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If that choice to disobey was in Eden, this restoration process is taking a heck of a long time. What's the delay, I wonder?To simplify what I'm saying - God has given His creation life and has allowed His creation to freely live and make choices, even the choice to disobey Him. His creation has chosen to disobey and as a result sin and death entered in, now God has taken it upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation so that His creation can have life without sin and death.
The lives were living now are a part of that restoration process that's leading to a new creation where the old way which was caused by disobedient created beings is passing away.
If that choice to disobey was in Eden, this restoration process is taking a heck of a long time. What's the delay, I wonder?
Right. Do I understand that God "taking upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation" is his intervention through the Incarnation? And that, although the choice to disobey is still possible, there is still the possibility of forgiveness through Christ, and that God has been waiting for everyone to accept that, at which point sin and death would be removed? And that, obviously, has not happened, and therefore "the end is nearing as a result"? Why is the end nearing as a result, and what is that end? And what would have been the end if we had all sought forgiveness so that sin and death were removed?Good question. I think the answer is that the choice to disobey is still possible and forgiveness for disobedience and the penalty of death is only through Christ, but many have not come to Christ and some are falling away, the end is nearing as a result.
Right. Do I understand that God "taking upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation" is his intervention through the Incarnation?
And that, although the choice to disobey is still possible, there is still the possibility of forgiveness through Christ, and that God has been waiting for everyone to accept that, at which point sin and death would be removed?
And that, obviously, has not happened, and therefore "the end is nearing as a result"? Why is the end nearing as a result, and what is that end? And what would have been the end if we had all sought forgiveness so that sin and death were removed?
If that choice to disobey was in Eden, this restoration process is taking a heck of a long time. What's the delay, I wonder?
This seems a little muddled to me. Can I try again? What does this mean:Correct and now Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God until all Christ's enemies are put at His feet, including death.
Sin and death will be removed whether you accept Christ or not, what specifically happens to someone who doesn't accept Christ is unknown, we do know it will be unpleasant for them, but whether they're tormented forever or destroyed into nonexistence, I don't know. I do know my old self and it's sinful desires is being destroyed as I look to Christ for guidance and renewal of my mind heart and soul.
For each individual, the end is physical death and this is when eternal life is fully realized for those in Christ. For creation as a whole, the end could be at any time, but only God the Father knows when it will happen and when it does happen, a new imperishable creation will be ushered in to replace the old that's passing away.
Good question. I think the answer is that the choice to disobey is still possible and forgiveness for disobedience and the penalty of death is only through Christ, but many have not come to Christ and some are falling away, the end is nearing as a result.
What does that mean? Do you mean the business in Eden was not at least some thousands of years ago by the Ussher count?What delay? Perhaps our perspective of "time" is flawed.
What does that mean? Do you mean the business in Eden was not at least some thousands of years ago by the Ussher count?
Well, that's all very true. Not very helpful, but very true.Nope, just that whether or not this is a "long" time is a matter of perspective. Is a mile a "long" distance? Is an inch a "long" distance? If you're a bacterium, an inch is a long distance.
This seems a little muddled to me. Can I try again? What does this mean:
You say God has decided to remove sin and death from creation by intervening through the Incarnation. But then you say this hasn't worked out because it is still possible to disobey. But that ability to disobey is inherent in this creation (because of free will) so obviously the possibility still exists, so God's plan is not coherent.You can certainly try to understand and I'm glad you are trying
What specifically doesn't make sense to you?
You say God has decided to remove sin and death from creation by intervening through the Incarnation.
But then you say this hasn't worked out because it is still possible to disobey.
But that ability to disobey is inherent in this creation (because of free will) so obviously the possibility still exists, so God's plan is not coherent.
Then you say many have not come to Christ, indeed many have fallen away, so the end is nearing. Why does this mean the end is nearing, and how do you match that with your statement that no-one knows when the end will come?
Fine. I follow all of that.When Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, He made a new way and continues to help us to come to God.
I didn't say it hasn't worked out, I did say that it's still in progress from a personal individual perspective. From God's perspective, everything is under control and life is flourishing as originally intended, despite man's disobedience and rejection of God's life giving power.
From a personal individual perspective, God's plan can seem very incoherent. But is this because the plan is actually incoherent or because we lack understanding and refuse to honestly ask Him?
Honestly, people have been saying the end is near for a very long time. At this point I have no idea if it's actually near, I just trust what God's word says in regards to the current times and He tells us to always be awake and ready, so that's what I try to do
So in this new world we won´t have this great "freedom to disobey" that was so important to your God?To simplify what I'm saying - God has given His creation life and has allowed His creation to freely live and make choices, even the choice to disobey Him. His creation has chosen to disobey and as a result sin and death entered in, now God has taken it upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation so that His creation can have life without sin and death.
The lives were living now are a part of that restoration process that's leading to a new creation where the old way which was caused by disobedient created beings is passing away.
"More special"? It adds an unparsimonous assumption, and it doesn´t explain anything better than the parsimonous version does. Instead, it raises a lot of unanswered questions.If God exists and functions, then the distinction of "physical" vs "spiritual" is a moot, since God would be the ultimate reality with everything else being a simulacrum.
Likewise, in such reality the concept of "free will" would likewise be a moot, since there is no free will in simulated "created and directed" reality. Free will, or perhaps the illusion of it, lies in some degree of uncertainty in which one would have a choice to make in light of some uncertainty. When everything is certain and known in a reality that's created (simulated) by the ultimate being - there is no uncertainty... everything is simply a complex computer game.
I'm not sure why such version would seem more special than that of an accidental Universe that resulted in complexity that functions consciously.
The question what I´d rather be is completely irrelevant., to begin with.Would you rather be a complex accident, or a game piece?
So in this new world we won´t have this great "freedom to disobey" that was so important to your God?
A couple of days ago I posted a thread in which I used the premise that the afterlife is non-physical [http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-problem-of-a-missing-motive.7942518/].
Much to my surprise a lot of Christians there told me that this premise doesn´t accurately represent their Christian view, and that the afterlife is actually physical. They were disappointed that that thread wasn´t about their theology.
So - for fairness´ sake and in order to avoid permanent derailments of the other thread: this thread is for them (or you, if you are one of them). You can elaborate here on the physical afterlife to your hearts´ desire. Feel free to tell us how it works, what it´s like, how it´s similar to this physical life, how it´s different, what causes those differences, how problem in this physical life aren´t problems in heaven etc.etc.
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