The real rapture that makes sense

[Timtofly]

Sorry. I said "judge" because that is what it says in Hebrews 10:30 (The LORD will judge His people). What I do mean is that every person will have to give an account at the Great White Throne Judgement but when it comes down to the final Judgement, Christ will intervene because of the sacrifice he did for those that believe in him.
This makes good sense too. If we are just automatically saved, we will not understand how unworthy we are and we will not see how great the sacrifice was that Jesus did. By giving an account we see how unworthy we are and then we will fully understand the sacrifice that Jesus did. We will then know how great the love is that Jesus has for us. We will know the fullness of his love.

Every dead person. The church is not dead. Those in Christ are not dead. We have passed from death unto life. Only the dead stand before the GWT. Being changed is our judgment.

 

[ewq1938]

If one is still alive, they are surviving earth, sin, death, the flesh. There are a lot of things to survive.

This was a specific reference to surviving the Great Tribulation. Not many shall which is why it is so noteworthy to be of those who are "alive and remain" when Christ returns.

 

[chad kincham]

I have looked up on the CF the word rapture expecting to find a thread that is similar to what I believe the rapture is but I have not been able to find a similar rapture theory. To me, this theory made way more sense than any of the other theories. (I am sure this is already out there but I might as well post it up)

In 1Thes 4:17 it says “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

The English phrase “caught up” (NASB) translates the Greek word harpazõ, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” This is the Greek word from which the English word “harpoon” is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. So the word Rapture does appear in the Bible but the question then becomes, who are “we who are alive” and when does this happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

After reading 1Thes 4:13-18, we can conclude that the people who are alive will not go to be with Jesus until “the dead in Christ” have been raised first. So, the question is, who are these dead believers in Christ? In Revelation 20:4-6 it speaks about this first resurrection of the dead. This verse gives us insight into who these believers are and what they do. These believers who are raised first are not all the believers, but some who were willing to give their lives in the name of Christ during the time of the tribulation. They come back with him and reign for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

So what 1Thes 4:13-18 is saying is that the martyrs are raised first and they reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then those that remain (Christian and non-Christian) will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air after the 1000 years (for the day of Judgment). So, the rapture that everyone talks about could actually be at the very end of the 1000 years when God gathers everyone, Christian and Non-Christian for judgement. Everyone will be “caught up together”, or “Snatched up” all at the same time.

In Matthew 25:31-33 it says that we are all gathered together at the same time. That is non-Christians and Christians at the same time. The sheep and Goats at the same time. Then Jesus will separate the non-Christians from the Christians at the Judgement seat.

Matt 25:31-33
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. “And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left."
Matthew continues to explain the judgement further in the remainder of Matthew 25

In Rev 20:12 and Romans 14:10 it says that everyone will be judged; So, those that believe in Christ will be judged too (Hebrews 10:30).

Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books"
Heb 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, ”says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.

After God gathers everyone, they are judged. This makes sense as there are many people who believe in Christ but they do not repent. So to find the true believers of Christ each person will give an account of how they lived. Did they turn from their sin, and did they really have faith in the sacrifice that Jesus did? If so, God will grant them mercy.

Another verse that people who believe in the rapture use is 1Corinthians 15:51-52.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non Christians as well as Christians. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

So yes, there is a rapture but not as a lot of Christians think. It is the final trumpet call in Revelation.

I hope this makes sense. If you do think that this is not correct, please let me know how as I would like to learn. Cheers and God Bless.

I see scripture as showing a mid trib rapture, and the two rapture passages from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 state all the dead in Christ and all alive Christians are caught up, thus it may be that all of those spend the millennium in heaven, and only the tribulation martyrs get to reign and rule with Jesus for a thousand years.

I certainly don’t claim to have it all figured out yet, by any means, but am 95% convinced of a mid trib, pre mark, pre wrath, and premillennial rapture.

Maranatha

 

[1Tonne]

His people Israel.

Hebrews was written to the Gentiles. Not the Israelites

 

[1Tonne]

I see scripture as showing a mid trib rapture, and the two rapture passages from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 state all the dead in Christ and all alive Christians are caught up, thus it may be that all of those spend the millennium in heaven, and only the tribulation martyrs get to reign and rule with Jesus for a thousand years.

I certainly don’t claim to have it all figured out yet, by any means, but am 95% convinced of a mid trib, pre mark, pre wrath, and premillennial rapture.

Maranatha

It does sound reasonable but there are flaws in it for the fact that the only dead that are raised at the first resurrection are the martyrs. The rapture theory believes that all dead believers are raised. But Revelation 20:5 states that no other people will be raised. Only the martyrs. Thessalonians does not say "all". It only says "those who have fallen asleep". So those that have died. We can then see from Revelation that it means a specific group of dead people. Those that love Jesus so much that they gave their lives for him (no great love than this).
In 1Cor 15:51-52 you will notice that some bibles have put a heading saying "Our Final Victory". Final meaning at the end. If it happens some time around the tribulation, there is still 1000 years left of the earth. So it does not seem very final. Verse 52 of Corinthians says that these dead people are raised at the final trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the final trumpet and it ushers in the Great White throne judgement.

 

[1Tonne]

Every dead person. The church is not dead. Those in Christ are not dead. We have passed from death unto life. Only the dead stand before the GWT. Being changed is our judgment.

2Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.

Paid back for the good they do??? That sounds like a believer to me.

Romans 14:10-11
"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Standing before the Judgment seat implies everyone will give an account.

Acts 10:42-43
“And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
“To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Acts 10:42-43 implies as well that everyone will have to give an account but those who believe will have remission of sins. So all give account but only those who believe will not be found guilty through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus. If this verse was about non-believers it would not say "whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins" as non-believers have no hope. This statement implies that out of the living and the dead, there are those that believe and they will not be condemned.
Romans 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"
Everyone has to give an account but those who believe will not be condemned.

 

[1Tonne]

Another thing to note:
1Cor 15:52
"and the dead will be raised incorruptible"
When reading 1Cor 15:52, people who believe in the rapture see the word incorruptible and believe that this means that they will not have sin in them or that they will not longer be able to sin.
But, the word incorruptible in the verse means not liable to decay or imperishable. So they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from being in the grave to our imperishable selves to face judgement and then eternity.
G862 - aphthartos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)

 

[eleos1954]

It says specifically the martyrs in Rev20:4. Please explain verse 5 where it say the rest of the dead that are not martyrs did not come back to life.
We cannot change the bible in the hope that the first resurrection includes all believers.
By saying it is a prophetic riddle is a cop out. It is a way to excuse misinterpretation without giving a proper explanation.

The rest of the dead are the lost that remains in the grave, until the 1,000 years of the saved in heaven is completed.

dead is dead (not really dead) .... in the grave where everyone is in a dormant sleep (as described) many places in His Word (even Jesus) .... one day everyone will be resurrected. God looks at the dead as in a sleep because all will be resurrected ... the 1st of the saved .... the 2nd of the lost.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29 NKJV

The saved only die once. When they are resurrected in the first resurrection they will live eternally. They will not die a second time. But when the unsaved are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, Satan will tempt them to try and destroy the New Jerusalem, and that is when the fire will come down from God and destroy them.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. Revelation 20:7-10 NKJV

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15 NKJV

 

[Timtofly]

This was a specific reference to surviving the Great Tribulation. Not many shall which is why it is so noteworthy to be of those who are "alive and remain" when Christ returns.

Paul also made it clear that living or dying was both acceptable as the result is still being with Christ. Paul was not making a distinction to try to survive until the Second Coming.

One is trying to mix the points between what Paul was teaching and what Jesus was declaring. That is why "left over" and "survive" will never make sense. Paul was simply stating that some will have not died when Christ returns. The church would not die out, and only sinners on the earth for years of desolation.

While a person is alive they endure and overcome. Just because this body gives out, even naturally, does not change the fact we each have to endure and overcome that which sin, the flesh, and Satan throw at us on a daily basis.

 

[Timtofly]

Hebrews was written to the Gentiles. Not the Israelites

Hebrew:

"a member of an ancient people living in what is now Israel and Palestine and, according to biblical tradition, descended from the patriarch Jacob, grandson of Abraham."

Jacob was renamed Israel. Not sure how you arrive at Gentiles?

 

[1Tonne]

Well, you should consider.....

God saved Noah from His wrath.
God saved Lot from His wrath.

There isn't a single example in the Bible, where God drug His believers through His wrath. Judgement... YES... but not His Wrath.

The tribulation is Satins wrath against God and his people. Not God punishing the world.

Another thing is, if God was to save his people from the Tribulation, why are there so many believers who become martyrs. If there was a rapture, there would be no one to tell the Gospel and so there would be no one who is taught the truth and then there would be no martyrs. This aside, it is satins wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

It does sound reasonable but there are flaws in it for the fact that the only dead that are raised at the first resurrection are the martyrs. The rapture theory believes that all dead believers are raised. But Revelation 20:5 states that no other people will be raised. Only the martyrs. Thessalonians does not say "all". It only says "those who have fallen asleep". So those that have died. We can then see from Revelation that it means a specific group of dead people. Those that love Jesus so much that they gave their lives for him (no great love than this).
In 1Cor 15:51-52 you will notice that some bibles have put a heading saying "Our Final Victory". Final meaning at the end. If it happens some time around the tribulation, there is still 1000 years left of the earth. So it does not seem very final. Verse 52 of Corinthians says that these dead people are raised at the final trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the final trumpet and it ushers in the Great White throne judgement.

Revelation 20:4 is not even the same resurrection Paul is describing at the Second Coming. The timing is not even right. Paul states certain criteria in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. Revelation 20:4 does not fit any of Paul's criteria. Neither does Revelation 20:11 fit the Second Coming.

You are correct in that Revelation 20:4 is only about those beheaded. It is not about the church being resurrected at all. The church as Paul describes happened years prior when the 5th and 6th Seal were opened up. That is the Second Coming, and the church taken to Paradise. John's description in Revelation 6 is from God's perspective. Paul's description was from the perspective of those living on the earth.

 

[1Tonne]

The rest of the dead are the lost that remains in the grave, until the 1,000 years of the saved in heaven is completed.

Once again, people are presuming that are raised are all believers. It only says the martyrs.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29 NKJV

The saved only die once. When they are resurrected in the first resurrection they will live eternally. They will not die a second time. But when the unsaved are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, Satan will tempt them to try and destroy the New Jerusalem, and that is when the fire will come down from God and destroy them.

What you are missing is an understanding of the second death. First we have a physical death on earth. The second death is being thrown into the lake of fire. So I agree. Christians to not have the second death. Giving an account of your life is not the second death. It is the actual lake of fire.

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15 NKJV

It is a good thing us believers are found in the book of life then.
I am glad that at the Great White Throne, it says that the book of life was opened. (I can't see in the bible anywhere else it was opened)

 

[Timtofly]

The 7th trumpet is the final trumpet and it ushers in the Great White throne judgement.

The 7th Trumpet sounds 1000 years before the GWT. It does not usher in the GWT at all. The 6th Seal shows us the GWT. The face of the one sitting on the throne. The GWT has always been on earth and in heaven. We just cannot see it from the time Adam was punished with sin and death.

At the end of the 1000 years, earth and heaven pass away. No longer in existence, only the GWT is left and only for the dead.

Those alive will witness a new heaven and earth immediately, not the GWT.

John saw both views so he could write them down. However, when it happens, the dead will only see the GWT; not the NHNE. The living will only see the NHNE; not the GWT judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

2Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.

Paid back for the good they do??? That sounds like a believer to me.

Romans 14:10-11
"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Standing before the Judgment seat implies everyone will give an account.

Acts 10:42-43
“And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
“To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Acts 10:42-43 implies as well that everyone will have to give an account but those who believe will have remission of sins. So all give account but only those who believe will not be found guilty through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus. If this verse was about non-believers it would not say "whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins" as non-believers have no hope. This statement implies that out of the living and the dead, there are those that believe and they will not be condemned.
Romans 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"
Everyone has to give an account but those who believe will not be condemned.

The GWT is not the judgment seat of Christ. What specific judgment are you trying to convince people, is going to happen?

Do you think those at the GWT, can ask God to keep them in the Lamb's book of life, and remove them from His judgment?

Are those at the judgment seat of Christ, going to ask if they can be removed from the Lamb's book of life and cast into the Lake of Fire?

 

[Timtofly]

Another thing to note:
1Cor 15:52
"and the dead will be raised incorruptible"
When reading 1Cor 15:52, people who believe in the rapture see the word incorruptible and believe that this means that they will not have sin in them or that they will not longer be able to sin.
But, the word incorruptible in the verse means not liable to decay or imperishable. So they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from being in the grave to our imperishable selves to face judgement and then eternity.
G862 - aphthartos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Except all those in Paradise are already raised incorruptible. They have bodies that cannot decay or die. Is that going to change for them at some future time or permanent?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

What guess work is necessary to state a gap in time between no longer having a dust body on earth and a permanent one in Paradise?

Is not the body considered a temple or tabernacle. Does that change at physical death?

 

[1Tonne]

One is trying to mix the points between what Paul was teaching and what Jesus was declaring. That is why "left over" and "survive" will never make sense. Paul was simply stating that some will have not died when Christ returns. The church would not die out, and only sinners on the earth for years of desolation.

I partly agree. "Some will not have died" This is correct. Those that "remain".

 

[eleos1954]

Once again, people are presuming that are raised are all believers. It only says the martyrs.



What you are missing is an understanding of the second death. First we have a physical death on earth. The second death is being thrown into the lake of fire. So I agree. Christians to not have the second death. Giving an account of your life is not the second death. It is the actual lake of fire.



It is a good thing us believers are found in the book of life then.
I am glad that at the Great White Throne, it says that the book of life was opened. (I can't see in the bible anywhere else it was opened)

no ... there is no such thing as an eternal burning place (if that is what you are promoting) .... that is nonsensical .... not taught in His Word ... the god of torture is right out of the playbook of satan distorting the Word of God and being propagated through churches no less.

It does not say only martyrs .... that is you reading what you think into scripture.

It is a good thing us believers are found in the book of life then.

well ... yes it is ...

Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They (all of them) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Not just martyrs my friend.

 

[Timtofly]

The tribulation is Satins wrath against God and his people. Not God punishing the world.

Another thing is, if God was to save his people from the Tribulation, why are there so many believers who become martyrs. If there was a rapture, there would be no one to tell the Gospel and so there would be no one who is taught the truth and then there would be no martyrs. This aside, it is satins wrath.

People can still reject Satan, by being beheaded, without knowing the truth. Do you think those who reject Satan and get their heads chopped off, ever even bothered to read Revelation 20:4 and do it knowing they will be resurrected?

Those people missed the Second Coming and rapture, because they never accepted the truth. Not necessarily because they knew and rejected the truth. This is not a left behind, second chance scenario. These people literally reject Satan and all he has to offer. I doubt they are doing it, knowing the outcome. Those who knowingly rejected God's Grace, are going to embrace Satan, not turn their back on Satan.

Why do people miss the whole point about Revelation as the final harvest of Adam's flesh and blood?

In the Seals, 2 billion people gone. In the Trumpets, 2 billion people gone. It can be assumed in the Thunders, 2 billion people gone. Not the same 2 billion each time. This is not a recap scenario. This is the systematic removal of humanity known as the final harvest. After 6 billion people harvested, there seems to still be some/many/millions/a billion; who knows are going to be harvested during a 42 month period where Satan is in charge. Those harvested are going out by beheadings to avoid the mark. Since only those resurrected are beheaded and do not recieve the mark, those who get the mark and die, will not be resurrected but remain dead. Those who die naturally from starving to death, are not said to be resurrected, mark or no mark. This resurrection is pretty specific.

The other point, people are missing is that after the Second Coming, there is the witness of the Lamb and the 144k during the GT. There is the witness of the 2 witnesses during Satan's 42 months. Those beheaded are not in the dark after the Second Coming. They were in the dark before the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

I partly agree. "Some will not have died" This is correct. Those that "remain".

Until you physically die, you are part of those who remain. Once you have passed on into Paradise, you have already been changed and resurrected. You are in Christ's physical resurrection, as part of the second birth.