8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Hebrews 2:8
Here is my take, Revelation 20:5 is salvation and the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:13, Acts 2:33, Revelation 1:6,9)
Destruction of heaven and earth Revelation 20:11 (see 2 Peter 3:10,12)
The physical Resurrections Revelation 20:12-15 (see John 5:28-29)
Why don't you stop just saying this, and demonstrate from the scriptures why you think this is correct.And where have I contradicted any of this? Only there isnt going to be a Rapture just a single Second Coming!
If you want to say, "this is my take." Fine, that is wholly within your right. But you trespass ( that is, sin) when you say that those who reject your "take" are heretics.
Dougg, Ps 2 is used over and over by the apostles about the resurrection, about the kingdom that came that knocked other kingdoms out of its way without human hands.
Technically Rev.6:2 (Rom.1:18), ie, non-miraculous preliminary judgments, began at Lk.21:24, ie, 70 A.D. and continues to thd "1" so called "Rapture," (Parousia) ie, the "1" ending of the world as we know it, ie, continue even after Satan's loosing.
The Trumpest of Revelation depict miraculous preliminariy destrcutive religious delusions in sync with the Seals throughout the world, and even in the Churches till Rev.20:7 where Satan is loosed personally. Aslo began at 70 A.D. and happening now (IIThess.2:10b).
Old Jack
Christ compares his coming as happening in every day times... Like Lot and Noah. Where society is carrying on as normal, and then the saints are removed before the destruction...
6 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. - Matt 24
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. -Luke 25
Revelation wasn't a sealed prophecy like Daniel's because
A. It was written to the Seven Churches in Asia Rev. 1:4,10-11
B. the things which must soon take place Rev. 1:1
for the time is near. Rev. 1:3
the things which must soon take place. Rev. 22:6
Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Rev. 22:10
This suggests to me Revelation is largely preterist prophecies for the 1st century AD Christians. 1000 year reign of Christ is his reign between Pentecost to his Second Coming.
His Kingdom is not of this world (and IT WILL NEVER BE OF THIS WORLD) and His Kingdom will never end (IT CAN NOT BE SHAKEN, DESTROYED OR REMADE, OR INVADED).
I can't agree with your premise.If, by "rapture", you mean the first resurrection, then your rapture idea is not heresy.
But - - - if you mean "pre-trib rapture" . . . why do you mean this and believe this?
To me, heresy means that you prefer not only an idea but whoever is promoting that idea, in a way so you are separating yourself from Christians, in order to stay with whoever is your favorite mainly because of an idea. So, if your pre-trib rapture idea is to you only an opinion you are still testing prayerfully, then I'd say it is not heresy, in your case. Or, even if you are sure of your pre-trib rapture idea, but you are not looking down on others with a different view, I would say your idea by itself is not really a heresy. But if your pre-trib thing has you fighting with and looking down on Christians who believe in post-trib, then your belief is self-righteous and therefore heretical, self-favoring at least your own self over others.
But I would say you are not a heretic, if you favor your wrong idea but do not totally cut yourself off from other Christians with other views. After all, the disciples of Jesus struggled with one another about who was the greatest, but Jesus kept them as His disciples and did not give up on themThey were not only trying to promote some idea, but were trying to promote their own selves over others. But Jesus still did not reject them as heretics.
Even if pre-trib were correct, there can be unscriptural reasons for believing in a pre-trib rapture.
(1) Saying the Bible directly teaches pre-trib is not correct. I have found not one scripture which directly and in plain and simple wording says anything like, "Jesus will come back and resurrect us before the great tribulation."
(2) There are pre-trib people who believe certain ones will be saved during the great tribulation; yet, these pre-tribbers do not want to be here to love and help our newborn brothers and sisters who will be born during the tribulation. I find it interesting, how ones so insist we need mature seasoned pastors and other experienced church members; yet, they see no need for newborns right in the tribulation itself to have our decades-seasoned ministers and other mentors to be there for them. If the church is cleared out before the trib, which is said to be seven years long, then no Christian in the trib will have more than seven years Christian experience. So, how can a pre-trib person believe we so need our more-than-seven-years experienced ministers, but newborns in the worst of all times will not need our pastors and others???? And why don't you love them enough to volunteer to Jesus, that if He pleases you would appreciate staying here in order to help your newborn brothers and sisters in the trib? In case you would like Jesus to just whoosh you out so you don't suffer for Him and you don't care about the newborns of the trib having you to help them, then it could be your way of believing pre-trib is not only unscriptural but anti-love. Make sure about if your reasons are scriptural and according to love. "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
(3) Ones argue that God has not appointed us to wrath, and therefore He will not have us going through the trib. Well, what about the newborns, then, who will be in the trib.? Do you think they will not be safe from our Father's wrath? If they are safe, why wouldn't you be? Our Father is not like some abusive father who in his wrath hurts his well-behaved children along with the naughty ones. Our Father has self-control. This can be demonstrated by how Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego were right in that fiery furnace and the flames did not hurt them, at all, right while those flames took out the evil men who threw them into the furnace. Like this, our Father's trib judgments will only effect evil people, and will actually help to control them so they can't mess with us except as our Father has planned and controls. If you think "God" has a self-control problem, it is Satan who has this problem, not our Father; so if you think that in the trib you would be in danger from God's wrath . . . whose child are you? And do you have God and Satan mixed up, if you feel God in His wrath would hurt you who are a His child? Satan is the one who in wrath has his self-control problem; God our Father does not have such a problem, as we also can see through Psalm 91:7 which, to me, says thousands of evil people may fall at your left and right hands but it will not come near you.
(4) Ones fear that they would not be able to make it and do well in the trib, and therefore Jesus has to rapture them before all the trouble there will be in the trib. Again . . . then . . . how is it that newborn Christians in the trib will serve the LORD (consider Revelation chapter 7), but you would not be able to do well "there"?? If you want to be raptured because you feel you don't have what it takes to serve our Father during great trouble, possibly your reason for believing in pre-trib is anti-faith. Do not doubt how our Father is able to take care of us in any situation . . . easily and breezily and beautifully in His love > depending on Him > it is not about you being able (the way you are, now) ! ! ! !"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9)
Grow more, discover how God proves Himself to you, then see what you believeWhat you can believe can be connected with how your character is now.
If, by "rapture", you mean the first resurrection, then your rapture idea is not heresy.
But - - - if you mean "pre-trib rapture" . . . why do you mean this and believe this?
To me, heresy means that you prefer not only an idea but whoever is promoting that idea, in a way so you are separating yourself from Christians, in order to stay with whoever is your favorite mainly because of an idea.
So, if your pre-trib rapture idea is to you only an opinion you are still testing prayerfully, then I'd say it is not heresy, in your case. Or, even if you are sure of your pre-trib rapture idea, but you are not looking down on others with a different view, I would say your idea by itself is not really a heresy. But if your pre-trib thing has you fighting with and looking down on Christians who believe in post-trib, then your belief is self-righteous and therefore heretical, self-favoring at least your own self over others.
But I would say you are not a heretic, if you favor your wrong idea but do not totally cut yourself off from other Christians with other views. After all, the disciples of Jesus struggled with one another about who was the greatest, but Jesus kept them as His disciples and did not give up on themThey were not only trying to promote some idea, but were trying to promote their own selves over others. But Jesus still did not reject them as heretics.
Even if pre-trib were correct, there can be unscriptural reasons for believing in a pre-trib rapture.
(1) Saying the Bible directly teaches pre-trib is not correct. I have found not one scripture which directly and in plain and simple wording says anything like, "Jesus will come back and resurrect us before the great tribulation."
(2) There are pre-trib people who believe certain ones will be saved during the great tribulation; yet, these pre-tribbers do not want to be here to love and help our newborn brothers and sisters who will be born during the tribulation. I find it interesting, how ones so insist we need mature seasoned pastors and other experienced church members; yet, they see no need for newborns right in the tribulation itself to have our decades-seasoned ministers and other mentors to be there for them. If the church is cleared out before the trib, which is said to be seven years long, then no Christian in the trib will have more than seven years Christian experience. So, how can a pre-trib person believe we so need our more-than-seven-years experienced ministers, but newborns in the worst of all times will not need our pastors and others???? And why don't you love them enough to volunteer to Jesus, that if He pleases you would appreciate staying here in order to help your newborn brothers and sisters in the trib? In case you would like Jesus to just whoosh you out so you don't suffer for Him and you don't care about the newborns of the trib having you to help them, then it could be your way of believing pre-trib is not only unscriptural but anti-love. Make sure about if your reasons are scriptural and according to love. "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
(3) Ones argue that God has not appointed us to wrath, and therefore He will not have us going through the trib. Well, what about the newborns, then, who will be in the trib.? Do you think they will not be safe from our Father's wrath? If they are safe, why wouldn't you be? Our Father is not like some abusive father who in his wrath hurts his well-behaved children along with the naughty ones. Our Father has self-control. This can be demonstrated by how Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego were right in that fiery furnace and the flames did not hurt them, at all, right while those flames took out the evil men who threw them into the furnace. Like this, our Father's trib judgments will only effect evil people, and will actually help to control them so they can't mess with us except as our Father has planned and controls. If you think "God" has a self-control problem, it is Satan who has this problem, not our Father; so if you think that in the trib you would be in danger from God's wrath . . . whose child are you? And do you have God and Satan mixed up, if you feel God in His wrath would hurt you who are a His child? Satan is the one who in wrath has his self-control problem; God our Father does not have such a problem, as we also can see through Psalm 91:7 which, to me, says thousands of evil people may fall at your left and right hands but it will not come near you.
(4) Ones fear that they would not be able to make it and do well in the trib, and therefore Jesus has to rapture them before all the trouble there will be in the trib. Again . . . then . . . how is it that newborn Christians in the trib will serve the LORD (consider Revelation chapter 7), but you would not be able to do well "there"?? If you want to be raptured because you feel you don't have what it takes to serve our Father during great trouble, possibly your reason for believing in pre-trib is anti-faith. Do not doubt how our Father is able to take care of us in any situation . . . easily and breezily and beautifully in His love > depending on Him > it is not about you being able (the way you are, now) ! ! ! !"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9)
Grow more, discover how God proves Himself to you, then see what you believeWhat you can believe can be connected with how your character is now.
If, by "rapture", you mean the first resurrection, then your rapture idea is not heresy.
But - - - if you mean "pre-trib rapture" . . . why do you mean this and believe this?
To me, heresy means that you prefer not only an idea but whoever is promoting that idea, in a way so you are separating yourself from Christians, in order to stay with whoever is your favorite mainly because of an idea.
This is also unquestionably correct. I am a leader of pre-trib thought, but I have seen many ridiculous "proofs" offered for it, even as I have seen many ridiculous "proofs" offered to disprove it.So, if your pre-trib rapture idea is to you only an opinion you are still testing prayerfully, then I'd say it is not heresy, in your case. Or, even if you are sure of your pre-trib rapture idea, but you are not looking down on others with a different view, I would say your idea by itself is not really a heresy. But if your pre-trib thing has you fighting with and looking down on Christians who believe in post-trib, then your belief is self-righteous and therefore heretical, self-favoring at least your own self over others.
But I would say you are not a heretic, if you favor your wrong idea but do not totally cut yourself off from other Christians with other views. After all, the disciples of Jesus struggled with one another about who was the greatest, but Jesus kept them as His disciples and did not give up on themThey were not only trying to promote some idea, but were trying to promote their own selves over others. But Jesus still did not reject them as heretics.
Even if pre-trib were correct, there can be unscriptural reasons for believing in a pre-trib rapture.
This is also correct. But it is true of every position on the timing of the rapture. The Bible very clearly sys it will happen, but does not say when it will happen.(1) Saying the Bible directly teaches pre-trib is not correct. I have found not one scripture which directly and in plain and simple wording says anything like, "Jesus will come back and resurrect us before the great tribulation."
Here you totally misunderstand the motivation of pre-tribulation teaching. I would have to admit that there are indeed some who "like" this doctrine because it says they will not be here during that time. But no true Christian teacher advocates any doctrine just because he "likes" it.(2) There are pre-trib people who believe certain ones will be saved during the great tribulation; yet, these pre-tribbers do not want to be here to love and help our newborn brothers and sisters who will be born during the tribulation. I find it interesting, how ones so insist we need mature seasoned pastors and other experienced church members; yet, they see no need for newborns right in the tribulation itself to have our decades-seasoned ministers and other mentors to be there for them. If the church is cleared out before the trib, which is said to be seven years long, then no Christian in the trib will have more than seven years Christian experience. So, how can a pre-trib person believe we so need our more-than-seven-years experienced ministers, but newborns in the worst of all times will not need our pastors and others???? And why don't you love them enough to volunteer to Jesus, that if He pleases you would appreciate staying here in order to help your newborn brothers and sisters in the trib? In case you would like Jesus to just whoosh you out so you don't suffer for Him and you don't care about the newborns of the trib having you to help them, then it could be your way of believing pre-trib is not only unscriptural but anti-love. Make sure about if your reasons are scriptural and according to love. "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
Yes, the "wrath" argument is very weak.(3) Ones argue that God has not appointed us to wrath, and therefore He will not have us going through the trib. Well, what about the newborns, then, who will be in the trib.? Do you think they will not be safe from our Father's wrath? If they are safe, why wouldn't you be? Our Father is not like some abusive father who in his wrath hurts his well-behaved children along with the naughty ones. Our Father has self-control. This can be demonstrated by how Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego were right in that fiery furnace and the flames did not hurt them, at all, right while those flames took out the evil men who threw them into the furnace. Like this, our Father's trib judgments will only effect evil people, and will actually help to control them so they can't mess with us except as our Father has planned and controls. If you think "God" has a self-control problem, it is Satan who has this problem, not our Father; so if you think that in the trib you would be in danger from God's wrath . . . whose child are you? And do you have God and Satan mixed up, if you feel God in His wrath would hurt you who are a His child? Satan is the one who in wrath has his self-control problem; God our Father does not have such a problem, as we also can see through Psalm 91:7 which, to me, says thousands of evil people may fall at your left and right hands but it will not come near you.
You need to understand what we are saying a little better before you attack what we say. I can honestly say that in my fifty plus years of involvement, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire pre-trib movement express even one of the attitudes you speak of here.(4) Ones fear that they would not be able to make it and do well in the trib, and therefore Jesus has to rapture them before all the trouble there will be in the trib. Again . . . then . . . how is it that newborn Christians in the trib will serve the LORD (consider Revelation chapter 7), but you would not be able to do well "there"?? If you want to be raptured because you feel you don't have what it takes to serve our Father during great trouble, possibly your reason for believing in pre-trib is anti-faith. Do not doubt how our Father is able to take care of us in any situation . . . easily and breezily and beautifully in His love > depending on Him > it is not about you being able (the way you are, now) ! ! ! !"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9)
Grow more, discover how God proves Himself to you, then see what you believeWhat you can believe can be connected with how your character is now.
2 Thess. 2:7 + 2 Thess. 2:3 + Rev. 20:7?
Yes, that is pretty straightforward, if, but only if, you are correct in your assumption that thus is speaking of the rapture.
That's the kind of answer I expected..."contrived". The passage just doesn't teach that. It's plain.
You MUST contrive it to get that...and you just did...
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