically died are not waiting for any resurrection. They have already passed out of death into eternal life. Not even Paul as a living person 1900+ years ago could prevent that phenomenon.

1Tonne said:

Did you read what you just wrote. It still made sense - Thanks
It would be grammatically wrong though it still works. So yes, they could have done that but that would be bad English. Obviously a translator will try to put in the word that works best in the sentence. With Strongs G2532 you could use "and", "also", "even", "indeed" or "but"
In verse 16, regarding the second "and", the 2 words that would make the sentence sound correct are "and" or "but". They had a 50/50 chance of getting it right.

The scholars were translating something of the future where they did not know exactly what was going to happen. So a simple error like this can easily change the meaning of something major.

Unfortunately, by misinterpreting this one word, it helps people who believe in the rapture to believe that their false belief is correct. This one word made the Rapture. Take it out and replace it with "but" and the rapture theory falls to pieces.
So I can understand hard core rapture people not liking this truth.

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How do you expect to go up to heaven without being caught up, ie raptured?

ewq1938 said:

That's false. All the dead are awaiting some kind of resurrection. The saved have a resurrection of life and the unsaved a resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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And Lazarus was the first to come out when he heard the voice of Jesus. The OT came out when they heard Jesus say, "It is finished" on the Cross. Stephen saw Jesus standing, why would Jesus also not be calling Stephen home?

You all claim Jesus arose with a physical body, yet you deny all in Christ that same physical body.

Timtofly said:

Stephen saw Jesus standing, why would Jesus also not be calling Stephen home?

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The next conscious moment for Stephen and for everybody who dies, is to be standing before God in Judgment. Just as Hebrews 9:27 says.

1Tonne said:

Not sure if you are trying to be nice or insult. Sorry

Proverbs 16:6
By the fear of the Lord men depart from Evil

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no ... no insult .... what I was meaning is that saying one thing and then saying another thing that contradicts what you said.

fear (not in being afraid) .... fear (giving reverence to)

1Tonne said:

Thes 4:15 is a tricky verse but one that I love.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

A big issue with verse 15 is the translation of second word "and" into English.
This word in Greek is "kai". It is a joining word or what we call in English, a compound word. The Strong's number for it is G2532. It can be translated as "and", "also", "even", "indeed", and "but". So lets use the word "but" instead of "and" to see if it makes even better chronological sense.
Altered:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But, the dead in Christ will rise first."
This makes even more chronological sense now. I am not changing the original Greek text.
G2532 - kai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20) (blueletterbible.org)

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Reading it this way means that the dead in Christ rise first (Rev 20 says the martyrs and 1000 years) and then the Lord will descend from heaven with the trumpet of God (The final trumpet).
One word can make a big difference. Such a little word too.

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However, in context (4:13-17), that is not what is going on in "tricky" v.15.

In context, (v.13) - the Thessalonians were thinking, as it was commonly thought at that time in the NT, that the rapture would occur in their lifetime, and when some died they became concerned that these would miss the rapture because they were in the grave.
Paul is assuring them there that the living saints when Jesus comes would not be raptured without the deceased saints, that "the dead in Christ would rise first, after that those who are still alive and are left
(not being resurrected because they were living), will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Paul is not teaching a 1000-year gap between a rapture of martyrs and a second rapture of the rest of all Christians. That's wrong personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle, wrong because the interpretation contradicts authoritative NT teaching. Another interpretation is needed, in agreement with NT teaching.
The NT teaches one, and only one, rapture of all those in Christ of all time, at the end of time.

The 5th seal is once again about the martyrs.(Rev 6:9-11). It refers again to these martyrs in Rev 7:9-17. In verse 14 it even mentions that they are the martyrs from the great tribulation. If God was to take his people out in a rapture, why are there martyrs in the tribulation?
I do not know what the 6th seal is but it could easily be a nuclear bomb

1. There occurs a great earthquake where "the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon like blood" (6:12).
2. The stars of heaven fall to the earth and the sky recedes like a scroll being rolled up (6:13–14).
3. Every mountain and island is moved out of place (6:14).
4. The people of earth retreat to caves in the mountains (6:15).
5. The survivors call upon the mountains and the rocks to fall on them, so as to hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb" (6:16)

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1Tonne said:

The letters to the churches were written specifically to the churches. So this is written to the people of Thyatira at that particular time. So it does not apply to us in that sense.

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Let's begin with what God told Miriam: he speaks to the prophets in riddles (dark sayings), not clearly, as he speaks to Moses face to face (Numbers 12:8).
So we have God's own rule from God's own "mouth" regarding prophecy--it is riddle, it is figurative (dark sayings), it is not literal. And being figurative and not literal, means it can be understood in more than one way; i.e., prophetic riddles are subject to more than one interpretation.
So the rule for correct interpretation of prophetic riddles is that the interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching, the NT being God's completion of the OT, and its teaching being the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

And then, in light of the NT, let's remember that any NT spiritual principle applies to all Christians for all times--immoral teaching, divine consequences of sin, etc.

A lot of people say that the letters to the churches are different periods in Church history and that we are now in the Laodicea era. If these verses were in the letter to the church of Laodicea (the end church), then it may have been correct to use those verses. But it was to a different church era.
(In saying this we can learn lessons from the letters to the church. eg Do not lose your first love like the church of Ephesus. So they are very useful verses)

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1Tonne said:

Not sure if we are on the same page or not. Maybe I have worded something wrong. I will redefine what I think.
I believe the first judgement is in Rev 20:4. This is for the Martyrs only as stated.

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1 Thes 4:15-16
"And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
Notice how it says "and remain". This is because everybody else remains on earth. Once the dead in Christ have reigned for 1000 years, then those who remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. This is when the second judgement happens in Rev 20:11

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As explained in post #66, that is an incorrect--because out of context--understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:15. . .which is not about two raptures with 1,000 years between them.

That interpretation of 4:15 is contrary to authoritative NT teaching (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Numbers 12:8) which presents one and only one rapture--in the last day, at the end of time.

The second judgement would be

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That interpretation of 4:15 as a second judgment is likewise contrary to authoritative NT teaching which presents only one judgment--in the last day, at the end of time; i.e., the sheep and goat judgment of all mankind.

for everyone who is left at final trumpet both alive and dead.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non believers as well as believers who are left on the earth. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

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Timtofly said:

The Second Coming is the final rapture for the church. There is no judgment for the church at all.

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All personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Numbers 12:8, see post #94, above) must be in agreement with the authoritative teaching of God's completed revelation of the NT, which NT teaching is the light in which all Scripture is to understood.

Authoritative NT teaching presents only one rapture and one judgment, the sheep and goat judgment of all mankind, in the last day, at the end of time.

The Cross was the only judgment. There will be rewards, but that is not the resurrection in Revelation 20:4.

The church is currently already in Paradise. The church will remain in Paradise after the Second Coming and during the 1000 year reign. The church in Paradise will not come down to earth, until the New Jerusalem comes after the NHNE.

Those beheaded will come from all nations, and will be resurrected in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and repopulate the earth. That is what the 1000 year reign is for. Satan will be bound and no sin, or sin natures. After 1000 years and 30 to 40 generations, there will be billions on the earth. Some of the later generations will listen to Satan and be decieved, not the original resurrected saints. At least that makes sense, because none of Adam's flesh and blood are alive at the start of the 1000 year reign.

Many reject that perfect people can rebel after living under the rule of Christ, yet Adam and Eve were in the image of God, and God visited them daily, and they still rebelled. All humans serve God freely and are not forced to obey or disobey. So siding with Satan at the end of the 1000 years is just as plausible as Adam and Eve listening to Satan in a perfect environment.

The GWT is the end of current reality. The NHNE will be a totally different experience.

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1Tonne said:

G4035 - perileipomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)


1. To leave over
1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and ARE LEFT OVER shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

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Those who are "left over" are the living saints at the resurrection, who did not rise in the resurrection because they were not dead, and who will not be raptured without and until the deceased saints are raised to rapture with them.

See post #93 for explanation.

It looks like this discussion will just go round in circles unfortunately.
I have enjoyed it but if I continue, I may get dizzy.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed. It made it interesting.
God bless you guys.

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klutedavid said:

Are believers in Jesus judged?
John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Matthew 7:1
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

Matthew 7:2
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

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Judge means to pronounce judgment, as well as to evaluate.

The saints will be not be judged (pronounced condemned), but they will be judged (evaluated). . .both sheep and goats are evaluated, only the goats are condemned.

1Tonne said:

It says specifically the martyrs in Rev20:4. Please explain verse 5 where it say the rest of the dead that are not martyrs did not come back to life.
We cannot change the bible in the hope that the first resurrection includes all believers.

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But we can realize that prophecy is given in riddles, and not cleary, and is not to be taken literally, the judge of all interpretation of prophetic riddles being it must be in agreement with authoritative NT teaching, which is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

By saying it is a prophetic riddle is a cop out. It is a way to excuse misinterpretation without giving a proper explanation.

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Or maybe it's taking God at his word (dark sayings) in Numbers 12:8, as explained in post #94, above.

chad kincham said:

I see scripture as showing a mid trib rapture, and the two rapture passages from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 state all the dead in Christ and all alive Christians are caught up, thus it may be that all of those spend the millennium in heaven, and only the tribulation martyrs get to reign and rule with Jesus for a thousand years.
I certainly don’t claim to have it all figured out yet, by any means, but am 95% convinced of a mid trib, pre mark, pre wrath, and premillennial rapture.

Maranatha

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Authoritative NT teaching, the light in which all Scripture is to be understood, presents only one resurrection, one rapture , one second coming and one final judgment of all mankind (sheep and goats), all in the last day, at the end of time.

Any interpretation of prophecy not in agreement with NT teaching is in error.

1Tonne said:

Hebrews was written to the Gentiles. Not the Israelites

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Hebrews was written to Hebrew new professing Christians who were considering returning to Judaism.

1Tonne said:

It does sound reasonable but there are flaws in it for the fact that the only dead that are raised at the first resurrection are the martyrs. The rapture theory believes that all dead believers are raised. But Revelation 20:5 states that no other people will be raised. Only the martyrs.

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This interpretation of the prophetic riddle of Revelation 20:5 is not in agreement with authoritative NT teaching , the light in which all Scripture is to be understood, of only one resurrection of all mankind occuring in the last day at the end of time.

Thessalonians does not say "all". It only says "those who have fallen asleep".

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As explained in post #93, the problem being addressed in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is concern that the deceased saints ("those who have fallen asleep") will miss the rapture.

So those that have died. We can then see from Revelation that it means a specific group of dead people. Those that love Jesus so much that they gave their lives for him (no great love than this).
In 1Cor 15:51-52 you will notice that some bibles have put a heading saying "Our Final Victory". Final meaning at the end. If it happens some time around the tribulation, there is still 1000 years left of the earth. So it does not seem very final. Verse 52 of Corinthians says that these dead people are raised at the final trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the final trumpet and it ushers in the Great White throne judgement.

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Authoritative NT teaching, the light in which all Scripture is to be understood, presents only one resurrection of all mankind, sheep and goats, in the last day at the end of time.

1Tonne said:

Another thing to note:
1Cor 15:52
"and the dead will be raised incorruptible"
When reading 1Cor 15:52, people who believe in the rapture
see the word incorruptible and believe that this means that they will not have sin in them or that they will not longer be able to sin.

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The physical resurrection body is spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious), not natural (sinful, corruptible, weak).
The spiritual physical body of the resurrection (as opposed to the natural body) is our body for dwelling with God.

But, the word incorruptible in the verse means not liable to decay or imperishable. So they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from being in the grave to our imperishable selves to face judgement and then eternity.
G862 - aphthartos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)

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