The question cessationists must answer.

[swordsman1]

I have been doing such work for about 30 years. Its a long story. But I'm not hear to speak of myself. But of the true ministry and God's order among the saints and body ministry. All the work of the Spirit is needed today as much as ever.

But the gifts given to men in the church are all equally weighty. If a man claims to have a pastor gift or evangelist gift, we must take all gifts as seriously as another. No man can make himself into any gift or calling.

Ah, I was wondering why you are so vehement about there being apostles today. You claim to be one yourself!

Are you an eye-witness to the resurrected Christ?

Were you appointed by Christ himself?

Do you have the marks of an apostle and perform miracles such as raising people from the dead?

Do you speak infallibly for Christ as his spokesman?

Should we regard your posts as scripture?

 

[Deborah D]

The two prophets are proof that prophecy has now ceased! God would not have to specifically raise up 2 prophets if the gift of prophecy was still active.

No, SM, you have it backwards. The fact that the two prophets will be raised up shows that prophecy is still active!

 

[W2L]

Should we regard your posts as scripture?

Great question. The answer is clearly no.

 

[W2L]

No, SM, you have it backwards. The fact that the two prophets will be raised up shows that prophecy is still active!

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Revelation 19:10)

 

[swordsman1]

There were many apostles after the resurrection and they are still needed for the church today until we all come in the unity of the faith unto the perfect man. Which we haven't all come to yet.

And we still have them. Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, James.... They are still building up the body of Christ and equipping his people.

The apostles after the resurrection like Paul, Barnabas, Silvanus, Timotheus and perhaps Titus, were in a different ministration.

That is not true. Paul regarded himself just as much an apostle as the Twelve.

• 2 Cor 11:5 "For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles."
• He associated himself himself with the Twelve 1 Cor 4:9 "God has put us apostles on display"
• He appealed to his eye-witness status as evidence of his apostleship.
• He performed miracles like the Twelve.
• He wrote more scripture than all the others put together.
• He was prepared to make a stand against Peter.
• Like the twelve he did not receive the gospel from any man, but from Christ himself (Gal. 1:11-12)

And nowhere does it say these five fold gifts ceased.

Apostles and prophets were for the foundation of the church with Christ the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). Are we still laying the foundation of the church?

 

[swordsman1]

If i did, I would need to be corrected and exhorted and warned.

Somebody having the gall to correct an apostle? The cheek.

 

[W2L]

Apostles and prophets were for the foundation of the church with Christ the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). Are we still laying the foundation of the church?

Good question.

 

[swordsman1]

Calling physical death a healing is one of the worst and cheapest forms of deception I have ever come across.
Nowhere in the scriptures do we find the Lord using that excuse.

Are we not cured of our sicknesses, pain and disabilities in heaven then?

 

[W2L]

Are we not cured of our sicknesses, pain and disabilities in heaven then?

Our inheritance is waiting in heaven. (1 Peter 1:4)

 

[swordsman1]

I quoted this verse from Mark earlier in the thread. SM said it was just a prediction and, of course, said it was questionable according to some versions....

I said it was a predictive prophecy, which was fulfilled in the 1st century. That's if it was really Mark talking. Virtually all bible scholars and commentators think it wasn't Mark.

HCSB, KJV and AMPC don't show it as being questionable. In truth this is a powerful prophecy, and it's a sure word.

HCSB and AMPC does. Their footnotes point out that v9-20 only appears in some manuscripts.

 

[swordsman1]

Well, here is where cessationists twist the debate: They define "prophesy" as "adding to scripture," as though God would intend every prophesy to be scripture.

But we see in scripture that can't be true.

All those prophets of the OT were busy men saying prophesies for both kings and commoners throughout their lives. But only a very, very few are in scripture.

Paul points out that there were prophets among the Corinthians, yet none of them is in scripture.

So the gift of prophesy is almost never intended for scripture, but for the edification of the individuals directly involved. Therefore the "adding to scripture" objection fails on its face.

Prophecy is the very words of God.

2 Peter 1:21: “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”​

How can one word of God be any less authoritative than another word of God? Prophecy is just as authoritative and infallible as scripture.

 

[swordsman1]

Here's an example: One day I attended church with a Christian neighbor and a friend of hers who was also a Christian. A powerful anointing came upon me and the Holy Spirit gave me a word for my neighbor's friend (I'll call her Jane). The word was to avoid the very appearance of evil in her relationship with her boyfriend, or her ministry would be hampered. I didn't really know this person. I knew where she worked, that she had a boyfriend, and that she was charismatic, but that was about it.

That afternoon, my neighbor called me on the phone and said, "What did you say to Jane?" She sounded very concerned. Come to find out, Jane had been sharing a hotel room with her boyfriend when they traveled; although, they had not been having sex. God was warning Jane through me.

Naysayers might be thinking that it was just a guess on my part, but I KNEW EXACTLY what God wanted me to say to her. There was no doubt in my mind. And Jane KNEW that it was a warning from God!

Did God speak actual words in English to pass on to Jane or was a feeling/thought that popped into your head?

(I know you won't give me a straight answer because I've asked you that question numerous times before. So I'll presume it is the latter.)

 

[swordsman1]

Early so called "fathers" quoted it way before the so called oldest manuscripts were used for modern versions. This section should be in the bible.

But maybe don't get too deep into the text and manuscripts here for now. It's a long talk 45 hours or so.

The long ending may have first appeared around 170AD but that doesn't make it genuine. That was still a hundred years after the gospel was written. There were other endings circulating at the same time (5 in total), and the long ending was the rarest. In 320AD Eusebius said that that nearly all copies of Mark that he had seen lacked the long ending. Copies of Mark with the long ending only became more common much later.

The most damning evidence though is from the text itself. It is plainly an addition.

Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament

(a) The vocabulary and style of verses 9-20 are non-Markan. (e.g. απιστεω, βλαπτω, βεβαιοω, επακολουθεω, θεαομαι, μετα ταυτα, πορευομαι, συνεργεω, υστερον are found nowhere else in Mark; and θανασιμον and τοις μετ αυτου γενομενοις, as designations of the disciples, occur only here in the New Testament).

(b) The connection between ver. 8 and verses 9-20 is so awkward that it is difficult to believe that the evangelist intended the section to be a continuation of the Gospel. Thus, the subject of ver. 8 is the women, whereas Jesus is the presumed subject in ver. 9; in ver. 9 Mary Magdalene is identified even though she has been mentioned only a few lines before (15.47 and 16.1); the other women of verses 1-8 are now forgotten; the use of αναστας δε and the position of πρωτον are appropriate at the beginning of a comprehensive narrative, but they are ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8. In short, all these features indicate that the section was added by someone who knew a form of Mark that ended abruptly with ver. 8 and who wished to supply a more appropriate conclusion. In view of the inconcinnities between verses 1-8 and 9-20, it is unlikely that the long ending was composed ad hoc to fill up an obvious gap; it is more likely that the section was excerpted from another document, dating perhaps from the first half of the second century.

The internal evidence for the shorter ending (2) is decidedly against its being genuine. Besides containing a high percentage of non-Markan words, its rhetorical tone differs totally from the simple style of Mark's Gospel.

 

[Hillsage]

[Rom 8:11 NLT] 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

[Jhn 10:18 NLT] 18 No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."

[Jhn 2:19 NLT] 19 "All right," Jesus replied. "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

I can only make a rational conclusion based upon what the text says. Who will raise Jesus? The Spirit? Christ Himself? And what about the plethora of passages that says that God will Raise Christ?

Great stuff to ponder. One God.

First off you only have 1 vers with the word spirit even in it....???? Second, capitalization is not determined by the GREEK in that verse, or any other. ALL the oldest manuscript copies we have of the NT are either written in continuous lower case or continuous upper case. Every time a translator thought it should be capitalized he did. And many times in different translations there is disagreement. According to a study bible I have called the Companion bible they capitalized either spirit or holy spirit 52 times when it never should have been.

Having prefaced with that information, let me say this. In a book I have which deals with every verse in the NT with the word "spirit/pneuma" in it. The English theologian authoring the book was an acclaimed scholar as well as author of a number of theological books. And he says that in chapter 8 of Romans 'the Holy Spirit of God' is not even mentioned until verse 16. Your Rom 8:11 verse falls short of that. But I'll deal with your post's ONLY verse, which even has the word spirit in it. But first I'll just quote it from a translation which reads a bit different (with the bold being added by me).

CLT Rom 8:11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.

Now his books comment concerning your verse was this;
"And if the pneuma (i.e. the new nature from God, the article being used grammatically to identify this pneuma with what has been said about it in verses above) of him that raised up Jesus from among the dead is dwelling in you, He that raised up the Christ from among the dead will quicken your mortal bodies also, on account of His pneuma (i.e., tthe Divine Nature) that dwelleth in you."

He goes on to add that the A.V. (old KJV) had small 's' in both cases in verse 11, but that the R.V. has the first with a 's' and the second with 'S'.

The fact that it is the 'spirit of "Christ in you" which is "the hope of glory", or a risen glorified body', and NOT GOD'S Holy Spirit of glory which is UPON YOU' confirms this position also.

So, I've said all that to basically say you are still coming up short as to my demand for proof that 'the Holy Spirit of God' dwells in you instead of just 'the holy spirit of Christ' (if born anew).

Now I'll give you 5 verses to trump your 1 saying the Holy Spirit of God never dwelled in Jesus either, as well as 7 verses saying the same for us.

MAT 12:18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him,

LUK 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove,

LUK 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.

JOH 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Now scriptures pertaining to the Holy Spirit is not in us. Note with this first one, the inconsistency of 5 disagreeing translations in the 'infallible word of God' (according to most anyway).

KJV JOEL 2:29 Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

NAS JOE 2:29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

"Spirit" = YLT, NIV NAS
"spirit" = KJV, RSV

LUK 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. THIS WAS STILL THE OT AND SPEAKS OF THE SAME PLACEMENT THEN THAT WE HAVE AFTER PENTECOST.

ACT 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;


ACT 2:17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,

ACT 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.

ACT 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them;

1PE 4:14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

NOW BEFORE ANYONE WANTS TO START QUOTING MORE VERSES SAYING I'M WRONG...REFUTE THESE SCRIPTURES FIRST. BECAUSE I CAN REFUTE ANY YOU 'THINK' STAND IN OPPOSITION TO THE TRUTH I'VE PRESENTED AND BELIEVE.

 

[swordsman1]

Just read what some of the people on this thread are saying about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Or what people mistakenly think are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deborah D]

Did God speak actual words in English to pass on to Jane or was a feeling/thought that popped into your head?

(I know you won't give me a straight answer because I've asked you that question numerous times before. So I'll presume it is the latter.)

What are you talking about??? God speaks to me in the only language I'm fluent in, unlike your incessant nonsensical babble.

 

[Deborah D]

Or what people mistakenly think are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You REALLY need to stop your immature goading. It's against TOS, and it's not Christlike.

 

[swordsman1]

paul didnt see The lord Jesus "in the flesh"
so that theories debunked before you started it.

1 Cor 15:5-8 He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

 

[Deborah D]

I said it was a predictive prophecy, which was fulfilled in the 1st century. That's if it was really Mark talking. Virtually all bible scholars and commentators think it wasn't Mark.



HCSB and AMPC does. Their footnotes point out that v9-20 only appears in some manuscripts.

Not in my Bible!

 

[Alithis]

1 Cor 15:5-8 He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

The lord jesus had ascended ... He saw him in glory shining with glory..After he had ascended.
That is not seeing him in flesh.