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The pre-tribulation Rapture theory is a Satanic Deception.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Riberra, May 19, 2014.

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  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest


  2. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

    The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).


    Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

    This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
  3. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Note that in Galatians 3:28, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females in any sense, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16, 1 Peter 3:7a).

    So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).


    Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his 1st coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished (by men) in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

    But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).


    In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

    When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

    Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

    All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
  4. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).


    Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

    Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

    And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Note that Matthew 24:20 doesn't require that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect (as far as God is concerned) at the time that Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath hasn't been in effect since Jesus' crucifixion (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

    Matthew 24:19-20 means that it will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants to flee (Matthew 24:16), just as will be more difficult to flee in the winter or on a sabbath. This would apply in cases where those fleeing don't have cars (or gasoline), and so will have to walk a long way to their place of refuge. For walking a long way will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants, and for anyone at a time of wintry cold and wind, rain, or snow, and for any Christian on the sabbath who believes that to walk a long way on the sabbath is a sin. Also, by the time that Matthew 24:15-20 is fulfilled in our future, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Judaea (southern Israel) could have reestablished sabbath police there, who could attack with sticks anyone trying to walk a long way on the sabbath.

    Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that it's a sin to even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they see that as breaking the commandment not to kindle a fire on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). So they could similarly forbid people to start a car on the sabbath, as this would be kindling a fire within its combustion engine. Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews could set up roadblocks to prevent anyone from driving a car anywhere on the sabbath.
  5. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Note that Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3), and he's of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). Indeed, Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history. For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. That's why later the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

    So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they're Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

    Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

    Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    United States
    Word of Faith

    How amazing: even GOD was confused about who was TRUE Israel, and punished the WRONG PEOPLE during Hitler's regime!

  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    United States
    Word of Faith
    You forgot: I and Old Timer won't be here. We get to fly away, because we BELIEVE. It will be YOU who will face the Beast, and find out for sure what God meant when He said you will be OVERCOME.

  8. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest


    I have no problem facing the beast,Im actually looking forward to it

    Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

    Matthew 10:28"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    Oh and just one more thing for ya,only those without the seal of God shall be overcome

    As a matter of fact he dos'nt overcome me,I overcome him

    Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

    Just another tid bit

    My name is written in the book

    Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2014
  9. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus when the catching up together (rapture) of the church will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

    At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).


    The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

    The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    United States
    Word of Faith

    One huge problem: Ephesians 6:11 is for the church age. It will be impossible to "stand against the wiles of the devil" during the 70th week, for the will of Our Father will have changed: His NEW will will be what has been written for that time: the saints will be OVERCOME. THAT is what you can have true faith for during the 70th week.

    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    So WHO "overcame him"??? It says "they." Who are they? It is all those whom the devil accused before God day and night. In other words, US TODAY. This is not necessarily speaking of those who will be overcome during the days of great tribulation. Certainly we have overcome him because we are born again. For those who were accused by him during the first half of the week (it won't be me or other pretrib believers - for we will be GONE) God gives a good hint that they will be overcome during the second half of the week - the days of great tribulation - since they loved not their life unto death. And that goes perfectly with what John and Daniel both said, that the saints WILL BE overcome. So when you are left behind, YOU will be overcome. You will not be able to use your faith against the Beast, because the ONLY word of God for that time is that you will be overcome. (You can have true faith in being overcome.) Church age promises will no longer work. It will be a new dispensation with a NEW promise: you will be overcome.

    Now see what the devil does the moment he is cast down. He goes immediately after the woman, that is the JEWS and Hebrews.

    Always remember, there will be only ONE WAY into heaven after you have been left behind by the pretrib rapture: Lose your head. If someone does manage to survive, and pass the sheep and goat judgment, they will be allowed entrance into the millennial kingdom. They will MISS the marriage and supper which will be held in heaven.

  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Rev_17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    These saints described above are Christians. You can call them "tribulation saints" if you want to, however the Greek word used is "hagios" which is the same word used to describe Christians in other parts of the New Testament. If they have "the testimony of Jesus Christ", they are Christians under the same New Testament Covenant as we are.

    There will not be a pretrib rapture. You are putting your "faith" in the so-called vision of a 15 year old girl. Her "Secret Rapture" vision of the Irvingites has produced the "Rapture Cult". It is a cult because you and others state that only some Christians will "fly away". You say the rest of us are Christians, but we will be "Left Behind" because we do not believe in the "Secret Rapture" vision of the teenage girl. It is another Gospel, which keeps some Christians from being part of "the Bride of Christ" because we do not believe the "Secret Rapture" interpretation. We have been warned not to preach another Gospel.
    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine

    When Christ comes for us, it will not be a secret. Every ear on the planet will hear the trump of God and every eye will see Christ coming in flaming fire with the angels. (2nd Thess. chapter 1 )
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    Those are Christians, yes. But they are the Jews who have turned to Jesus in the middle of the 7 years.

    There will certainly be others who become Christians during the 7 years, just not that particular group.
    Those are Christians. The issue is are they the unraptured church included or persons who become Christians after the rapture?

    That is over a long period of time since the days of the first Christians.

    I am not a pre-tribber, although it could take place pretrib, but anytime rapture. But I will say what you write about faith in a 15 year old girl's dream, is a preposterous statement because pre-tribbers are basing their view on bible passages - whether it turns out to be right or not remains - and not a 15 year old girl's dream.

    What you are doing is making a non-biblical irrational argument based on the timing cannot be pre-trib, not because the bible passages say otherwise, but because you are irrationally asserting that pre-tribbers are going by the story, instead of the bible passages which they make in their arguments.
  13. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    Their arguments in favor of a pretrib rapture are spurious at best.
    Exposing the “Secret Rapture”

    The main premise of the rapture theory has to do with whether I Thes. 4:13-18 is an earlier and separate resurrection (rapture or snatching away) than the resurrection mentioned in Matt. 24 and also the book of Revelation. In fairness to the author, I will address every argument used in this article. We now present the arguments from the articles and the tape in bold print:
    (1) Many attempts have been made to identify the revelations in Daniel, Zechariah, Matthew and Revelation with Paul's revelations here [I Thes. 4:13-18] and in I Corinthians 15. There are some similarities, especially in the use of such terms as "trumpet," "clouds" and "presence" (or "coming"). But it is the differences which make the difference!
    ANSWER: Do "the differences make the difference?" That is, if (certains elements) describing the events in one account are different from the events described in another account, does that necessarily prove that we are being presented with two totally different occurrences which will happen at two different times? This is probably the biggest argument that teachers of the rapture theory use to defend their teaching. "The differences make the difference." This statement might sound reasonable on the surface, but is it absolutely true?

    We could also say, "It is the similarities that make them the same." In archaeology, similarity in pottery design would tend to prove the same culture as other similar pottery. In reality, neither statement conclusively proves anything.
    The real answer is that more information is needed to make such a determination than what is presented in these statements.
    Let us be careful that we are not thrown by the word "different." Many times in Scriptural accounts of something, we are presented with "additional" information, or "more" information, and not "different contradictory" information.
    The Scriptures do not contradict. One account might leave out a piece of information, while another account might add a piece of information, yet they do not contradict. I hope to make this abundantly clear in the following pages.
    Let me present a number of "different" examples to broaden our understanding of this restricted statement which allows for only one supposed conclusion.
    We all remember the story of the three blind men from India who were allowed to touch three different parts of an elephant. All three blind men gave totally different reports on what they felt and what they thought this animal was like. Now, did the differences that all three men reported, really prove that they were touching three entirely different animals and not just one single ELEPHANT? This is not difficult to understand.
    Surely we can see and understand this from the four gospels. Many events are presented "differently," from Matthew to Mark to Luke to John, but if they don't contradict, they can still be the same event. Here are some examples of different facts that do not represent different events.
    Concerning Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus, we read in Acts 9 :7, "Now the men who are journeying with him stood dumbfounded, hearing, indeed, the sound, yet beholding no one."
    But we read in Acts 22:9,
    "Now those who are with me gaze, indeed, at the light, yet they hear not the voice of Him Who is speaking to me."
    In the first account Paul’s companions: Hear but don’t See
    In the second account Paul's companions: See but don’t Hear
    If we adopt the same logic used by rapturists, that things that differ in details must be different events, then we must conclude that Saul [Paul] was converted twice on two different trips to Damascus!
    Suppose I am planning a birthday party for my daughter, Viviane. Suppose also that we have sent out invitations outlining the time, place, and certain activities such as swimming and games. Now let's suppose one more time that as my daughter's birthday party approaches, I call her aside and privately inform her of the following secret information: "Viviane, behold I show you a secret [I don’t actually talk to my daughter like this]. We shall not all swim and play games only, but I am hiring a clown who will do magic tricks, and also a pony for all the children to ride."
    Now the invitations said nothing with regard to a "clown" or "a pony," did they? Does, however, this added, updated, secret information about the clown and pony somehow change the time, place, and even who's birthday (Viviane's) is being celebrated? No, of course not. Neither does one scriptural account which presents "added" or "missing" details not presented in a second account, automatically change them into two different events at two different times.
    Let’s look at a major event in the four Gospels, the crucifixion of our Lord. I will point out just a few seemingly different or even contradictory statements from the four Gospels in the same way rapturists point out differences in accounts of our Lord’s second coming. Here then are a few differences in the accounts:
    1. Judas greets Jesus in the garden with: "Rejoice, Rabbi!" (Mat. 26:49), but, "Rabbi; Rabbi" in (Mark 14:45).
    2. Matt. 26:49 says of Judas, "And he kisses Him fondly," but in John’s account Judas doesn’t kiss Jesus at all to identify Him.
    In John 18:5-9, Jesus, in fact, identifies Himself: "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus, the Nazarene."
    Jesus is saying to them, "I am He."
    Again, then, He inquires of them, "Whom are you seeking?" Now they Said, "Jesus, the Nazarene." Jesus answered, "I said to you that I am He."
    3. In Matt. 26:53 Jesus says, "Or are you supposing that I am not able to entreat My Father, and at present He will station by My side more than twelve legions of messengers?"
    Mark, Luke, and John do not make mention of these twelve legions of messengers.
    4. In Luke 22:50 "a certain one of them smites the slave of the chief priest and amputates his right ear," and Jesus "touching the ear, He heals him" (Ver. 51). In John 18:10, Simon Peter strikes off the ear of the chief priest’s slave, but in this account Jesus does not heal it.
    Comment: If this verse were speaking rather about our Lord’s coming, instead of His crucifixion, rapturists would think it reason to be two different events. One, where an unknown person strikes off an ear and Jesus heals it back. The second, where Peter is identified as the offender, strikes off an ear and Jesus does not heal it back. Do the differences really make them two different events?
    5. Mark 14:43 tells us that the ones who came to the garden looking for Jesus were, "the chief priests, Scribes, and elders." Whereas Matt. 26:47 mentions only, "the chief priests and elders." A whole category of people is left out--the scribes. Are we witnessing two different crucifixions at two different times? Later we will see how rapturists treat a scripture that fails to mention a specific group of people, such as "the dead." Their reasoning: "If they aren’t mentioned; they aren’t included." And therefore, they must be different events. Not true!
    6. Luke 22:61 says, "Ere a cock crows today, you will be renouncing me thrice."
    Mark 14:30 says, "... you, today, in this night, ere a cock crows twice, thrice will be denouncing me."
    Comment: Now I don’t have the time or space to clarify all these supposed differences or contradictions in these Scriptures. That’s not my purpose here. My point is to show that these are the kinds of different information presented in the Scriptures at times which lead people who aren’t careful in their study to conclude that these Scriptures must be speaking of two or more different events at different times, when really they are speaking of only one event at one time in history. (It just so happens, that I did write a paper about 35 years ago on this apparent contradiction regarding the crowing of cocks and Peter’s denial of his Lord . I don’t know if I could locate it again or not).
    7. Mark 14:54 says that they took Jesus from the garden to Caiaphas, the chief priest.
    But, John 18:13, says, "And they bind Him, and led Him away to Hannas, for he was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was the chief priest of that year."
    8. Luke 23:33 says two malefactors were hanged with Jesus.
    Matt. 27:38 says two robbers were crucified with Jesus. Also, Jesus promised one of the malefactors, life in paradise (Luke 23:39). Jesus didn’t promise anyone paradise in Matthew or Mark.
    9. Luke 23:7 says that Pilate sends Jesus to Herod. Herod returns Jesus back to Pilate clothed in splendid attire (Ver. 11). There is no other account of this trip to Herod. Did this unusual event take place at a different crucifixion?
    10. "And as they led Him away, getting hold of a certain Simon, a Cyrenian, coming from the field, they place the cross on him to carry behind Jesus" (Luke 23:26). However, John 19:17 says, "And, bearing the cross Himself, He came out to what is termed a Skull’s place."
    11. Matt. 26:34 says that they gave Jesus "wine and bile to drink," while Mark 15:23 says that they gave Him "wine with myrrh to drink"
    12. At Jesus’ crucifixion, Pilate placed a sign over the head of Jesus which read:
    A. "This is Jesus, the King of the Jews" (Matt. 27:36).
    B. "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26).
    C. "The King of the Jews is this (Luke 23:38).
    D. "Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).
    Clearly from the reasoning point of view of a rapturist, here are presented four different events. All signs are "different," and remember we are told that, "Not withstanding the similarities ... it is the differences that make the difference." Were there two or more different crucifixions? Were their two or more different Saviors?
    There are many more differences in the accounts of our Lord’s crucifixion than there are differences in the accounts of His second coming. Why then does no one believe or teach that there were two or more crucifixions of our Lord, yet millions believe He will return a second time, TWICE?
    I have pointed out only a few of the details dealing with the crucifixion of our Lord that are presented somewhat differently, details that are excluded in some accounts and included in others. And, need I even say it? We are not dealing with four different crucifixions of our Lord, or four different Lords, for that matter.
    Interestingly, the very same Scripture that tells us that Christ was offered up (crucified) only once, also tells us how many times our Lord will return for those awaiting Him for salvation:
    "And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging, thus Christ also, being offered ONCE for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith" (Heb. 9:27-28).

    Exposing the “Secret Rapture”
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  14. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    And YOU are Israel right.. regardless of the real Israel right in front of your own nose day after day..

    That's spurious at best..
  15. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    No hold on Doug... just about everything I believe is based upon that young girls dream..

    This Berean does speak the truth!
  16. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    I mean for starters... when I read about the marriage of the Lamb in heaven before His coming..

    The first thing I think of is that girls dream and make sure my beliefs align with that..

    There's an order to these things..
  17. TPeterY

    TPeterY But seek first the Kingdom of God....

    Riberra, if you really want to argue your case with credibility, post scriptures from the bible, not links to websites containing erroneous information.

    If we wanted to dig up false information, we can do this ourselves.

    Wanna see how easy this can be done? I googled "Post Tribulation is a satanic deception" and look what I found just in the first page.

    Why The Satanic Plan “Post-Tribulation-Rapture Theory” Is A Deception From Hell מדוע התכ×[bless and do not curse]ית השט×[bless and do not curse]ית (הודעת צרת התלהבות התאוריה) היא הו×[bless and do not curse]אה מגיהי×[bless and do not curse]ום. | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of Wo



    The fact is, anyone can create a webpage or a video on youtube and throw out opinions. There's billions of websites on the internal and anyone can find an article or video to make a case for their argument no matter how silly it sounds.

    Post facts (scriptures) not fiction (external links).


    One other thing, what is a "Secret Rapture?"

    Every Christian on the planet have heard or read about it. Even Atheists heard about it too. How is this a secret?

    Paul already explained the rapture in 1st Thess 4. He concluded in chapter 5 that it will not take the church by surprise and to stay confident of our salvation ahead.

    "So if we know about it and know it's coming, how is it a secret?" Are those that think it's a secret actually children of darkness pretending to be of the light?

    1 Thessalonians 5:4-8 New Living Translation (NLT)
    4) But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief. 5) For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night. 6) So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded. 7) Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk. 8) But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.

    Just because no one knows the day and hour makes it a secret?

    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  18. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    Then, when I think of the simple fact that the church of God is meeting the Lord in the air.. I check with the dream to make sure that Satan can't deceive Christians by resurrecting the dead in Christ first and then having those who remain and are alive to meet him in the air..

    That would be bad!
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    I find it amazing that no American pastor found the pre-trib rapture until John Darby came to America. However, we are told it comes from scripture. John Darby did not find it either until after the teenage girl's vision during 1830. Attempting to ignore her "vision" and claiming that it comes from scripture is part of the deception.

    There is a reason no American pastor found the pretrib version before Darby. It is not in scripture. You must twist the scriptures to get the pretrib doctrine to appear.

    You have to insert a trip to heaven after 1st Thess. Chapter 4. You have to say the entire trib. is the Wrath of God, even though Rev. 12:12 states that at least some of it is Satan's wrath. Zech. 14:7 states that "the Day of the Lord" is 1 day, but ignore the prophet and use your own interpretation.

    You have to ignore the "voice of the angel" and the "trump of God" in 1st Thess. 4 in order to turn it into a "Secret Rapture". It will not be silent and it will not be a "Secret"

    You have to ignore the rapture of the two witnesses at the 7th trumpet. You also have to say the last trumpet in the Bible is not the last trumpet. Look up "last" in a dictionary.

    You have to ignore the "mystery" of Rev. 10:7.

    You have to say the tribulation saints are Jews.

    You have to say Matthew Chapter 24 is written to the Jews when Christ was clearly talking to his disciples, who he already knew would lead his Church. In John 13:33 Christ called his disciples "little children" , not "Jews".

    Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you

    Your 7 year tribulation comes from a perversion of Daniel 9:27. Christ's ministry was 1/2 week long. Daniel's 70th week was after Daniel's 69th week. The 70th week ended when Steven was stoned to death. The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. The angel never mentioned a Gap of 2,000 years. The Church is not a parenthesis in God's plan. The Church is the plan. How does the antichrist appear in Daniel 9:27 without an antecedent?

    Hopefully, the above will be considered rational Biblical arguments.

    There is a reason the pretrib rapture is not accepted in nation's like Pakistan. In those nations our Brothers and Sisters are now being tortured and killed for their faith. However, American Christians are being told we will be raptured before the persecution comes to America.

    It is a lie from the enemy
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    United States
    Word of Faith

    They are "christians" because they trust it Jesus. Will they be born again? I am not sure on that question. The disciples were born again when Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit." This was BEFORE the day of Pentecost. So perhaps I have been thinking wrong about this; perhaps people can and WILL be born again during the 70th week. Can anyone be filled with the spirit as they were on the day of Pentecost after the rapture? Time will tell.

    BABerean2, since you will be left behind, you can tell us all about your experience once you arrive in heaven, after you have lost your head.

    By the way, the pretrib rapture is NOT A SECRET. Whoever has said this is mistaken. There will be a SHOUT, the sound of a trumpet, and untold MILLIONS will disappear instantly. How then could this be a "secret rapture?" It will certainly come SUDDENLY and without warning, but it will be NOISY! However, at the pretrib rapture NO ONE will see Jesus except those caught up - for He will remain hidden in the glory cloud. Every eye WILL see Him when He comes on the white horse 7 plus years later.

    I do not base my faith on any vision from ANYONE. True faith can ONLY come from the written word of God. If you would throw away your books and study the bible, perhaps you would change and not be left behind. You will be left behind because of YOU. You will have no one else to blame but yourself.

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