The Nicene Creed - Exploring different traditions' understanding

[Halbhh]

Actually, one of those minor differences (known as the Filioque*) was a big part of what caused the "Great Schism" in 1054 when the church divided into RCC and EOC, but I do agree that as a whole, the Creed provides a lot of easily accessible common ground (for the simple reason that, in reality, there is a lot of common ground between all the Christian churches/denominations ).

We hold about 90% of the faith in perfect unity with one another (save perhaps for our differences in terminology and what we actually mean by some of the words we use), but we only focus on that 90% of the faith about 10% of the time. Conversely, while there are real differences in about 10% of what we believe about the faith, we spend 90% of our time discussing those differences (which is not surprising, of course, but perhaps seeking a little more balance wouldn't be a bad idea for all of us ).

If you don't mind me asking @Halbhh, which church/denomination are you a part of (I think it's great that your church chooses to recite the Creed as part of your services occasionally ).

Yours and His,
David

*The EOC
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father.....

*The Filiogue of the West/RCC and Protestants
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
​

I see the 'Filioque' as a good example of just how people can easily find differences in their understanding about all sorts of things not clearly nailed down, and which often we can't even know, as we cannot encompass God, of course. We can't surround God and specify Him, of course. People easily get into arguments though!

This church we are at I did not grow up in, and the first time I was ever in a 'Lutheran' church was when we walked in the door nearly 7 years ago, and it was pleasant enough. Later, since my wife really liked it, and that's quite important, considering her situation, I was content that there are no obvious really serious errors. They don't even really follow 'grace alone' part to the level there is zero encouragement towards doing as Christ said, but generally instead a lot of preaching and encouragement to do what He said(!). Most here seem to do as He commanded largely, or often, so 'grace alone' is largely not the thing. Rather it's no different than any other church.

I don't say that from inexperience. I've been in services at least 10 times (usually a lot more) in let's see....Church of Christ, Methodist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Catholic, and have been in one or two services in several more denominations.

There is no difference that matters in any of them; notice I am not trying to claim the keepers of libraries full of doctrines would agree, but instead the actual people, their actual beliefs, and the actual sermons -- all pretty much alike, with only superficial difference.

I don't say that lightly. I really paid a lot of attention to sermons and to people.

Of course there are occasional seeming errors in sermons, in each, in my experience. I'm aged enough (by learning from experience) though to know that is sometimes a 'Tower of Babel' problem, such as when we say A and presume B, but someone thinks we meant B is wrong even though we didn't often, and I call that a variety of 'Tower of Babel'.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for suggesting I make this thread and for your reply.
So in both those answers, the Orthodox position seems similar to that of my church. We say it each time, and use it for baptism, and the idea that it is the sufficient statement of the Christian faith stresses its importance in our view. Interesting about the censing...I would be interested to hear if you learn the answer. I wonder if it has to do with incense being the prayers of the saints, and recitation of the Creed connecting the present to past Church? (Speculating, as I am not Orthodox, nor, as you know, particularly familiar with the Orthodox tradition)

Well, I have an answer, although I actually still want to ask a bit more about specific connection to the Creed. I know the end of the "fanning/shaking" of the Aer is important, but there a bit more to learn there.

I fear this may be tmi, but I can't really distill it properly, so with the author's permission, I'm going to share it here.


Begin paste ---

You are referring to what is called the Aer. Here's a bit of info you may find useful. The Aer (pronounced ah-EER) is a cloth that is used as a covering for the Paten and Chalice, but it is also much more than that. The Aer has two ribbons sewn onto it. During the Great Entrance, the priest or deacon ties the ribbons around his neck so that the Aer looks like a shoulder-blade length cape, worn while he transfers the Paten and Chalice from the Prothesis (Oblation) Table to the Altar. It is also shaken or fanned (hence its name) over the Paten and Chalice during the reciting of the Creed. This shaking represents the earthquake that occurred at the Crucifixion.
Origins
It appears that the Aer and the Epitaphion (the cloth depicting Jesus' dead body that is used on Good Friday) have a common origin. The Aer began to be
used in Jerusalem at about the time of St. Savas, who died in the year 532. Simeon of Thessalonica wrote in no uncertain terms that the Aer, just like the Epitaphion, represents the naked and dead body of Jesus as it was placed in the tomb, and that is why the icon of the placing of Christ's body in the tomb is so often depicted on the Aer. Originally they showed a lamb, up until the time of the Quinisect Council in Trullo in the year 692. The Rev. Nicholas M. Elias, in his book The Divine Liturgy Explained, says: “The Veils or Cloth-covers...are three; two of them are smaller which are used to cover the Paten and the Chalice, the third to cover both. These three veils remind us of the clothes and shrouds which were used for Christ's burial.” Later when he describes the Great Entrance, he writes: “After all these, he [the Priest] goes to the Credence [Prothesis or Oblation Table]. He there puts on his shoulders the Air (sic), which represents the cloth in which the Body of Christ was wrapped.”---from an article I [Emanuel Creekus] wrote several years ago about the Shroud of Turin

 

[~Anastasia~]

Because you are exploring different Traditions, I also received a reply from a Ukrainian Eastern Catholic friend, which I can't really verify as the only Eastern Catholic priest I know isn't online.

In his tradition, the large veil is called the "Vozduch" . He said that the waving of it over the gifts symbolizes the descent of the Holy Spirit, and the veil before the gifts represents the Mystery.

Apparently they do the same thing at the same point in the Liturgy as we do. But I can't verify the understanding. Now I'll have to ask my priest friend next time I see him.

 

[St_Worm2]

They don't even really follow 'grace alone' part to the level there is zero encouragement towards doing as Christ said, but generally instead a lot of preaching and encouragement to do what He said(!). Most here seem to do as He commanded largely, or often, so 'grace alone' is largely not the thing. Rather it's no different than any other church.

Hi again Halbhh, while I either agree with and/or understand most of what your wrote in your last post, if you don't mind, please tell me more about the Reformed doctrine of, "grace alone", how you define it/what it means to you .. Ephesians 2:8-10.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Halbhh]

Hi again Halbhh, while I either agree with and/or understand most of what your wrote in your last post, if you don't mind, please tell me more about the Reformed doctrine, "grace alone", and what you believe it means .. Ephesians 2:8-10.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Wonderfully those verses are especially clear in 8 and 9, and then 10 is beautifully stated, but to know more about what verse 10 means in actual practice, what it looks like I like to go the the Gospel of John and read chapter 15 again about the True Vine, and that's powerful and needed by all of us, to take in, and that's my best understanding. It is through Him we are able to produce good fruit, and as He says we must, or else. And He even gives us powerful thing to do specifically in verse 7 I notice, in that we are to read and dwell in His words, specifically. This is a key aid to do as He says to do in this wonderful passage, to do the work, good work, of keeping His commandments, and bearing fruit. There is no "alone" for grace, as I'm guessing you already agree, except that it's the only way we are justified, as in verses 8 and 9 of Ephesians 2, but works are not only our evidence of actual faith, but totally required, we see in John 15, else the fruitless branch is gathered and burned.

 

[dzheremi]

1.My first question before even reaching the words of the Nicene Creed itself, is, in your tradition, what significance does the Creed have, and how important is it? Is it used regularly in your worship services?

The Creed is recited several times in every liturgy, yes. It is very, very important. I'm not sure what else I can say, really. It might be interesting to know that the most popular tradition concerning the Creed in the Coptic Orthodox Church is that it was written by St. Athanasius the Apostolic himself, who was present at the council of Nicaea while still a deacon as an aide to HH Pope St. Alexander of Alexandria. So there's a very personal connection to it for the Coptic people and Church, because our future Pope wrote it.

2. There are differences in the use of "I" or "we" between the different traditions. How important is the use of the singular versus plural pronoun, and why has your tradition chosen this particular one for use?

When I asked about this (because I converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, which uses the other form), my priest said that it's in the plural because it's the faith of the entire Church, and we all pray it together. I don't know that this is a real sticking point for anyone, though. The singular form is fine too, as it's the same faith that is proclaimed either way.

Also, I'm sorry, but the form that you have put up for the Coptic Orthodox Church is not quite correct. Or at least I've never seen it or prayed in English beginning with "In truth", though I've heard it that way in Arabic ("Bilhaqiqati nomen..."), and I think it begins that way in Coptic ("Khen oumethmi tennakhti..."), which is probably why it begins that way in Arabic, and I've never seen that bit that says "co-worship" and "co-glorify". Not sure where that's coming from. Anyway, the form that we actually use can be found below, from the website of Diocese of Los Angeles, Southern California, and Hawaii:

We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.


We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.


Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.


And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.

 

[“Paisios”]

Well, not many people realize it, but no 2 human beings totally agree in all details about things they even say they agree on (superficially), it seems. I know it sounds like hyperbole, and it's a trivial everyday knowledge that people understand (without depth) that some other person thinks "just like me" about something. But they don't, actually, if they discuss it enough, though they are willing to say they agree anyway, being pragmatic. And that's fine. It's just as it should be. One can learn how profoundly unique each person's views are often after an hour or 2 to sometimes a dozen hours of in depth conversation with someone so that they feel really comfortable to tell you what they really think (some people get there sooner, and some slower). That's not the usual social conversation. It helps a lot that they can sense that I've got nothing whatsoever against their being different than me. I was not able to find another human being on Earth so far that thinks precisely the identical (in all details) way that another human being does about anything, even, in my experience of about 20 to 40 instances of people getting to the point where they say "I've never told anyone that before", where I know they are really saying their true thoughts.

So.....it's wrong to imagine that people understand things the same way past a narrow detail.

They are mostly willing though to say they agree anyway.

It's good and right to agree to agree....to say I see something the same way you do, knowing what actually is real is that I see it largely or at least in some key way a lot like you.

So, it definitely would be a real error me, having this knowledge, to argue too much and stir up the inevitable ability of each, every and all humans to debate for the sake of debating, and get their egos involved, which by the way is the only real explanation for all the splits.

It wasn't that everyone really believed those differences mattered, but instead that they got offended. That's where any split comes from.

Otherwise, we just live in peace without bothering to get into argument. What I mean is that I know for sure my brother can stumble and sin, in part because I have found out that I can.....so, therefore, at this point, I'm all about forgive and forgive, and put love first, and then I noticed the difference becomes unimportant! So even when I finally found a person here in my local church that disagreed on one of my favorite pet topics....they ended up being one of my most beloved of fellows in Christ. I must have prayed the Lord's Prayer that day!

I really like a lot of the sentiments expressed here...especially "forgive and forgive, and put love first". And you are right that, because we are all individuals, uniquely created, with individual experiences, cultural experiences and thought patterns, our understanding of the meaning of the Creed will necessarily not be identical to that of our brothers and sisters, even within our own communion. But I still think it's worth exploring.

 

[“Paisios”]

The Creed is recited several times in every liturgy, yes. It is very, very important. I'm not sure what else I can say, really. It might be interesting to know that the most popular tradition concerning the Creed in the Coptic Orthodox Church is that it was written by St. Athanasius the Apostolic himself, who was present at the council of Nicaea while still a deacon as an aide to HH Pope St. Alexander of Alexandria. So there's a very personal connection to it for the Coptic people and Church, because our future Pope wrote it.



When I asked about this (because I converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, which uses the other form), my priest said that it's in the plural because it's the faith of the entire Church, and we all pray it together. I don't know that this is a real sticking point for anyone, though. The singular form is fine too, as it's the same faith that is proclaimed either way.

Also, I'm sorry, but the form that you have put up for the Coptic Orthodox Church is not quite correct. Or at least I've never seen it or prayed in English beginning with "In truth", though I've heard it that way in Arabic ("Bilhaqiqati nomen..."), and I think it begins that way in Coptic ("Khen oumethmi tennakhti..."), which is probably why it begins that way in Arabic, and I've never seen that bit that says "co-worship" and "co-glorify". Not sure where that's coming from. Anyway, the form that we actually use can be found below, from the website of Diocese of Los Angeles, Southern California, and Hawaii:

We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.


We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.


Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.


And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.

Thank you for replying. I have edited my original post to reflect the Creed from your link. I much prefer to quote from an official site than from Wikipedia, so I thank you for the correction.

Fascinating piece of history. And The reason for "we" makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[prodromos]

I'm a little curious as to why a number of versions have a rather redundant, "God from God", when just a bit further we read, "true God from true God".

Why is this so?

 

[“Paisios”]

I'm a little curious as to why a number of versions have a rather redundant, "God from God", when just a bit further we read, "true God from true God".

Why is this so?

I am curious about this also...

 

[mark46]

Amen

We are what we pray

 

[mark46]

I'm a little curious as to why a number of versions have a rather redundant, "God from God", when just a bit further we read, "true God from true God".

Why is this so?

Part of the issue might be translation.

In any case, there was the need to emphasize that Jesus and God were one. This was opposed to the heretics who held that Jesus was not equal to God.

 

[prodromos]

Part of the issue might be translation.

It isn't in the Greek text of the Nicene Canons, so it isn't a translation issue.

In any case, there was the need to emphasize that Jesus and God were one. This was opposed to the heretics who held that Jesus was not equal to God.

Except that it is completely made redundant by "True God of true God". If anything it weakens the creed because it introduces the term "God" without the qualifier of "true".

 

[mark46]

curious monk: What Does the Nicene Creed Actually Mean? Part One

 

[hedrick]

I'm a little curious as to why a number of versions have a rather redundant, "God from God", when just a bit further we read, "true God from true God".

Why is this so?

It was in the 325 version, but not the 381 version. Generally the text of the 381 version is used, by possibly one phrase from the original crept in.

 

[~Anastasia~]

A minor point perhaps, but I've been meaning to update. I also have heard now from Orthodox who also associate the shaking of the Aer during the recitation of the Creed with the action of the Holy Spirit (which has been described as a rushing wind).

 

[hedrick]

This thread is a result of a question I asked on another thread for recommendations on readings or websites that would compare and contrast different Christian traditions' ideas and perceptions about the Nicene Creed. In some responses with @~Anastasia~, it seemed that a new thread might be helpful.

The PCUSA, like other mainline churches, uses the Nicene Creed in the service occasionally. However we use other credal statements as well. I've observed a Protestant tendency to use the Apostles' Creed more often, but because the PCUSA is a confessional church, we often draw from other official confessions.

Because of this overall context, we view it as one of many historic statements of the Christian faith, and not a legally binding document. When looked at in detail, that means we'd look at its purpose and how it was understood at the councils that issued it. Like many in the West, the filioque is simply part of the Creed as we inherited it from our tradition. I've never heard our people specifically argue for it. Given our point of view, it would actually make sense to omit it. The text in the official Worship Book uses "we believe."

 

[prodromos]

It was in the 325 version, but not the 381 version. Generally the text of the 381 version is used, by possibly one phrase from the original crept in.

Thank you. I see that is indeed the case.

 

[mark46]

Anglicans are allowed to (and often do) omit the filoque.

The PCUSA, like other mainline churches, uses the Nicene Creed in the service occasionally. However we use other credal statements as well. I've observed a Protestant tendency to use the Apostles' Creed more often, but because the PCUSA is a confessional church, we often draw from other official confessions.

Because of this overall context, we view it as one of many historic statements of the Christian faith, and not a legally binding document. When looked at in detail, that means we'd look at its purpose and how it was understood at the councils that issued it. Like many in the West, the filioque is simply part of the Creed as we inherited it from our tradition. I've never heard our people specifically argue for it. Given our point of view, it would actually make sense to omit it. The text in the official Worship Book uses "we believe."

 

[Targaryen]

This thread is a result of a question I asked on another thread for recommendations on readings or websites that would compare and contrast different Christian traditions' ideas and perceptions about the Nicene Creed. In some responses with @~Anastasia~, it seemed that a new thread might be helpful.





What I would like to see is a line by line exploration of the Nicene Creed, with posts by those from the various Christian traditions - Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant (of all varieties), and Roman Catholic - exploring and illuminating their traditions' views on what the statements in the Creed mean to them. I hope in this way to better understand the different (please note these are in alphabetical order to not favor one over the other, and other traditions are welcome if I have overlooked you) faiths within Christianity, and to better see where are our commonalities, and where are our differences.

I understand that this could become heated, and raise some disagreement, so I would ask that everyone try to remain calm, see this as an informational thread rather than a debate, and to remain patient and civil in the face of opposing viewpoints.

The Nicene Creed

Anglican (from Anglicans Online | The Nicene Creed)

WE BELIEVE in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

Eastern Orthodox (from the Greek Orthodox Church The Nicene Creed - Personal and Devotional Prayers - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America)

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.

Amen.

Oriental Orthodox Church (from the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles The Creed of Faith)

We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.


(An example of) Protestant Churches (from Protestant Reformed Churches of America Nicene Creed)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life; who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Amen

Roman Catholic Church (from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops What We Believe)

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

1.My first question before even reaching the words of the Nicene Creed itself, is, in your tradition, what significance does the Creed have, and how important is it? Is it used regularly in your worship services?

2. There are differences in the use of "I" or "we" between the different traditions. How important is the use of the singular versus plural pronoun, and why has your tradition chosen this particular one for use?

(Thank you in advance for reading and contributing to this thread, which I hope will provide some clarity for me into the meaning of the Creed. I apologize for the length of the post, but aimed for not offending any faith group by trying to include the different forms in which the Nicene Creed is presented.)

1) The Nicene Creed is highly significant, along with the Apostle's Creed and to a lesser extent the Athanasius' Creed. Our 39 Atricles of Religion state it as much. However, in our tradition, it's almost always said at the Eucharist and in more parishes then not,the Eucharist is celebrated weekly.

2) While I cannot fully speak for the whole Anglican tradition, IMO I think we choose to use WE cause in our tradition, we use the Apostle's Creed at Baptism as a statement of personal faith, therefore in this case the "we" pronoun would mean we as the Church Universal believe in the following.