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the name of Mohammad in the Old testament

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by habibii zahra, Jan 31, 2017.

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  1. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    Your criticism missed the mark since you have not understand in what sense God’s blood cleanses from sin. I offered a brief explanation earlier in the thread about the Divine self-sacrifice. I too am critical of the penal substitution theory, but in order for a criticism to be valid, the critic should refrain from caricature; otherwise the criticism again misses the mark and alienates the audience. You might find it helpful to realize that Christians make a distinction between dogma and theologoumena or theological opinions. Also, our Lord laid down His life willingly as He said in John 10.

    You seem to have misunderstood the sophomoric diagram. The point of the diagram was not that John, Jim, and Bill were “really one Person” as you said, but that they were three persons. Notice the title of the diagram. The diagram used an equivocal and slightly prejudicial term “individual” to denote each person and also equivocated on the term “nature,” overlooking the fact what may be predicated of the Divine nature differs from what may be predicated of human nature.

    Happily, I am familiar with sources and languages that scholars themselves are familiar with, so I can make my own informed opinion, and clearly the Bible has been well preserved, as “my own” scholars and archeology agree. The same gospel of God’s self-sacrificial love is taught in all ancient Biblical manuscripts, translations, and patristic quotations, not to mention all modern translations as well. Even scholars who are not “my own” like Ehrman admit as much. The God revealed in Jesus Christ is good and faithful, and thus superior to your concept of the Islamic Allah, whose inferiority you have given us opportunity to point out over and over. It’s sad that in your conception, creatures turn out to be more loving, good, and faithful than the Islamic Allah. You love a system of ideas that does not love you back enough. Also, you did not answer my multiple choice question that went back to your analogy: “Does a good and faithful mother (A) deny her children guidance or (B) provide the necessary guidance to the best of her ability?”

    As soon as I read surah 2 for the first time, one of the things that stood out most prominently was how the Quran confirmed the Bible. Muslim scholars have noticed the same thing. It is the elephant in the room of the Islamic Allah’s eternal partner, the Quran. Yet while confirming the Bible, Muhammad was ignorant of the fact that the Quran contradicted previous Divine revelation and thereby exposed him and it as fraudulent.
     
  2. Mediaeval

    Mediaeval baptizatus sum

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    True, God cannot die as to His Divine nature. But the Divine Word became flesh, thus making both self-sacrifice unto death and God’s leading us by His own example possible. Christian theologians have thought through questions and answered objections about this long ago. There is no logical contradiction involved in the Incarnation and its consequents.

    Some “scholars” are storytellers, telling themselves what they want to hear and perhaps trying to sell a few books by saying something controversial. As Søren Kierkegaard sarcastically said of those who used scholarship to shield themselves from the convicting words of the Bible, “Oh, priceless scholarship, what would we do without you?”

    Historically speaking, there are no credible, alternative narratives for what the Church has always believed about the Bible and its historical origins. More specifically, our Lord is quite human as well as Divine in Mark, right from the first chapter, particularly if you factor in the Old Testament background. I’m not sure what you were talking about in reference to John, but in the Gospel according to John, our Lord’s Deity is highlighted well before He raised Lazarus from the dead.

    What’s wrong with conservative evangelical scholarship, other than the fact that they reach conclusions you personally wish they would not reach? You understated the wealth of manuscript evidence, patristic quotations, and ancient translations of the Bible. According to my scholarly, critical Greek New Testament (which features a preface by Ehrman’s professor Bruce Metzger), John 20:28, Matthew 28:19, and John 9:38 are not disputed.
    Mark 1:1’s “Son of God” is supported by most manuscripts, at least eight church fathers from Irenaeus to Augustine, and at least six ancient translations. Of course, the teaching that Jesus is the Son of God is hardly confined in the New Testament to that one verse.
    Mark 10:21’s “take up the cross” is found in the Majority Text and some ancient authorities, and as with the teaching that Jesus is the Son of God, our Lord’s command to take up one’s cross is familiar from elsewhere in the New Testament; the concept is not in dispute.
    On Mark 16, I favor the traditional ending, which is found in most manuscripts, in at least seven ancient translations, and church fathers from at least Irenaeus to Didymus. The omission of Mark’s longer ending in some manuscripts may be due to nothing more sinister than a missing last leaf of an ancient exemplar. Even Codex B from the Vatican library, one of the main authorities for the omission, contains a blank column at the end of Mark, the only vacant column in the whole codex, as if making room for the longer ending known to the scribe to exist. John 7:53ff has an “A” rating in the critical Greek New Testament due to its strong ancient support, as it is found in most manuscripts, at least five ancient translations, and in patristic literature from Papias (circa A.D. 60-130), who heard the apostle John speak and who was bishop of Hierapolis, to Augustine. Also, the apostles and their companions may have produced more than one “official” edition of their works, so that two variant readings may both be original and equally authoritative. On 1 John 5:7, its superfluous character and appearance in only a few late manuscripts are well known. The verse thus illustrates how the witness of a majority of manuscripts from various times and locations expose later additions to the Bible. The Holy Scriptures were inspired by God, and scribes made copies in different places and at different times, without collusion. Above all, God is a faithful Father. His providence has always been at work. It was His purpose to provide us with the Holy Scriptures and He has done so competently. We can trust Him. No man can thwart His purposes. A concept of God that is less than that, as with your Islamic Allah, is an unworthy one.

    The diagram might have three gods, but it is flawed as I pointed out. Human nature admits of only one person per human being. But the one Divine nature is not so limited; there are three Persons in the one Nature. The diagram thus equivocates on the term “nature.” Equivocation can be a handy tactic in polemics, and unclear thinking is able reach many conclusions with admirable facility.

    I agree that we are all responsible for our own actions and that offering innocent victims to Baal is wrong. What’s your point? What is the analogy between sacrificing to Baal and voluntary self-sacrifice, the concept I have been discussing all along?

    If something is ”easy to understand,” does that make it true? Unipersonal pagan gods and idols are easy to understand. Are they therefore true? Are differential calculus and quantum physics false because they are hard to understand? Also, there are hints of the Trinity in the Old Testament, in the figure of the Angel of the Lord, for example, and plurality in the Godhead was not unknown to late Temple Judaism even according to modern Jewish scholarship.

    Again you did not answer my multiple-choice question, and again your mother analogy has exposed the inferiority of the Islamic Allah. He is not so good as she. Your choice of a parental analogy was an unfortunate one for a Muslim to make, all the more so since slavemaster, not father, is the highest relationship in which Allah stands to his creatures according to Islam. Moreover, the Divine Fatherhood is at the root of Christian theology, and perhaps all Christian doctrine could be derived therefrom as a logical implication.

    Surah 2:79 is too vague and narrow in scope to support such a broad conclusion as thorough corruption of the Bible. First, on the Quran generally, there is no reason to accept the book as true in the first place. A man goes into a cave, foams at the mouth, snorts like a camel, feels like committing suicide for the umpteenth time, does not know whether an angel or Satan has spoken to him, but eventually says, Believe me or else! heedless of the fact that his teachings contradict the previously-given Holy Scriptures. Such a man is no more credible than an uneducated man would be who today in 2017 went into a cave, foamed at the mouth, and came out threatening those who did not believe him.
    Secondly, as for surah 2:79 itself, the verse only says some wrote false things. Like many Quranic accounts, it is lacking in specifics. It does not say that a few Jews in ancient Nabatea managed to alter all the copies and translations and patristic quotations of all the Scriptures, both Jewish and Christian, throughout the whole world.
    Thirdly, if surah 2:79 implies that the Quran does not confirm the Bible, then the Quran contradicts itself, since the Quran repeatedly and unambiguously confirms the Bible.

    Let’s take a closer look at just surah number 2. Surah 2:87-89 teaches that a “Book from Allah confirms that which is with” the Jews and Christians, with them as a present possession. In context, that which is with the Jews and Christians is the Bible. Surah 2:91 says the same thing again: “the truth confirms that which is with” the Jews and Christians. Surah 2:97 says the Quran “confirms that which is before it,” i.e., the Quran confirms the Bible. Surah 2:101 says for a third time that the Quran “confirms that which is with” the Jews and Christians. Surah 2:106 says Allah does not abrogate or cause anything to be forgotten unless he brings a replacement for it. The verse also says Allah is competent over all things. Surah 2:136 says Muslims are to believe “in what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets.”

    So putting it all together, surah 2 clearly teaches that the Quran confirms, reconfirms, and re-reconfirms the Bible that Jews and Christians possessed in the A.D. seventh century. If the Bible was corrupt, then the Quran confirmed a corrupt book. So the Bible, according to the Quran, is true. Moreover, even if the Quran replaced the Bible, the Quran says the Bible was preserved at least until the Quran replaced it. But Bible translations today are based on manuscripts that predate the seventh century; therefore, by implication, the Bible has been preserved until today according to the Quran itself. Furthermore, Muslims are to believe in what was Divinely revealed before the Quran. This necessitates the preservation of those earlier revelations in an accessible and uncorrupt form, for no one can believe what is no longer available. Therefore the Bible where those earlier revelations are found has been preserved and not lost, and Muslims are expected to believe the Bible too. Also, Muslim scholars agree with me that the Bible has been preserved.
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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