the name of Mohammad in the Old testament

[Muslim-UK]

How many times must God tell you ?

Just show me in Gospel of Mark please, then we can move onto Matthew, Luke and hit the elusive jackpot in John.

 

[4x4toy]

Just show me in Gospel of Mark please, then we can move onto Matthew, Luke and hit the elusive jackpot in John.

I can show you just about every page in the Word of God fits together pointing to Jesus, where's Muhammed except for some obscure square peg being forced into a round hole ?

 

[Lukaris]

Just show me in Gospel of Mark please, then we can move onto Matthew, Luke and hit the elusive jackpot in John.

Despite differences between Christians on certain matters of faith, a common orthodoxy that which is found in creeds like the Nicene & Apostles' creeds is from our 4 Gospels. We have always believed these that center on the Trinity & that Jesus Christ is our Lord & savior. THere is scholarship that will support or try to disprove our faith.

For you the same standard should apply to your Koran. Maybe it is the incorruptible preaching of your original preacher. Christians believe otherwise; we would be denying God to do anything else.

We should also realiZe non Christians may not understand the Gospel. st Paul in Romans 2 preaches about a moral compass in us all so non Christians can still live morally right.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I can show you just about every page in the Word of God fits together pointing to Jesus, where's Muhammed except for some obscure square peg being forced into a round hole ?

So I'm assuming being born again to obtain salvation was not taught in the Gospel of Mark. It was love and believe in One GOD, worship Him, keep the commandments and do good works.

When this message reached the Pagans they made it clear, they wouldn't be interested in keeping laws, restricting what they could eat, drink and wanted a golden lottery ticket instead. We know the idea of an innocent person dying for the sins of all was put forward and readily accepted. I suppose you can't blame them, especially considering there wasn't a single agreed upon NT going around. Different groups were promoting their own version of Jesus pbuh and the Greek Philosophers won the day.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Despite differences between Christians on certain matters of faith, a common orthodoxy that which is found in creeds like the Nicene & Apostles' creeds is from our 4 Gospels. We have always believed these that center on the Trinity & that Jesus Christ is our Lord & savior. THere is scholarship that will support or try to disprove our faith.

There shouldn't be differences on Doctrine. As above in my response to 4x4 the most powerful people of the time, the Romans decided what Christianity should be and the rest is 2000 years of turbulent History.

For you the same standard should apply to your Koran. Maybe it is the incorruptible preaching of your original preacher. Christians believe otherwise; we would be denying God to do anything else.

Muslims are happy for the Qur'an to be examined and would ask those in doubt to bring their evidences.

We should also realiZe non Christians may not understand the Gospel. st Paul in Romans 2 preaches about a moral compass in us all so non Christians can still live morally right.

GOD is not the author of confusion.

 

[4x4toy]

So I'm assuming being born again to obtain salvation was not taught in the Gospel of Mark. It was love and believe in One GOD, worship Him, keep the commandments and do good works.

When this message reached the Pagans they made it clear, they wouldn't be interested in keeping laws, restricting what they could eat, drink and wanted a golden lottery ticket instead. We know the idea of an innocent person dying for the sins of all was put forward and readily accepted. I suppose you can't blame them, especially considering there wasn't a single agreed upon NT going around. Different groups were promoting their own version of Jesus pbuh and the Greek Philosophers won the day.

Titus 3:5 1 Peter 1:2-3 .. God is one , Father, Son, Holy Spirit, same God .. We are born of water and Spirit baptized in Jesus name .. A simple act of faith after we have confessed Jesus as Lord to be born again of God the Holy Spirit where we become regenerated in God .. How is it Islam says you become saved from death and hell ? And please explain al taqiyya I asked you in post #105

 

[4x4toy]

Proverbs 30:20 .. How can something that feels so right be so wrong ? Gods righteousness burns white hot and you can only access it with the Power of God through Jesus ..

 

[Lukaris]

No differences of doctrine in Islam? Look I have nothing do with this faith but to a person looking on the outside, the divide between SUnni & Shia seems pretty serious. We have provided examples of God telling us that the Father, Son, & HOly Spirit are 3 Persons He declares so. TO those who do not understand, this is nothing to
Do with virtues or intellect, follow the conscience God you until you might understand.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Titus 3:5 1 Peter 1:2-3 .. God is one , Father, Son, Holy Spirit, same God .. We are born of water and Spirit baptized in Jesus name .. A simple act of faith after we have confessed Jesus as Lord to be born again of God the Holy Spirit where we become regenerated in God .. How is it Islam says you become saved from death and hell ? And please explain al taqiyya I asked you in post #105

The simple fact as established in the Gospel of Mark is different authors had very different understanding of how to be saved. There's an evolution of the message Jesus pbuh brought, it is repackaged several times through the decades, in a uncontrolled manner before the central Governing force of the time stepped in, and used these various writings to establish an official State Religion.

You mention Titus which is attributed to Paul. Paul was preaching his Gospel mainly to Pagans who had no interest in keeping Laws and Commandments.

You also mention 1 Peter, which appears to be from the hand of the disciple Peter and appears to follow the doctrine of Paul. There are internal issues which point to not being written by Peter.

<<<<<<<< Anyway never mind how outsiders see the NT >>>>>>>>

How are Muslims saved? As Jesus pbuh said, worship GOD, keep the Commandments and do good works. Accept all previous revelations Torat, Zabur and Injeel and ALL the previous Messengers and Prophets, peace be upon them all.

al taqiyya:

The word Taqiyya gets thrown around a fair bit by Athesits, Hindus and Christians at Muslims, let's have a look and see what the fuss is all about:

A well known anti Islam site gives 2 references from the Qur'an: 3:28 & 16:106

3:28
Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah , except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

Commentary of Ibn Kathir: Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

(And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way) meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,

(O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them)

(And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.) 60:1 Allah said,

(O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves) 4:144 and

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.) 5:51

Can Christians And Jews Be Friends With Muslims?

Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins,

(And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption.) 8:73

Fitna = civil strife and infighting

Allah said next,

(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'' Allah said,

(And Allah warns you against Himself.) meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends,

(And to Allah is the final return) meaning, the return is to Him and He will reward or punish each person according to their deeds.

(29. Say: "Whether you hide what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it, and He knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. And Allah is able to do all things.'') (30. On the Day when every person will be confronted with the good he has done, and all the evil he has done, he will wish that there were a great distance between him and his evil. And Allah warns you against Himself and Allah is full of kindness with the servants.)


16:106
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

Ibn Sa’d in his book, "al-Tabaqat al-Kubra,”narrates on the authority of Ibn Sirin that:

The Prophet (S) saw `Ammar Ibn Yasir (ra) crying, so he (S) wiped off his (ra) tears, and said: "The nonbelievers arrested you and immersed you in water until you said such and such (i.e., bad-mouthing the Prophet (S) and praising the pagan gods to escape persecution); if they come back, then say it again."


Narrated in Sahih Muslim Chapter 1077 v4, p1373, Tradition #6303:

Humaid b. ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of ‘Uqba b. Abu Mu’ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

The (Sunni) commentator of this volume of Sahih Muslim, Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, provides the following commentary:

Telling of a lie is a grave sin but a Muslim is permitted to tell a lie in some exceptional cases, and this permission is given especially on three occasions: in case of battle for bringing reconciliation amongst the hostile Muslims and for bringing reconciliation between the husband and the wife. On the analogy (Qiyas) of these three cases, the scholars of Hadith have pointed out some other exemptions:

For saving the life and honour of innocent person from the high handedness of tyrants and oppressors if one finds no other way to save them.

Harvard Law School, one of the most prestigious institutions of its kind in the world, has posted a verse of the Noble Qur'an at the entrance of its faculty library, describing the verse as one of the greatest expressions of justice in history.

Verse 135 of Surah Al Nisa (The Women) has been posted at a wall facing the faculty's main entrance, dedicated to the best phrases articulating justice:

"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do."

 

[Muslim-UK]

No differences of doctrine in Islam? Look I have nothing do with this faith but to a person looking on the outside, the divide between SUnni & Shia seems pretty serious. We have provided examples of God telling us that the Father, Son, & HOly Spirit are 3 Persons He declares so. TO those who do not understand, this is nothing to
Do with virtues or intellect, follow the conscience God you until you might understand.

Sunni Shia divide has nothing to do with Doctrine, only who should have been the Khalifa after the death of the Prophet pbuh.

 

[4x4toy]

If your god is deceptive and Muslims are sanctioned to lie by their god , how could you trust your god and how do I know you're not lying ?

 

[lben]

well don't you think that we share the same God jews Christians and Muslims??

No.

The God of Jews and Christians is a loving God, a righteous God, a holy God, a forgiving God.

The God we worship is the creator of the universe. He is alive and well and very active in our lives. He is a triune God (Father, Son - Jesus -, and the Holy Spirit). Jesus is the son of God and no one comes unto the father except through him. No one.

 

[KWCrazy]

No.
The God of Jews and Christians is a loving God, a righteous God, a holy God, a forgiving God.

Exactly. These attributes are not applicable to the god of terrorism, oppression, slavery and murder. Jesus was the son of God. Mohammed was a highwayman and thug. Jesus said "Love your neighbor." Mohammed said "Slay the unbeliever wherever you find him."

 

[brinny]

OP: I believe that you are convinced of this. I'm certainly not.

I agree.

 

[Arthra]

An example of the love of God from the Qur'an:

Say, 'If ye would love God then follow me, and God will love you and forgive you your sins, for God is forgiving and merciful.'

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3:31 - Imran's Family)

Examples of the principle of God's love and mercy in the letters of Ali ibn abi Talib, Cousin of the Prophet and fourth Caliph:

"Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you. Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human beings are inclined to, they commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their rescue and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah to show mercy and forgiveness to you."

~ Ali b. Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh


"You ( Mu'awiya) have challenged me to a battle. I accept your challenge. But I have a proposal to make. Why have a war involving murder and bloodshed of thousands of ignorant people? Why be a scourge to mankind? Let us have mercy on them, whether they are sincere and Allah-fearing Muslims, or ignorant, unenlightened and greedy mercenaries misguided and fooled by you. Let there be peace and tranquillity for all the creatures of Allah."

~ Ali b. Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh

 

[Mediaeval]

An example of the love of God from the Qur'an:

Say, 'If ye would love God then follow me, and God will love you and forgive you your sins, for God is forgiving and merciful.'

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3:31 - Imran's Family)

Surah 3:31 is another good illustration of how the Quranic concept of God’s love is inferior to the Biblical concept of God’s love. According to this ayah, God’s love is conditional. By contrast, God’s love according to the Bible is unconditional. Again, according to the Quran—the very next ayah—Surah 3:32, God’s love is limited to Muslims, because “Allah does not love the disbelievers.” By contrast, according to the Bible, God loves all mankind unconditionally.

So, in sum, the Quran teaches God’s love is limited and conditional, whereas the Bible teaches that God’s love is unlimited and unconditional. No wonder that the Evangel/Injil of a selfless, self-sacrificing God is so foreign to the Quran.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Surah 3:31 is another good illustration of how the Quranic concept of God’s love is inferior to the Biblical concept of God’s love. According to this ayah, God’s love is conditional. By contrast, God’s love according to the Bible is unconditional. Again, according to the Quran—the very next ayah—Surah 3:32, God’s love is limited to Muslims, because “Allah does not love the disbelievers.” By contrast, according to the Bible, God loves all mankind unconditionally.

If the NT God loves us unconditionally, then why do Christians say, you have to accept the cross sacrifice to be saved?

So, in sum, the Quran teaches God’s love is limited and conditional, whereas the Bible teaches that God’s love is unlimited and unconditional. No wonder that the Evangel/Injil of a selfless, self-sacrificing God is so foreign to the Quran.

You say the Love is unconditional, but the Bible begs to differ:

Mark 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”

Keep the Commandments to be loved.

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus pbuh taught God's Love is conditional on keeping Torah and following all the Commandments. So what are the Laws concerning non believers:

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

No Love for the unbelievers, No different to 3:31-32, No false hopes on the Day of Resurrection.

 

[danny ski]

No.

The God of Jews and Christians is a loving God, a righteous God, a holy God, a forgiving God.

The God we worship is the creator of the universe. He is alive and well and very active in our lives. He is a triune God (Father, Son - Jesus -, and the Holy Spirit). Jesus is the son of God and no one comes unto the father except through him. No one.

Don't be bringing Jews into this. We certainly do not share a triune god.

 

[4x4toy]

If the NT God loves us unconditionally, then why do Christians say, you have to accept the cross sacrifice to be saved?

You say the Love is unconditional, but the Bible begs to differ:

Mark 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”

Keep the Commandments to be loved.

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus pbuh taught God's Love is conditional on keeping Torah and following all the Commandments. So what are the Laws concerning non believers:

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

No Love for the unbelievers, No different to 3:31-32, No false hopes on the Day of Resurrection.

You must be Born Again through faith in Jesus , baptized, born of water and Spirit regenerated , begotten of the Spirit of God ..

 

[Mediaeval]

If the NT God loves us unconditionally, then why do Christians say, you have to accept the cross sacrifice to be saved?

You say the Love is unconditional, but the Bible begs to differ:

Mark 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”

Keep the Commandments to be loved.

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus pbuh taught God's Love is conditional on keeping Torah and following all the Commandments. So what are the Laws concerning non believers:

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

No Love for the unbelievers, No different to 3:31-32, No false hopes on the Day of Resurrection.

Still waiting for you to answer the question in post #87. I recast it here as a multiple-choice question:

Which shows more love?
A) To sacrifice yourself for someone?
Or
B) To send somebody else while you sit and watch?

None of those Bible verses showed God’s love to be conditional. Your sophomoric attempt to lecture Christians on the love of God, while you are still a stranger to it, would be humorous, if it were not so sad and lamentable. In any case, the inferior Quranic concept of God cannot be credibly imposed on the Bible. Indeed, in Mark 10, just a few verses after the ones you quoted, we learn that the Lord Jesus “loved” the young man who refused to follow Him.