The real rapture that makes sense

[Timtofly]

no ... there is no such thing as an eternal burning place (if that is what you are promoting) .... that is nonsensical .... not taught in His Word ... the god of torture is right out of the playbook of satan distorting the Word of God and being propagated through churches no less.

It does not say only martyrs .... that is you reading what you think into scripture.



well ... yes it is ...

Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They (all of them) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Not just martyrs my friend.

Those would be the sheep and wheat, from the harvest of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares during the Trumpets and Thunders. These are souls harvested by the angels just prior to Satan's 42 months. They were already taken from their physical bodies, so we're not among those beheaded.

 

[eleos1954]

Once again, people are presuming that are raised are all believers. It only says the martyrs.



What you are missing is an understanding of the second death. First we have a physical death on earth. The second death is being thrown into the lake of fire. So I agree. Christians to not have the second death. Giving an account of your life is not the second death. It is the actual lake of fire.



It is a good thing us believers are found in the book of life then.

I am glad that at the Great White Throne, it says that the book of life was opened. (I can't see in the bible anywhere else it was opened)

Judgement (of the saved) has already taken place until just before Jesus returns , He returns in full glory and with all the heavenly angels.

Judgement of the wicked does not take place until the 2nd resurrection. Their names were missing from the book of life .... that's WHY they are in the 2nd resurrection.

1 Corinthians 6:3

Berean Study Bible
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

 

[eleos1954]

Those would be the sheep and wheat, from the harvest of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares during the Trumpets and Thunders. These are souls harvested by the angels just prior to Satan's 42 months. They were already taken from their physical bodies, so we're not among those beheaded.

well ... evidentially you believe there is something immortal about us .... His Word says only God is immortal ... there is nothing immortal about us until Jesus returns and THEN we are given new bodies we receive the gift of immortality THEN.

God’s people have suffered injustice and death for their faithfulness to the gospel. They cry out to God, asking Him to step in and to vindicate them. T

hese texts concern the injustice done here on earth; they are not saying anything about the state of the dead. After all, these people do not appear to be enjoying the bliss of heaven.

 

[1Tonne]

Revelation 20:4 is not even the same resurrection Paul is describing at the Second Coming. The timing is not even right. Paul states certain criteria in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. Revelation 20:4 does not fit any of Paul's criteria. Neither does Revelation 20:11 fit the Second Coming.

Thes 4:15 is a tricky verse but one that I love.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

A big issue with verse 15 is the translation of second word "and" into English.
This word in Greek is "kai". It is a joining word or what we call in English, a compound word. The Strong's number for it is G2532. It can be translated as "and", "also", "even", "indeed", and "but". So lets use the word "but" instead of "and" to see if it makes even better chronological sense.
Altered:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But, the dead in Christ will rise first."
This makes even more chronological sense now. I am not changing the original Greek text.
G2532 - kai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20) (blueletterbible.org)
Reading it this way means that the dead in Christ rise first (Rev 20 says the martyrs and 1000 years) and then the Lord will descend from heaven with the trumpet of God (The final trumpet).
One word can make a big difference. Such a little word too.

You are correct in that Revelation 20:4 is only about those beheaded. It is not about the church being resurrected at all. The church as Paul describes happened years prior when the 5th and 6th Seal were opened up. That is the Second Coming, and the church taken to Paradise. John's description in Revelation 6 is from God's perspective. Paul's description was from the perspective of those living on the earth.

The 5th seal is once again about the martyrs.(Rev 6:9-11). It refers again to these martyrs in Rev 7:9-17. In verse 14 it even mentions that they are the martyrs from the great tribulation. If God was to take his people out in a rapture, why are there martyrs in the tribulation?
I do not know what the 6th seal is but it could easily be a nuclear bomb

1. There occurs a great earthquake where "the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon like blood" (6:12).
2. The stars of heaven fall to the earth and the sky recedes like a scroll being rolled up (6:13–14).
3. Every mountain and island is moved out of place (6:14).
4. The people of earth retreat to caves in the mountains (6:15).
5. The survivors call upon the mountains and the rocks to fall on them, so as to hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb" (6:16)

 

[ewq1938]

This word in Greek is "kai". It is a joining word or what we call in English, a compound word. The Strong's number for it is G2532. It can be translated as "and", "also", "even", "indeed", and "but". So lets use the word "but" instead of "and" to see if it makes even better chronological sense.

It doesn't. The dead do not resurrect before Christ returns.

Here's the passage using "but" for every G2532:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died but rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, but with the trump of God: but the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: but so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


I think the original translation by Greek scholars is best.

 

[1Tonne]

The GWT is not the judgment seat of Christ. What specific judgment are you trying to convince people, is going to happen?

There is only one judgment seat. The GWT. People who believe in the rapture try to make a second one called the Bema seat judgement. They say that this is where the Christians are judged for all the good things that they do.
I could ask you, where do you find your Bema seat judgement in the bible? There is only one and you will not find another. Rapturists are the ones who are trying to convince everyone that there is 2 judgements (one for believers and one for non believers) but it is just not there.

Do you think those at the GWT, can ask God to keep them in the Lamb's book of life, and remove them from His judgment?

Are those at the judgment seat of Christ, going to ask if they can be removed from the Lamb's book of life and cast into the Lake of Fire?

If you believe in the sacrifice that Jesus did and if you repent from your sins while on earth, then your name will be in the book of life. If you did not believe then there is no way to plead your way out of your punishment.

 

[ewq1938]

Rapturists are the ones who are trying to convince everyone that there is 2 judgements (one for believers and one for non believers) but it is just not there.

Of course it's there.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs.



John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.

Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

 

[1Tonne]

no ... there is no such thing as an eternal burning place (if that is what you are promoting) .... that is nonsensical .... not taught in His Word ... the god of torture is right out of the playbook of satan distorting the Word of God and being propagated through churches no less.

It does not say only martyrs .... that is you reading what you think into scripture.

well ... yes it is ...

Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They (all of them) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Not just martyrs my friend.

What bible are you reading from? It sounds like Jehovah's Witness (Not being rude. Just inquisitive)

Your Bible:
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Your bible has added extra words "and those".
Check out what the NKJV says
"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

Also lets look at NASB
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands"

There is no separation in the martyrs. The martyrs are the ones who were witness's for the gospel of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

So it is just the martyrs my friend.

 

[1Tonne]

no ... there is no such thing as an eternal burning place (if that is what you are promoting) .... that is nonsensical .... not taught in His Word ... the god of torture is right out of the playbook of satan distorting the Word of God and being propagated through churches no less.

I do not know what your bible says but mine says this.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -
Rev 14:9-12
......he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night
Rev 21:8
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Gods wrath is also a fire I do not want to ever face.
Jeremiah 4:4
"Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds."

This is not a God of torture but a God of Justice. God would not be just if he allowed sinners to get away with their sin like what you are saying. God does not say, "You are guilty of sin but I love you that much that I am going to make this as painless as possible." He is angry at them.
We do not understand how evil our sins are. Even our righteous deeds are but filthy rags. So our evil deed are way worse than filthy rags. So much so that we do not understand how evil were are.

 

[1Tonne]

Really? Have you read the Book of Revelation? Here's four examples for God's wrath... very clearly from scripture... straight from God.

Ch. 6: Seven Seals

Ch. 8-11: Seven Trumpets

Ch. 15: Seven Final Plagues

Ch. 16: Seven Bowls of Wrath


Now, I don't dispute that the Anti-Christ (Satan incarnate), is going to do some bad things to Tribulation Saints.... but it is not wrath.... God's wrath, over 7 years, will decrease the world population from 7.6 Billion to about 1 Billon.

In regard to Christians during the tribulation.... I have ministered to hundreds of people, just in the past couple years. Some have accepted Christ, but most have not. But they continue to be my friend. I am one example of millions of Christians that are sharing our faith. The minute all these people realize that Big_John has disappeared, they will fall to their knees and repent. There will be millions that do it, as they will immediately understand what just happened. All these people are the Tribulation Saints. And the ones that "get it" early, they will be evangelists to others. I honestly believe 100's of millions will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior during that horrible 7 years. Unfortunately..... they will all die a physical death.
............

You are correct with the Seals being Gods wrath. I did not think of those. I only thought of Satins wrath against Gods people that causes the martyrs.
In saying this, Life is not easy. If God was going to save all the believers by taking them up, then why are their any martyrs at all. This is a race and it is hard. We have to run right to the end even if things are not going our way.
But like I said, everybody will be left because it is only the martyrs who are taken up in the first resurrection.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But, the dead in Christ will rise first.
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

 

[1Tonne]

It doesn't. The dead do not resurrect before Christ returns.

Here's the passage using "but" for every G2532:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died but rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, but with the trump of God: but the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: but so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


I think the original translation by Greek scholars is best.

Did you read what you just wrote. It still made sense - Thanks
It would be grammatically wrong though it still works. So yes, they could have done that but that would be bad English. Obviously a translator will try to put in the word that works best in the sentence. With Strongs G2532 you could use "and", "also", "even", "indeed" or "but"
In verse 16, regarding the second "and", the 2 words that would make the sentence sound correct are "and" or "but". They had a 50/50 chance of getting it right.

The scholars were translating something of the future where they did not know exactly what was going to happen. So a simple error like this can easily change the meaning of something major.

Unfortunately, by misinterpreting this one word, it helps people who believe in the rapture to believe that their false belief is correct. This one word made the Rapture. Take it out and replace it with "but" and the rapture theory falls to pieces.
So I can understand hard core rapture people not liking this truth.

 

[Acts29]

I have looked up on the CF the word rapture expecting to find a thread that is similar to what I believe the rapture is but I have not been able to find a similar rapture theory. To me, this theory made way more sense than any of the other theories. (I am sure this is already out there but I might as well post it up)

In 1Thes 4:17 it says “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

The English phrase “caught up” (NASB) translates the Greek word harpazõ, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” This is the Greek word from which the English word “harpoon” is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. So the word Rapture does appear in the Bible but the question then becomes, who are “we who are alive” and when does this happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

After reading 1Thes 4:13-18, we can conclude that the people who are alive will not go to be with Jesus until “the dead in Christ” have been raised first. So, the question is, who are these dead believers in Christ? In Revelation 20:4-6 it speaks about this first resurrection of the dead. This verse gives us insight into who these believers are and what they do. These believers who are raised first are not all the believers, but some who were willing to give their lives in the name of Christ during the time of the tribulation. They come back with him and reign for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

So what 1Thes 4:13-18 is saying is that the martyrs are raised first and they reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then those that remain (Christian and non-Christian) will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air after the 1000 years (for the day of Judgment). So, the rapture that everyone talks about could actually be at the very end of the 1000 years when God gathers everyone, Christian and Non-Christian for judgement. Everyone will be “caught up together”, or “Snatched up” all at the same time.

Welcome!

The rapture and resurrection are not the same thing.
Resurrection is when the saints receive their immortal bodies, forever. Starting with the beheaded saints of the tribulation first, followed by everyone else after the Millennium.
The rapture is simply a raising of the dead in Christ to take them into heaven, along with the living at that time. The saints have no need of an immortal body in heaven. Their spirit is sufficient for heaven. This makes it obvious that the raptured saints are not returning to the earth for the Millennium.

In Matthew 25:31-33 it says that we are all gathered together at the same time. That is non-Christians and Christians at the same time. The sheep and Goats at the same time. Then Jesus will separate the non-Christians from the Christians at the Judgement seat.

Matt 25:31-33
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. “And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left."
Matthew continues to explain the judgement further in the remainder of Matthew 25

The Matthew 25 event is to separate the gentiles. The evil ones being judged. This occurs at the beginning of the Millennium after the tribulation and does not involve the saints currently on earth. Contrary to popular belief, the rapture isn't the end of the church on earth. People will realize and believe after seeing the rapture. Wouldn't you!?

In Rev 20:12 and Romans 14:10 it says that everyone will be judged; So, those that believe in Christ will be judged too (Hebrews 10:30).

Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books"
Heb 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, ”says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.

After God gathers everyone, they are judged. This makes sense as there are many people who believe in Christ but they do not repent. So to find the true believers of Christ each person will give an account of how they lived. Did they turn from their sin, and did they really have faith in the sacrifice that Jesus did? If so, God will grant them mercy.

After the Millennium, the DEAD are judged, not the living. The saints already in heaven and those in the first resurrection have no part of this judgement.

Another verse that people who believe in the rapture use is 1Corinthians 15:51-52.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non Christians as well as Christians. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

So yes, there is a rapture but not as a lot of Christians think. It is the final trumpet call in Revelation.

I hope this makes sense. If you do think that this is not correct, please let me know how as I would like to learn. Cheers and God Bless.

The 1 Cor 15 passage is not about the rapture. It is the second resurrection after the Millennium. At that time, all the saints, including those in heaven, will receive their immortal bodies. Those taken up in the rapture spent the Millennium in heaven. Once the new heaven and new earth is made, THEN they will need new bodies, which will happen instantly.
Also, the LAST trumpet is not the 7th trumpet. The last trumpet is the end of the Millennium, the end of this age. Jesus will send out the reapers/angels to gather all the wicked FIRST and cast them into the fire, then gather the wheat/saints into His barn/heaven. No one is left on earth because it is about to be remade for the new eternal age.

 

[1Tonne]

Of course it's there.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs.

Yes. There is this but I am talking about a judgement that includes all the dead Christians. Rapturists say that this is all the dead Christians to justify their belief in 1Thes 4:16 which as I have shown, could have been translated incorrectly quite easily with just a conjunction word.

John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.

I never said they were the same. (not sure where you got that). Rev 20:4-5 says like you said, that judges are on the thrones and then there are the souls of the martyrs. The martyrs are risen back to life and return with Christ to earth and reign for 1000 years with him. But no were else in the bible does it say that any believers comes to life then. Only at the GWT judgement do other believers come back to life.

Matt:25:34-46
Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.

You missed the verses before Matt 25:34. (You need to read the whole thing and stop selecting parts that you like and ignoring others) Look at Matt 25:32
"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."
If goats and sheep are herded together normally to separate them you will send them down a little ally in single file within the penned off area and at the end of the ally is a gate that you can move left or right to separate them. This is the where God judges if they are believers or not. So both the sheep and goats are judged and separated at the same time.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

This is speaking about suffering for God on earth. It says "For the time is come". It does not say, "for the time will come". This is talking about suffering and enduring on earth. Suffering on earth is a testing time.

 

[eleos1954]

What bible are you reading from? It sounds like Jehovah's Witness (Not being rude. Just inquisitive)

Your Bible:
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Your bible has added extra words "and those".
Check out what the NKJV says
"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

Also lets look at NASB
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands"

There is no separation in the martyrs. The martyrs are the ones who were witness's for the gospel of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

So it is just the martyrs my friend.

I am not of any organized religion .... I do not attend organized church ... I do diligently study His Word.

Witnesses

• First, there is the witness of God the Father. In John 8:18b, Jesus said, "The Father who sent me bears witness about me.
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• Jesus, God the Son, also bore witness to Himself. He said, "If I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going" (John 8:14).
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• Third is the witness of God the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus promised to send when He returned to heaven: "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me" (John 15:26).
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• Jesus also pointed to His works: "The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me" (John 10:25b). This is an important emphasis in this Gospel; John records marvelous works Jesus performed to demonstrate His deity.
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• Fifth is the witness of Scripture. The most important purpose of the Old Testament was to give prophecies that would be fulfilled in Jesus; to teach God's will in a way that would be completed by Jesus; and by various means to symbolize and anticipate Jesus' coming and the salvation He would bring. Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me" (John 5:39).
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• One of the Old Testament's prophecies concerned a forerunner to the Messiah, whose ministry would resemble that of the prophet Elijah. This is John the Baptist, the sixth of John's witnesses.
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• John's seventh witness is Jesus' disciples, including John himself. Jesus told them, "You also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning" (John 15:27).
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• The eighth witness is the men and women who personally encountered Jesus. One was the Samaritan woman whom Jesus met by the well. After Jesus had revealed Himself to her, she went throughout her town presenting her witness: "Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?" (John 4:29).
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• Another was the man who was born blind, to whom Jesus miraculously gave sight. When the religious leaders tried to silence Him, He gave this witness: "One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see" (John 9:25).

Many witnesses .... not just the beheaded ones.

Revelation 14:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.

 

[eleos1954]

I do not know what your bible says but mine says this.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -
Rev 14:9-12
......he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night
Rev 21:8
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Gods wrath is also a fire I do not want to ever face.
Jeremiah 4:4
"Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds."

This is not a God of torture but a God of Justice. God would not be just if he allowed sinners to get away with their sin like what you are saying. God does not say, "You are guilty of sin but I love you that much that I am going to make this as painless as possible." He is angry at them.
We do not understand how evil our sins are. Even our righteous deeds are but filthy rags. So our evil deed are way worse than filthy rags. So much so that we do not understand how evil were are.

Jesus says if we have seen Him we have seen the father. Jesus did not torture ANYONE ... in fact did not promote violence in any way.

Indeed there will be a final judgement where God will destroy satan and the demonic angels and all the wicked .... but that was their choice. This is God's strange act .... strange because it is out of His character of love, but necessary for Him to do to exterminate sin that causes death for eternity (and He will do it). So that is His final justice. There is a spiritual war going on and He will indeed end it for eternity ... and AMEN!

Propagating the god of torture .... is right out of satans playbook of distorting the true character of God which is love .... not torture.

God is love and love does not torture.

Death for eternity or life for eternity.

Death for eternity .... is the justice .... life for eternity is the reward.

Are you going to be happy in heaven, knowing people including friends and/or family members are being tortured .... for eternity no less? GOOD GRIEF .... spending eternity in a constant state of mourning? No thank you. What kind of a heaven is that?

 

[1Tonne]

I just don't understand why people have such a twisted view of the character of our God. It is a pathetic god that would drag his church through his wrath. We are in the age of grace and God is very, very merciful.

God is merciful but but we also need to remember he is just too.
This can be where a lot of people go wrong when preaching the Gospel. They say that God is loving and merciful and that all should come to him for eternal life. While this is correct, it does not tell the person the whole story and it does not help the person to have a repentant heart. So Gods justice needs to be taught as well and this can be scary.
Now, you cannot scare a child into loving you. Likewise, you cannot scare someone into loving God. But the fear of Gods Justice and his Judgement will keep them from sinning. Fear helps them depart from sin and live a holy life. If they realise how unworthy they are (This is were Gods law is good), they will have a better understanding of the sacrifice that Jesus did on the cross for them and they will also understand more about the grace that was given to them. Knowing this, they will humble themselves and honour God more. Then by reading his word and praying, they create a relationship with him, and this is where love is created in the converts heart. Love comes by a relationship with God and not by fear. The fear only keeps us from sin. Then if a person truly loves him they will no longer want to sin and they will not longer have a fear of God. Perfect love casts out all fear.
God is Just but God is good[/QUOTE]

 

[eleos1954]

God is merciful but but we also need to remember he is just too.
This can be where a lot of people go wrong when preaching the Gospel. They say that God is loving and merciful and that all should come to him for eternal life. While this is correct, it does not tell the person the whole story and it does not help the person to have a repentant heart. So Gods justice needs to be taught as well and this can be scary.
Now, you cannot scare a child into loving you. Likewise, you cannot scare someone into loving God. But the fear of Gods Justice and his Judgement will keep them from sinning. Fear helps them depart from sin and live a holy life. If they realise how unworthy they are (This is were Gods law is good), they will have a better understanding of the sacrifice that Jesus did on the cross for them and they will also understand more about the grace that was given to them. Knowing this, they will humble themselves and honour God more. Then by reading his word and praying, they create a relationship with him, and this is where love is created in the converts heart. Love comes by a relationship with God and not by fear. The fear only keeps us from sin. Then if a person truly loves him they will no longer want to sin and they will not longer have a fear of God. Perfect love casts out all fear.
God is Just but God is good

[/QUOTE]

you seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth ....

"But the fear of Gods Justice and his Judgement will keep them from sinning."

"Love comes by a relationship with God and not by fear."

 

[1Tonne]

you seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth ....

"But the fear of Gods Justice and his Judgement will keep them from sinning."

"Love comes by a relationship with God and not by fear."

Not sure if you are trying to be nice or insult. Sorry

Proverbs 16:6
By the fear of the Lord men depart from Evil

 

[PesachPup]

Col 3:1-4 KJV 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above,
[SEEK Things that are above WHERE???]
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

WHEN Christ shall appear... THEN.....
shall we appear WITH HIM...[WHERE? ]
with him IN GLORY.
WHERE is that glory?
It is where Christ sits at the right hand of Father God! We shall appear in glory where God dwells... WHEN???
None other than WHEN CHRIST SHALL APPEAR!

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[1Tonne]

But there is 2 appearances. The first with the Martyrs where he comes to reign for 1000 years and then the second in the clouds and we who are left over will go to meet him in the air. The perishable will become imperishable. Those who are left (not martyrs) then go to the GWT and those who repented and believed will go to be with him in Glory.