The real rapture that makes sense

ewq1938

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It occurs after the resurrection and the second coming. So at the final judgement.

That's not the final judgment. It's the first judgment. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is the resurrection at the final judgment.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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1Tonne

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Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The letters to the churches were written specifically to the churches. So this is written to the people of Thyatira at that particular time. So it does not apply to us in that sense.
A lot of people say that the letters to the churches are different periods in Church history and that we are now in the Laodicea era. If these verses were in the letter to the church of Laodicea (the end church), then it may have been correct to use those verses. But it was to a different church era.
(In saying this we can learn lessons from the letters to the church. eg Do not lose your first love like the church of Ephesus. So they are very useful verses)
 
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ewq1938

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The letters to the churches were written specifically to the churches.

But they also are prophetic and speak of people overcoming and overcoming is an end times concept and so is the ruling the nations with a rod of iron which only happens after the second coming:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The verb "rule" here is written in the future tense so this ruling begins after the events of Armageddon. It directly matches what is found in Revelation 2.

All overcomers will rule the nations with Christ, not only the smaller group mentioned in Revelation 20.
 
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1Tonne

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That's not the final judgment. It's the first judgment. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is the resurrection at the final judgment.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Not sure if we are on the same page or not. Maybe I have worded something wrong. I will redefine what I think.

I believe the first judgement is in Rev 20:4. This is for the Martyrs only as stated.
1 Thes 4:15-16
"And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
Notice how it says "and remain". This is because everybody else remains on earth. Once the dead in Christ have reigned for 1000 years, then those who remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. This is when the second judgement happens in Rev 20:11
The second judgement would be for everyone who is left at final trumpet both alive and dead.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non believers as well as believers who are left on the earth. This happens after the 1000 year reign.
 
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ewq1938

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I believe the first judgement is in Rev 20:4. This is for the Martyrs only as stated.

It's not only them being judged and resurrected. It only focuses on them.


1 Thes 4:15-16
"And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

That proves all the dead in Christ are resurrected at the same time not just the beheaded saints.



Notice how it says "and remain". This is because everybody else remains on earth.

That's not what it means:

G4035
περιλείπω
perileipō
per-ee-li'-po
From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and SURVIVED shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He is talking about those would survive the Great Tribulation.


Once the dead in Christ have reigned for 1000 years, then those who remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the lord in the air.

Paul placed the "caught up" at the second coming not after the thousand years.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
 
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Timtofly

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Not sure if we are on the same page or not. Maybe I have worded something wrong. I will redefine what I think.

I believe the first judgement is in Rev 20:4. This is for the Martyrs only as stated.
1 Thes 4:15-16
"And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
Notice how it says "and remain". This is because everybody else remains on earth. Once the dead in Christ have reigned for 1000 years, then those who remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. This is when the second judgement happens in Rev 20:11
The second judgement would be for everyone who is left at final trumpet both alive and dead.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non believers as well as believers who are left on the earth. This happens after the 1000 year reign.
The Second Coming is the final rapture for the church. There is no judgment for the church at all. The Cross was the only judgment. There will be rewards, but that is not the resurrection in Revelation 20:4.

The church is currently already in Paradise. The church will remain in Paradise after the Second Coming and during the 1000 year reign. The church in Paradise will not come down to earth, until the New Jerusalem comes after the NHNE.

Those beheaded will come from all nations, and will be resurrected in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and repopulate the earth. That is what the 1000 year reign is for. Satan will be bound and no sin, or sin natures. After 1000 years and 30 to 40 generations, there will be billions on the earth. Some of the later generations will listen to Satan and be decieved, not the original resurrected saints. At least that makes sense, because none of Adam's flesh and blood are alive at the start of the 1000 year reign.

Many reject that perfect people can rebel after living under the rule of Christ, yet Adam and Eve were in the image of God, and God visited them daily, and they still rebelled. All humans serve God freely and are not forced to obey or disobey. So siding with Satan at the end of the 1000 years is just as plausible as Adam and Eve listening to Satan in a perfect environment.

The GWT is the end of current reality. The NHNE will be a totally different experience.
 
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1Tonne

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That's not what it means:

G4035
περιλείπω
perileipō
per-ee-li'-po
From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and SURVIVED shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He is talking about those would survive the Great Tribulation.

G4035 - perileipomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)


1. To leave over
1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and ARE LEFT OVER shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

It looks like this discussion will just go round in circles unfortunately.
I have enjoyed it but if I continue, I may get dizzy.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed. It made it interesting.
God bless you guys.
 
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1Tonne

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There is no judgment for the church at all. The Cross was the only judgment.

Maybe Hebrews is wrong then
Heb 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, ”says the Lord. And again, The LORD will judge His people.
 
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ewq1938

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1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and ARE LEFT OVER shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Which one do you think is the better translation?

1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and SURVIVED shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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klutedavid

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I have looked up on the CF the word rapture expecting to find a thread that is similar to what I believe the rapture is but I have not been able to find a similar rapture theory. To me, this theory made way more sense than any of the other theories. (I am sure this is already out there but I might as well post it up)

In 1Thes 4:17 it says “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

The English phrase “caught up” (NASB) translates the Greek word harpazõ, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” This is the Greek word from which the English word “harpoon” is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. So the word Rapture does appear in the Bible but the question then becomes, who are “we who are alive” and when does this happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

After reading 1Thes 4:13-18, we can conclude that the people who are alive will not go to be with Jesus until “the dead in Christ” have been raised first. So, the question is, who are these dead believers in Christ? In Revelation 20:4-6 it speaks about this first resurrection of the dead. This verse gives us insight into who these believers are and what they do. These believers who are raised first are not all the believers, but some who were willing to give their lives in the name of Christ during the time of the tribulation. They come back with him and reign for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

So what 1Thes 4:13-18 is saying is that the martyrs are raised first and they reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then those that remain (Christian and non-Christian) will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air after the 1000 years (for the day of Judgment). So, the rapture that everyone talks about could actually be at the very end of the 1000 years when God gathers everyone, Christian and Non-Christian for judgement. Everyone will be “caught up together”, or “Snatched up” all at the same time.

In Matthew 25:31-33 it says that we are all gathered together at the same time. That is non-Christians and Christians at the same time. The sheep and Goats at the same time. Then Jesus will separate the non-Christians from the Christians at the Judgement seat.

Matt 25:31-33
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. “And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left."
Matthew continues to explain the judgement further in the remainder of Matthew 25

In Rev 20:12 and Romans 14:10 it says that everyone will be judged; So, those that believe in Christ will be judged too (Hebrews 10:30).

Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books"
Heb 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, ”says the Lord. And again, The LORD will judge His people.

After God gathers everyone, they are judged. This makes sense as there are many people who believe in Christ but they do not repent. So to find the true believers of Christ each person will give an account of how they lived. Did they turn from their sin, and did they really have faith in the sacrifice that Jesus did? If so, God will grant them mercy.

Another verse that people who believe in the rapture use is 1Corinthians 15:51-52.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non Christians as well as Christians. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

So yes, there is a rapture but not as a lot of Christians think. It is the final trumpet call in Revelation.

I hope this makes sense. If you do think that this is not correct, please let me know how as I would like to learn. Cheers and God Bless.
Are believers in Jesus judged?

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Matthew 7:1
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

Matthew 7:2
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
 
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ewq1938

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Psa 96:9 O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
Psa 96:10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
Psa 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
Psa 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
Psa 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Psa 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.




Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.



Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.



Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.



Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
 
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1Tonne

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Are believers in Jesus judged?

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Matthew 7:1
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

Matthew 7:2
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Sorry. I said "judge" because that is what it says in Hebrews 10:30 (The LORD will judge His people). What I do mean is that every person will have to give an account at the Great White Throne Judgement but when it comes down to the final Judgement, Christ will intervene because of the sacrifice he did for those that believe in him.
This makes good sense too. If we are just automatically saved, we will not understand how unworthy we are and we will not see how great the sacrifice was that Jesus did. By giving an account we see how unworthy we are and then we will fully understand the sacrifice that Jesus did. We will then know how great the love is that Jesus has for us. We will know the fullness of his love.
 
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klutedavid

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Psa 96:9 O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
Psa 96:10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
Psa 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
Psa 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
Psa 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Psa 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.




Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.



Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.



Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.



Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
We are judged and disciplined in this life only.

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
 
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1Tonne

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We are judged and disciplined in this life only.

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

The word "Condemned" is the actual judgement in this verse. The person is found guilty.
"Judged" is a verb. So a doing word or action. So in this verse, when it uses the word "judged", it is in the process of being judged. So when one is giving an account of their life. You could read the verse like this

"But when we give an account of our life, we will be disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be found guilty along with the world."

This can easily be interpreted correctly as at the final judgement. Gods wrath is a fearful thing to face and whoever faces it, once they have seen it, will not want to see it again. And so this disciplines the believer.
 
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eleos1954

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Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God"
This says that they are there. Do you have a scripture to show that they are not there for judgment?


It specifically says that these saints are the martyrs who were beheaded. You cannot change scripture to fit a theory when it simply does not say "all of the saints"




The reward being the martyrs who will reign with him.

Paul is VERY clear here on what happens when Jesus returns.

1 Thessalonans 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those (all those) who have fallen asleep in Him. (not just the martyrs)

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep (including the martyrs). 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ (all the saved) will be the first to rise (including the martyrs).

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
 
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Clare73

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I agree with the new testament

It occurs after the resurrection and the second coming. So at the final judgement.
The rapture occurs before the final judgment, which is the last in a series of concurring events.
If there is assumption added to the NT teaching, then it can be incorrect. It says the martyrs and only the martyrs come back in the first resurrection but the rapture teachers say that it is all believers.
That's a prophetic riddle in a book of prohecy, Revelation, not NT teaching.
Prophetic riddles can have more than one interpretation, and I don't interpret that the way you do.
Only at their fulfillment will we know what they truly mean.
Ignorance could be claimed on both sides of the discussion. I may be ignorant as I cannot understand your view point and you may be ignorant because you do not understand my point of view.
Not knowing the authority for NT teaching, nor why NT teaching is 100% correct, is not just about a "point of view," it's about not understanding the meaning of language and words.
 
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1Tonne

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Paul is VERY clear here on what happens when Jesus returns.

1 Thessalonans 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those (all those) who have fallen asleep in Him. (not just the martyrs)

It says specifically the martyrs in Rev20:4. Please explain verse 5 where it say the rest of the dead that are not martyrs did not come back to life.
We cannot change the bible in the hope that the first resurrection includes all believers.
By saying it is a prophetic riddle is a cop out. It is a way to excuse misinterpretation without giving a proper explanation.
 
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Timtofly

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Which one do you think is the better translation?

1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and SURVIVED shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
If one is still alive, they are surviving earth, sin, death, the flesh. There are a lot of things to survive.
 
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