the name of Mohammad in the Old testament

[Mediaeval]

Uh oh ..

I’ve heard of this new research, too, particularly through Jay Smith’s videos. An early mosque most definitely qualifies as a “Muslim source.” Plus, the few geographical clues given in the Quran seem to fit better with Petra than with Mecca, for whose existence in the A.D. 7th century there is no evidence.

 

[Muslim-UK]

The options I gave were the only ones necessary to illustrate my point. Option 1, the true concept of God, who loves all unconditionally and sacrificially. And Option 2, the Islamic Allah who, in comparison with the Christian concept, is a lazy slacker whose creatures show more love than he does and who, moreover, even sends people to hell because of the way they empty their bladders. Now that’s conditional!

First I have to question your reasons for including a video from David Wood in your response. Does it show desperation on your part I wonder? I would certainly question my need to include videos mocking Christianity using a video filled with half truth, and would imagine people thinking, "he's losing so having to 'scrape the bottom of the barrel'".

Your question was:
Which shows more love?
A) To sacrifice yourself for someone?
Or
B) To send somebody else while you sit and watch?

A would be your preferred choice, but it would be a 'non sequitur' as you fondly like to term matters, which hold true of a perceived contradiction, GOD stayed on His throne and sent his son, being the clear contradiction in this case.

B Was actually what happened within the Triune nature of the Christian God, thus appears unloving using your own line of questioning.

So really looking back you should have thanked me for giving you the sensible option of C, but still no matter.

You seem to have assumed that just because God commands something, therefore His love is conditional. That’s a non sequitur. God’s love is independent of and prior to our response to His commandments, as demonstrated in Mark 10 mentioned above.

I refuted this line of reasoning using your own Bible.

For the sake of any future children you may have, I hope you learn to show that kind of love before you become a parent. Anyway, since you make Divine love conditional, have you personally kept all the commandments and fulfilled all the conditions necessary to earn God’s love?

I raise my children by introducing them to a GOD that makes sense. That's the best love any parent could ever show their children. I have also explained the Christian concept and they would respond by saying, but that's 3 Gods?! The simple logic and reasoning of children, marvellous isn't it! God bless them.

The Commandments get easier the more you turn to and rely upon GOD. No one is perfect, which is why the spiritual washing we do between prayers nullifies minor sins, we repent for other sins and ask for forgiveness. When we commit a sin, the Angel goes to write it, but the Angel recording good deeds intercedes and says, 'wait, he might repent within a few mins', doing so stops the sin from being recorded. Such is the compassion that GOD shows us. He who fasts in the month of Ramadan has his sins wiped out for the past year, and the year to come. He who stays up and prays during the night of power is granted the reward equal to praying 1,000 months. He who dies with, 'there is no God but GOD' in his heart is guaranteed success. As you can see GOD makes keeping the commandments for his slaves as easy as possible.

There are 8 gates to paradise;

1.Baabus Salaah..those who were punctual in observing their prayers
2.Baabul Jihad..those who participated in jihad (excludes suicide bombers)
3.Baabus Sadaqah...those who frequently gave sadaqah (Charity)
4.Baabur Rayyaan...the ones who constantly fasted
5.Baabul Hajj...those who observe their annual pilgrimage [hajj]
6.Baabul Kadhemean al- Gaidh...this door is reserved for those who suppress their anger and pardon others
7.Baabul Iman...this door is reserved for the entry of those who by virtue of their faith are saved from reckoning and chastisement.
8.Baabuz Dhikr...those who excessively remembered Allah.

There are 7 gates to Hell. <<<May GOD protect us all from them.

This is a just GOD worthy of worship, wouldn't you say?

Or will you really cling onto to the notion that entering Heaven requires no effort, no self sacrifice, no hardship?

 

[Muslim-UK]

I’ve heard of this new research, too, particularly through Jay Smith’s videos. An early mosque most definitely qualifies as a “Muslim source.” Plus, the few geographical clues given in the Quran seem to fit better with Petra than with Mecca, for whose existence in the A.D. 7th century there is no evidence.

Mecca is mentioned in at least the 4th Century by Historian Ptolemy* under the then name of Macoraba, though his latitude was correct, his miscalculation of the Earths size threw his Longtitude out by 20% or so, something that wasn't solved until around the 17th Century, after which all maps based on his data showed Macoraba to be present day Mecca. The other thing to remember is the pre-Islamic story of the War of Elephants found in the Qur'an. It related to a Christian King of Yemen, who having built a splendid Church wanted Pilgrims to abandon the Ka'ba and come to the Church instead. When people showed little interest, he raised an army, marched to and attempted to destroy the Ka'ba. He would have felt no need had Mecca been Petra.

* (Forester, Charles,The Historical Geography of Arabia, Volume 1, Duncan and Malcolm, MDCCCXLIV, Introduction, page LX-LXII)

 

[benelchi]

Sounds like what a Jew would say to a Evangelising Christian using a 'mis'translation of the Hebrew Torah.

I doubt it. The JPS (Jewish translation of the OT in English) is almost identical to our Christian translations of the English OT.

 

[Mediaeval]

First I have to question your reasons for including a video from David Wood in your response. Does it show desperation on your part I wonder? I would certainly question my need to include videos mocking Christianity using a video filled with half truth, and would imagine people thinking, "he's losing so having to 'scrape the bottom of the barrel'".

Your question was:
Which shows more love?
A) To sacrifice yourself for someone?
Or
B) To send somebody else while you sit and watch?

A would be your preferred choice, but it would be a 'non sequitur' as you fondly like to term matters, which hold true of a perceived contradiction, GOD stayed on His throne and sent his son, being the clear contradiction in this case.

B Was actually what happened within the Triune nature of the Christian God, thus appears unloving using your own line of questioning.

So really looking back you should have thanked me for giving you the sensible option of C, but still no matter.


I refuted this line of reasoning using your own Bible.

I raise my children by introducing them to a GOD that makes sense. That's the best love any parent could ever show their children. I have also explained the Christian concept and they would respond by saying, but that's 3 Gods?! The simple logic and reasoning of children, marvellous isn't it! God bless them.

The Commandments get easier the more you turn to and rely upon GOD. No one is perfect, which is why the spiritual washing we do between prayers nullifies minor sins, we repent for other sins and ask for forgiveness. When we commit a sin, the Angel goes to write it, but the Angel recording good deeds intercedes and says, 'wait, he might repent within a few mins', doing so stops the sin from being recorded. Such is the compassion that GOD shows us. He who fasts in the month of Ramadan has his sins wiped out for the past year, and the year to come. He who stays up and prays during the night of power is granted the reward equal to praying 1,000 months. He who dies with, 'there is no God but GOD' in his heart is guaranteed success. As you can see GOD makes keeping the commandments for his slaves as easy as possible.

There are 8 gates to paradise;

1.Baabus Salaah..those who were punctual in observing their prayers
2.Baabul Jihad..those who participated in jihad (excludes suicide bombers)
3.Baabus Sadaqah...those who frequently gave sadaqah (Charity)
4.Baabur Rayyaan...the ones who constantly fasted
5.Baabul Hajj...those who observe their annual pilgrimage [hajj]
6.Baabul Kadhemean al- Gaidh...this door is reserved for those who suppress their anger and pardon others
7.Baabul Iman...this door is reserved for the entry of those who by virtue of their faith are saved from reckoning and chastisement.
8.Baabuz Dhikr...those who excessively remembered Allah.

There are 7 gates to Hell. <<<May GOD protect us all from them.

This is a just GOD worthy of worship, wouldn't you say?

Or will you really cling onto to the notion that entering Heaven requires no effort, no self sacrifice, no hardship?

As long as you are making Divine love conditional in the name of Islam, you might as well own up to all the Islamic conditions, no matter how ridiculous they are. The position in which one urinates is apparently a big deal in Islam since the failure to do so can result in going to hell. Call it the eighth gate. David Wood did us all a service in making this condition of Islam better known. And that was just Fun Fact 2.

Thank you for responding more directly to the oft-repeated question. As pointed out, if there is no self-sacrifice on God’s part, then humans can show a higher, costlier form of love than God Himself can show. This observation is enough to show that the Islamic concept of God is inferior to the Christian concept. If the Islamic concept were true, then Allah’s creatures would regularly show greater love than Allah. Maybe in Islam that is not a problem. But Christians have a high view of God. And we believe that all people are called to the highest standard of morality possible--which is not the imitation of a violent, squatting slaveowner—but the imitation of the unconditionally loving, selfless, and self-sacrificing God. So even if the sacrifice of God were limited in the Godhead to the Father's beloved Son, Islam still compares unfavorably with Christianity. Concerning your objection, why assume that a loving father would sit impassively while his child suffered? As a father, which would be the greater sacrifice? (A) To see your beloved child suffer torment and die or (B) to die in your child’s place? 2 Samuel 18:33.

Regarding the topic of conditional love with respect to parenthood, should a parent’s love for his children be conditional like the Islamic Allah’s love is conditional? Should a parent stop loving his child if his child fails to fulfill all the parent’s reasonable commands and conditions? What is the correct motivation for a parent in punishing his child?

In low theologies, hell is inevitably the deepest truth, and the love of God is not so deep as hell. By this definition Islam is a low theology. It sounds as though the Muslim’s only or primary concern is mercenary, to avoid hell and to earn enough of Allah’s love to be able enter paradise. It also seems that Islam underestimates both sin and its cure. Sin is primarily a matter of the heart, not a failure to keep arbitrary, external rules. If you have selfishness, hatred, lust, pride, envy, etc., in your heart, no repeated washings of your elbows and toes or peeing like a girl is going to cleanse your heart. The heart must be purified, and no one can do this by himself. Proverbs 20:9. And no one can earn a new pure heart with his old impure heart. New wine must be put into new wineskins. New cloth must be applied to a new garment. Salvation can come only through a precious but free gift. One’s imperfect works cannot buy it. Acts 8:20. And a gift given freely and unearned has a great advantage: it banishes all pride. If you think you have earned God’s love, then you might harbor pride in your heart that you are better than somebody else. But God abhors pride. Proverbs 21:4. And pride defiles the person. Mark 7:18-23.

 

[Muslim-UK]

As long as you are making Divine love conditional in the name of Islam, you might as well own up to all the Islamic conditions, no matter how ridiculous they are. The position in which one urinates is apparently a big deal in Islam since the failure to do so can result in going to hell. Call it the eighth gate. David Wood did us all a service in making this condition of Islam better known. And that was just Fun Fact 2.

Punishment of the grave is not hell.

Benefits of squatting when peeing:
1. Hit the target 100% of the time
2. It can help ward of prostrate problems
3. Men who sit whilst peeing have a longer healthier sex life
4. It’s more relaxing
5. No more penis fly catcher
6. 49% of Men in Japan Pee sitting down. Taiwan, Germany and Sweden are all active in persuading their male population to change their ways on the grounds of health and better hygiene.
7. For those that take social media to the loo...easier to use.
8. Men are often urged to use the sitting position as to diminish spattering of urine
9. Proponents of seated male urination in Germany typically cite its hygienic and health benefits called sitzpinkln
10. Enlarged prostate urinated better in the sitting position compared to the standing. 11.Sitting down can avoid micturition syncope (fainting) during or immediately after urination due to a severe drop in blood pressure.
12. Sitting down makes it easier to just drop your pants instead of fiddling around with zips. So there is merits when you sit down and pee ...AND START PREPARING FOR YOU OLD AGE...
7 Reasons Men NEED To Pee Sitting Down
If you're a true gentleman, you should pee sitting down

Thank you for responding more directly to the oft-repeated question. As pointed out, if there is no self-sacrifice on God’s part, then humans can show a higher, costlier form of love than God Himself can show.

There is no self sacrifice by God in the NT. God didn't die on the cross, it was a 100% man, a good man free from sin, but a man none the less. If this is what makes God happy, then why condemn the ancients for sacrificing innocent babies to Moloch?

The rest of your post is largely irrelevant until the above point is addressed.

Concerning your objection, why assume that a loving father would sit impassively while his child suffered? As a father, which would be the greater sacrifice? (A) To see your beloved child suffer torment and die or (B) to die in your child’s place? 2 Samuel 18:33.

I'm pleased you saw the difficulty of your previous multiple choice question. What you propose now is equally flawed because the above example is from the mind of the Father, who really should come up with a better solution to solve the problem of Sin and save you these embarrassing multiple fail questions.

To visualise what you propose, consider the following:
Someone broke into my home, tied me and my son up over an unpaid debt I owed. They then took apart my wooden kitchen table and constructed a cross with a view to crucifying me, I would be panic stricken at the thought, but then they said, actually I'm going to kill your son. I would find it horrific and unbearable (A), but you have to remember, I have NO choice in this matter. GOD however does.

Regarding the topic of conditional love with respect to parenthood, should a parent’s love for his children be conditional like the Islamic Allah’s love is conditional? Should a parent stop loving his child if his child fails to fulfill all the parent’s reasonable commands and conditions? What is the correct motivation for a parent in punishing his child?

Say a Mother has Triplets, all boys and each very different to the other, Mark, Paul and John. She loves them equally, and knows they have a very important exam coming up that will affect their futures for ever. She wants all three to pass, but as individuals they are very different to motivate...

Mark loves his Mother and will do anything to please, will study hard and prepare well for the exam. He's the kind of son who helps his mum, takes out the rubbish, keeps his room clean etc

Paul is motivated to do the same hard work for the exam if something is offered, pocket money, trip to cinema, video game etc

John doesn't care, and will only respond to threats of punishment, lose of TV, no going out to play before he pulls up his socks and studies hard for the upcoming exam.

The Mother loves all 3 boys equally, but has different ways of helping them make a success of themselves for their own benefit. Even threatening to punish John for his own good. Allah swt is no different, some people are told to obey and they do, others are given incentives and the last group threatened with Hell. Conditional love, but with deep meaning if you look beyond the surface and ultimately for our benefit.

In low theologies, hell is inevitably the deepest truth, and the love of God is not so deep as hell. By this definition Islam is a low theology. It sounds as though the Muslim’s only or primary concern is mercenary, to avoid hell and to earn enough of Allah’s love to be able enter paradise.

Did you know there were some 50 Gospels doing the rounds during early Christianity, some of these contained very clear punishments for those who disobeyed GOD. Given the Church wanted to promote a free pass into Heaven, they decided against including these depictions of punishments to come in the hereafter:

20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

You can see why this notion of a loving God requiring nothing but acceptance of a crucifiction is nothing but wishful thinking.
The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by Roberts-Donaldson)

It also seems that Islam underestimates both sin and its cure. Sin is primarily a matter of the heart, not a failure to keep arbitrary, external rules. If you have selfishness, hatred, lust, pride, envy, etc., in your heart, no repeated washings of your elbows and toes or peeing like a girl is going to cleanse your heart. The heart must be purified, and no one can do this by himself.

The heart can be purified, that's a fact. Prayer, fasting, remembrance of GOD, doing good works, refraining from bad acts all help to purify the heart.

Proverbs 20:9. And no one can earn a new pure heart with his old impure heart. New wine must be put into new wineskins. New cloth must be applied to a new garment. Salvation can come only through a precious but free gift. One’s imperfect works cannot buy it. Acts 8:20.

Proverbs 20:11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

If you had read Proverbs 20 in full, you would have seen it refutes the idea of a free pass and says rely on good honest works and effort for success.

Acts 8
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Correct money won't buy you the ability to heal, that only comes from GOD's Spirit entering your heart.

I can't see a ref for wine and new wine skins.

And a gift given freely and unearned has a great advantage: it banishes all pride. If you think you have earned God’s love, then you might harbor pride in your heart that you are better than somebody else. But God abhors pride. Proverbs 21:4. And pride defiles the person. Mark 7:18-23.

Pride is evil, which is why people who hold pride or racism in their hearts will not enter paradise. The Prophet pbuh made clear, 'All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.'

Always be humble and want for your brother what you want for yourself. The Prophet pbuh was guaranteed paradise, but still maintained humbleness right up to his last breath, even worrying he might not attain paradise. A clear lesson for us all, never let pride enter your heart as it will deceive you.

 

[Mediaeval]

Punishment of the grave is not hell.

Benefits of squatting when peeing:
1. Hit the target 100% of the time
2. It can help ward of prostrate problems
3. Men who sit whilst peeing have a longer healthier sex life
4. It’s more relaxing
5. No more penis fly catcher
6. 49% of Men in Japan Pee sitting down. Taiwan, Germany and Sweden are all active in persuading their male population to change their ways on the grounds of health and better hygiene.
7. For those that take social media to the loo...easier to use.
8. Men are often urged to use the sitting position as to diminish spattering of urine
9. Proponents of seated male urination in Germany typically cite its hygienic and health benefits called sitzpinkln
10. Enlarged prostate urinated better in the sitting position compared to the standing. 11.Sitting down can avoid micturition syncope (fainting) during or immediately after urination due to a severe drop in blood pressure.
12. Sitting down makes it easier to just drop your pants instead of fiddling around with zips. So there is merits when you sit down and pee ...AND START PREPARING FOR YOU OLD AGE...
7 Reasons Men NEED To Pee Sitting Down
If you're a true gentleman, you should pee sitting down


There is no self sacrifice by God in the NT. God didn't die on the cross, it was a 100% man, a good man free from sin, but a man none the less. If this is what makes God happy, then why condemn the ancients for sacrificing innocent babies to Moloch?

The rest of your post is largely irrelevant until the above point is addressed.


I'm pleased you saw the difficulty of your previous multiple choice question. What you propose now is equally flawed because the above example is from the mind of the Father, who really should come up with a better solution to solve the problem of Sin and save you these embarrassing multiple fail questions.

To visualise what you propose, consider the following:
Someone broke into my home, tied me and my son up over an unpaid debt I owed. They then took apart my wooden kitchen table and constructed a cross with a view to crucifying me, I would be panic stricken at the thought, but then they said, actually I'm going to kill your son. I would find it horrific and unbearable (A), but you have to remember, I have NO choice in this matter. GOD however does.


Say a Mother has Triplets, all boys and each very different to the other, Mark, Paul and John. She loves them equally, and knows they have a very important exam coming up that will affect their futures for ever. She wants all three to pass, but as individuals they are very different to motivate...

Mark loves his Mother and will do anything to please, will study hard and prepare well for the exam. He's the kind of son who helps his mum, takes out the rubbish, keeps his room clean etc

Paul is motivated to do the same hard work for the exam if something is offered, pocket money, trip to cinema, video game etc

John doesn't care, and will only respond to threats of punishment, lose of TV, no going out to play before he pulls up his socks and studies hard for the upcoming exam.

The Mother loves all 3 boys equally, but has different ways of helping them make a success of themselves for their own benefit. Even threatening to punish John for his own good. Allah swt is no different, some people are told to obey and they do, others are given incentives and the last group threatened with Hell. Conditional love, but with deep meaning if you look beyond the surface and ultimately for our benefit.

Did you know there were some 50 Gospels doing the rounds during early Christianity, some of these contained very clear punishments for those who disobeyed GOD. Given the Church wanted to promote a free pass into Heaven, they decided against including these depictions of punishments to come in the hereafter:

20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

You can see why this notion of a loving God requiring nothing but acceptance of a crucifiction is nothing but wishful thinking.
The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by Roberts-Donaldson)

The heart can be purified, that's a fact. Prayer, fasting, remembrance of GOD, doing good works, refraining from bad acts all help to purify the heart.


Proverbs 20:11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

If you had read Proverbs 20 in full, you would have seen it refutes the idea of a free pass and says rely on good honest works and effort for success.

Acts 8
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Correct money won't buy you the ability to heal, that only comes from GOD's Spirit entering your heart.

I can't see a ref for wine and new wine skins.

Pride is evil, which is why people who hold pride or racism in their hearts will not enter paradise. The Prophet pbuh made clear, 'All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.'

Always be humble and want for your brother what you want for yourself. The Prophet pbuh was guaranteed paradise, but still maintained humbleness right up to his last breath, even worrying he might not attain paradise. A clear lesson for us all, never let pride enter your heart as it will deceive you.

Even if squatting had all those alleged practical benefits and more, why would you need a command and the threat of torment in the grave to enforce it? Harsh as well as ridiculous.

My two hypothetical multiple-choice scenarios were so worded as to be independent of the question of the Messiah’s Deity. They are moral and philosophical questions and can be considered separately. True, they are uncomfortable questions for those who deny the Holy Trinity and Incarnation. But there is no “difficulty” in either pair of questions. They are easily answered since the answers are so obvious and intuitive.

Your illustration about the mother and her boys is a good one. The mother loves all the boys “equally,” independently of their performances. I would call that unconditional love. The only thing conditional are the different methods that the mother must use in dealing with each child. Punishing a disobedient child for the child’s own good is itself an act of love, as you said. But your illustration contrasts with surah 3:32, which says “Allah does not love the disbelievers.” Is your hypothetical mother more loving than the Islamic Allah?

While we are on the topic, what about my earlier question? Since you make Divine love conditional, have you personally kept all the commandments and fulfilled all the conditions necessary to earn God’s love?

Instead of denying that hell is the deepest truth in Islam and that Islam is a low theology which produces mercenary Muslims, you quoted a fanciful forgery that carries no authority with either you or me. Strange. But then again, the Quran itself is a fanciful forgery.

You should not speculate about other people’s Bible-reading habits. I have read Proverbs 20 multiple times and through the whole Bible continuously, page by page, for years. I can attest by firsthand experience that the Bible is an inexhaustible treasure of good news, devotion, knowledge, wisdom, guidance, comfort, and hope, so full and complete that any addition to it would be, in effect, a subtraction. Thanks be to God for always faithfully preserving His truth for mankind from generation to generation! I can also assure you the Bible nowhere says that we must earn God’s love. God’s love is a given for all people everywhere, demonstrated above all in Jesus Christ.

According to the Bible, God cleanses the heart so that the believer can produce rightly-motivated, non-mercenary good works such as "prayer, fasting, remembrance of God," etc. A heart that produces outwardly good works just to avoid hell has a poor, servile motivation. Without love towards God and towards one’s neighbor, a man’s works lack the right motivation. 1 Corinthians 13:2. Without the right attitude of heart, even a devoutly religious person could do an abundance of apparently good acts and still fall under Divine condemnation. Matthew 23:27. The tree itself, the heart, must be good before it can bear good fruit. Matthew 7:17-18.

The illustrations of wineskins and cloth are found in Matthew 9, Mark 2, and Luke 5.

If racism is bad in Islam, then why did Muhammad purchase a non-black slave with two black slaves, as documented in the first David Wood video?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Even if squatting had all those alleged practical benefits and more, why would you need a command and the threat of torment in the grave to enforce it? Harsh as well as ridiculous.

The seriousness of the matter is performing prayers in clothing free from urine and other impurities. When you pray, you are standing before GOD, so should be clean both in clothing and bodily.

My two hypothetical multiple-choice scenarios were so worded as to be independent of the question of the Messiah’s Deity. They are moral and philosophical questions and can be considered separately. True, they are uncomfortable questions for those who deny the Holy Trinity and Incarnation. But there is no “difficulty” in either pair of questions. They are easily answered since the answers are so obvious and intuitive.

Perhaps establish if the Trinity is a concept from the Almighty, as that would surely nullify the need to explain it using hypothetical scenarios.

But your illustration contrasts with surah 3:32, which says “Allah does not love the disbelievers.” Is your hypothetical mother more loving than the Islamic Allah?

Disbelievers are child number 3 in my example, GOD is warning them throughout the Qur'an. When they return to their Lord they won't be able to say He is unjust when they are shown what they have earned.

While we are on the topic, what about my earlier question? Since you make Divine love conditional, have you personally kept all the commandments and fulfilled all the conditions necessary to earn God’s love?

I answered in post 183 above..

"The Commandments get easier the more you turn to and rely upon GOD" etc etc
And yes aside from Hajj, (Pilgrimage) I have obeyed the 5 Pillars of Islam, pray 5 times a day, remember GOD as often as possible, fast in the month of Ramadan, learn the Qur'an etc
As I said, no one is perfect, and that's how GOD created us. Perfection would mean to test, no stumbling along the way, no struggle, no mistakes; these are things that make us turn to GOD in sincere repentance, He loves for his creation to turn to him, both in the good and bad times, the highs and the lows.

Instead of denying that hell is the deepest truth in Islam and that Islam is a low theology which produces mercenary Muslims, you quoted a fanciful forgery that carries no authority with either you or me. Strange. But then again, the Quran itself is a fanciful forgery.

It is a Gospel kept out of the Bible, one that was in circulation amongst the early church of the Second Century. My point was to show Christians did have 'low theology' as you pit it of a very real Hell. even in the Gospels you accept as 'inspired' there are clear mentions of Hell. Jesus pbuh advises cutting off the foot or hand that sins, and gouge out the eyes should they cause you to sin. For it's better to be without than suffer Hell.

You should not speculate about other people’s Bible-reading habits. I have read Proverbs 20 multiple times and through the whole Bible continuously, page by page, for years.

I can also assure you the Bible nowhere says that we must earn God’s love. God’s love is a given for all people everywhere, demonstrated above all in Jesus Christ.

I said, it says do good works, good deeds. Not, do what you please for you shall receive unconditional love.

According to the Bible, God cleanses the heart so that the believer can produce rightly-motivated, non-mercenary good works such as "prayer, fasting, remembrance of God," etc. A heart that produces outwardly good works just to avoid hell has a poor, servile motivation. Without love towards God and towards one’s neighbor, a man’s works lack the right motivation. 1 Corinthians 13:2. Without the right attitude of heart, even a devoutly religious person could do an abundance of apparently good acts and still fall under Divine condemnation. Matthew 23:27. The tree itself, the heart, must be good before it can bear good fruit. Matthew 7:17-18.

I see you're quoting the Benjamite Pharisee. More of the NT is attributed to him and his followers than anyone else.

Jesus pbuh made clear the Law was to be followed and anyone saying otherwise would be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, and for this reason, his brother James clashed with Saul who gets a fond mention in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the 'spouter of lies'. There's much speculation about Saul being the one identified in Revelation 2:2

If racism is bad in Islam, then why did Muhammad purchase a non-black slave with two black slaves, as documented in the first David Wood video?

It doesn't say the purchased slave was black, Wood is making the assumption based on an assumption.

"A slave came and gave his pledge to the Messenger of Allah to emigrate, and the Prophet did not realize that he was a slave. Then his master came looking for him. The Prophet said; 'Sell him to me.' So he bought him for two black slaves, then he did not accept until he had asked; 'Is he a slave?'''

The owner obviously negotiated 2 slaves for the exchange, and the Prophet pbuh obliged.

The Prophet pbuh freed many slaves, ordered they be clothed, fed and treated well. He said to free a slave was an act of worship:

"Your slaves are your brothers! God has placed them in your care. So, whose brother is under his care, he should feed him what he eats and dress him how he dresses. And do not burden them beyond their capacities; but if you burden them (with an unbearable burden), then help them (by sharing their extra burden)."

Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise. 9:60

"When the servant of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and has undergone its hardship of heat and smoke, he should make him (the servant) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if he does not do that, then he should spare some portion for him."

The Prophet of Mercy forbade hitting the slaves. He declared that the atonement of hitting or slapping a slave is to set him free.

Moreover, a slave is not be addressed with hurtful words. The Prophet of Mercy stated not to address them as, ‘My slave boy or my slave girl." He said, "All of you are slaves of God!" Address them with, "O my young man, O my young lady!"

Slavery (part 2 of 2): Slavery in Islamic Law with Some Historical Observations - The Religion of Islam

How does this compare with slavery issues in the Bible?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Or will you really cling onto to the notion that entering Heaven requires no effort, no self sacrifice, no hardship?

I may be joining in late, but I'd be arguing that the whole notion of trying to "enter heaven" is fundamentally un-Christian; namely the notion of doing X for some kind of reward is incompatible with the fundamental Christian teachings on grace.

In Lutheran theology we understand that this life is a cross that we must bear, this life carries with it burden and hardship and suffering; in this life we labor under sin, and with reality of our own inbuilt mortality. The shadow of death looms over us all. That's simply the reality of things as they are. The Christian is to be taught that it isn't his or her own efforts that accomplish anything for themselves in regard to God's disposition toward them, but instead that we encounter the true God in the person of Jesus and, in particular, we see God's face in the visage of the suffering and crucified Jesus. Ours is the God who suffers, the God who is mocked, the God who endures the shame of crucifixion and who dies ignobly--for no other reason than because He is also the God who loves us, and who cares for us, and who indeed loves everyone without condition, without question. He is the proactive God who comes to us in weakness, not to show us a new set of laws to follow, but to come and share Himself and of Himself freely with a world of rebellious sinners. And it is the reality of His death and resurrection that is the hope, and the reality, of the transformation and restoration of all things, in the end, and the reality of life forever and the victory over the powers of this present age dominated by death, suffering, and violence.

As a Lutheran Christian there can simply be no other option but to "cling onto the notion that entering Heaven requires no effort," for it isn't about what we do, but about what has been done for us, and indeed, for the whole world by God through and in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[habibii zahra]

No, the prophet Muhammad is not mentioned in the bible, this is simply made up garbage.

try to respect yourself before talking about our prophet...garbage is where you put people who disbelieve in the only unique God and I don't mean Christians and jews by that..our prophet is a holy prophet a kind person whether you believe it or not he is mentioned in the bible
What Does the Bible Say About Prophet Muhammad?
I wonder how do you believe in jesus then you hurt others with talking bad about their saints...isn't jesus came with mercy and compassion??
plz try to respect us and our prophet otherwise you are not Christians nor are you following jesus's teachings

 

[Mediaeval]

The seriousness of the matter is performing prayers in clothing free from urine and other impurities. When you pray, you are standing before GOD, so should be clean both in clothing and bodily.

Perhaps establish if the Trinity is a concept from the Almighty, as that would surely nullify the need to explain it using hypothetical scenarios.

Disbelievers are child number 3 in my example, GOD is warning them throughout the Qur'an. When they return to their Lord they won't be able to say He is unjust when they are shown what they have earned.

I answered in post 183 above..

"The Commandments get easier the more you turn to and rely upon GOD" etc etc
And yes aside from Hajj, (Pilgrimage) I have obeyed the 5 Pillars of Islam, pray 5 times a day, remember GOD as often as possible, fast in the month of Ramadan, learn the Qur'an etc
As I said, no one is perfect, and that's how GOD created us. Perfection would mean to test, no stumbling along the way, no struggle, no mistakes; these are things that make us turn to GOD in sincere repentance, He loves for his creation to turn to him, both in the good and bad times, the highs and the lows.

It is a Gospel kept out of the Bible, one that was in circulation amongst the early church of the Second Century. My point was to show Christians did have 'low theology' as you pit it of a very real Hell. even in the Gospels you accept as 'inspired' there are clear mentions of Hell. Jesus pbuh advises cutting off the foot or hand that sins, and gouge out the eyes should they cause you to sin. For it's better to be without than suffer Hell.

I said, it says do good works, good deeds. Not, do what you please for you shall receive unconditional love.

I see you're quoting the Benjamite Pharisee. More of the NT is attributed to him and his followers than anyone else.

Jesus pbuh made clear the Law was to be followed and anyone saying otherwise would be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, and for this reason, his brother James clashed with Saul who gets a fond mention in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the 'spouter of lies'. There's much speculation about Saul being the one identified in Revelation 2:2

It doesn't say the purchased slave was black, Wood is making the assumption based on an assumption.

"A slave came and gave his pledge to the Messenger of Allah to emigrate, and the Prophet did not realize that he was a slave. Then his master came looking for him. The Prophet said; 'Sell him to me.' So he bought him for two black slaves, then he did not accept until he had asked; 'Is he a slave?'''

The owner obviously negotiated 2 slaves for the exchange, and the Prophet pbuh obliged.

The Prophet pbuh freed many slaves, ordered they be clothed, fed and treated well. He said to free a slave was an act of worship:

"Your slaves are your brothers! God has placed them in your care. So, whose brother is under his care, he should feed him what he eats and dress him how he dresses. And do not burden them beyond their capacities; but if you burden them (with an unbearable burden), then help them (by sharing their extra burden)."

Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise. 9:60

"When the servant of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and has undergone its hardship of heat and smoke, he should make him (the servant) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if he does not do that, then he should spare some portion for him."

The Prophet of Mercy forbade hitting the slaves. He declared that the atonement of hitting or slapping a slave is to set him free.

Moreover, a slave is not be addressed with hurtful words. The Prophet of Mercy stated not to address them as, ‘My slave boy or my slave girl." He said, "All of you are slaves of God!" Address them with, "O my young man, O my young lady!"

Slavery (part 2 of 2): Slavery in Islamic Law with Some Historical Observations - The Religion of Islam

How does this compare with slavery issues in the Bible?

The importance of being clean during worship (or in general) was not in question, as your answer implied. The question was, Why would you need the threat of torment in the grave to enforce the practice of male squatting? Such a position was never commanded since the time of Adam. And even a child can learn to be clean without harsh threats. David Wood’s explanation seems plausible. Muhammad was tired of people making fun of his practice, so to justify himself and condemn others he made what should be a matter of personal freedom and common sense into a matter of obligation, burdening the conscience and attaching a harsh penalty for non-compliance. Is there also a harsh penalty for failing to enter the lavatory with the left foot?

If disbelievers are child number 3 in your example and the mother therein still loves child number 3 even though he is disobedient, and if the mother’s love is like God’s love, then it follows that God loves the disobedient too. But that contradicts surah 3:32, which says that Allah does not love disbelievers. Therefore even your hypothetical human mother shows more love than the Islamic Allah.

Another answer you gave did not address the actual question: “Since you make Divine love conditional, have you personally kept all the commandments and fulfilled all the conditions necessary to earn God’s love?” To answer this question requires only a yes or no. Are you sure or not that you have done enough to earn God’s love?

Sinful human beings universally have a tendency to underestimate the love of God, but that does not excuse the tendency. Low theologies should be replaced with a theology more worthy of God’s character. The gospel of God’s unconditional love in Christ is uniquely and abundantly qualified to dispel low theologies. After all, should a parent want his children to obey only or primarily because they fear punishment? Should a parent want his children to obey only or primarily to earn their parent’s love, as if the parent’s love for them could be in doubt?

I agree with you that the Bible “says do good works, good deeds. Not, do what you please for you shall receive unconditional love.” But nobody disagrees with that.

In your reply about the slave hadith, you did not answer the question I posed, and Wood never assumed the purchased slave was black.

 

[Muslim-UK]

The importance of being clean during worship (or in general) was not in question, as your answer implied. The question was, Why would you need the threat of torment in the grave to enforce the practice of male squatting?

If people were able to stop urine staining their clothes, then it follows no reason to threaten with punishment of the grave. The threat of punishment served to make people careful and the best way to avoid the issue was to squat, as was the practice in many cultures of the time.

Such a position was never commanded since the time of Adam. And even a child can learn to be clean without harsh threats.

Do what you may, but urinating whilst standing risks spoiling the clothes, the practice also significantly reduces post-micturition dribble, especially as people age.
Store Your Life: Man urinating posture predict longevity,squatting urination can prevent cancer?

Is there also a harsh penalty for failing to enter the lavatory with the left foot?

Don't think so, perhaps ask Mr Wood.

If disbelievers are child number 3 in your example and the mother therein still loves child number 3 even though he is disobedient, and if the mother’s love is like God’s love, then it follows that God loves the disobedient too. But that contradicts surah 3:32, which says that Allah does not love disbelievers. Therefore even your hypothetical human mother shows more love than the Islamic Allah.

The Mother is preparing the children for a life changing test. She's not the examiner, that's Allah swt, and the punishment for disobedience is of the non believers making. The Christian version of Allah swt doesn't love disbelievers either, because in your version, the non believers has to accept Jesus pbuh as having died on the cross to obtain salvation, failure to do so is eternal damnation.

Another answer you gave did not address the actual question: “Since you make Divine love conditional, have you personally kept all the commandments and fulfilled all the conditions necessary to earn God’s love?” To answer this question requires only a yes or no. Are you sure or not that you have done enough to earn God’s love?

GOD doesn't require yes or no, He only requires sincere effort.

Sinful human beings universally have a tendency to underestimate the love of God, but that does not excuse the tendency.

You under estimate his wrath too.

Low theologies should be replaced with a theology more worthy of God’s character. The gospel of God’s unconditional love in Christ is uniquely and abundantly qualified to dispel low theologies. After all, should a parent want his children to obey only or primarily because they fear punishment? Should a parent want his children to obey only or primarily to earn their parent’s love, as if the parent’s love for them could be in doubt?

The Gospel love is a myth, and one only has to ask a few questions to establish it is very much conditional love. Weak theologies should be replaced with one that's easy to comprehend and makes sense. Worshipping 3 Gods - Trinity is wrong and will lead to damnation.

In your reply about the slave hadith, you did not answer the question I posed, and Wood never assumed the purchased slave was black.

You referred to the purchased slave as 'non black' clearly implying he was of a different race, thus the question on 'racism'. See below

If racism is bad in Islam, then why did Muhammad purchase a non-black slave with two black slaves, as documented in the first David Wood video?

My response addressed the issue, and showed it had nothing to do with race.

 

[Landon Caeli]

garbage is where you put people who disbelieve in the only unique God and I don't mean Christians and jews

It is..? I Didn't know that. Where did you learn such wisdom.....?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Was Mohammed mad a lot too?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Honesty, the more I think about how disgusting that mentality is, the more reason I have to believe that the people who peddle it are deranged ideologues -Mohammed being the obvious instigator of it.

I truly hope there are some Muslims and Bahai who don't believe in that.

 

[habibii zahra]

Honesty, the more I think about how disgusting that mentality is, the more reason I have to believe that the people who peddle it are deranged ideologues -Mohammed being the obvious instigator of it.

I truly hope there are some Muslims and Bahai who don't believe in that.

first our prophet is not mad..a prophet who comes with such a message cannot be mad....second how can he be instigator while he is calling to believe in all monotheistic religions all divine books and in one god unique god for all creatures...
this ideology cannot be found but in islam..does your religion call to believe in all religions??
try to understand Mohammad you will find a great kind man there

 

[Landon Caeli]

first our prophet is not mad..a prophet who comes with such a message cannot be mad....second how can he be instigator while he is calling to believe in all monotheistic religions all divine books and in one god unique god for all creatures...
this ideology cannot be found but in islam..does your religion call to believe in all religions??
try to understand Mohammad you will find a great kind man there

Don't you understand how morally wrong it is to think that Buddhists and Zoroastrians should be considered "garbage"..? These are people and it is evil to think that way about people.

...If this is what Mohammed teaches, then he is not affiliated with God. He is not a messenger, but an idealogue... Not a great or a kind man, and definitely not someone mentioned in an *actual* holy book.

 

[Lukaris]

The lies posted here that Christians worship "3 gods" and that the Gospel message of love is selective stem from a lie that is the premise of this thread. Supposedly Christians deny the existence of an alleged prophet in the Old Testament who is not even there.

We believe in God Who is the author of true love Who became one of us & experienced & redeemed everything that is wrong about us. We know that that true prophets foretold this; a prime example is in Isaiah 53. We know that the love of God is by His grace ( John 3:16-31 , Ephesians 2:8-10 ). That God will discern & fairly judge those who are honestly or dishonestly ignorant of the Gospel ( Matthew 12:31-33 , Romans 2:6-16 etc. ).

The accusations that our New Testament is incoherent are wrong since everything said in it is from the Lord and by His direct apostles & disciples without contradiction.

As early as 100 AD, St. Ignatius of Antioch clarified that he did not speak as an apostle just a few years after the Revelation of St. John. Early bishops like St Irenaeus ferreted out false writings & unbelief. They did not add traditions of man like hadith to plug the gaps of alleged scripture that emerged centuries later.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Don't you understand how morally wrong it is to think that Buddhists and Zoroastrians should be considered "garbage"..? These are people and it is evil to think that way about people.

Who considers Buddhists and Zoroastrians 'garbage'? The majority of Zoroastrians embraced Islam as they could see the clear parallels with their own beliefs. 10's of Millions of Buddhists reverted to Islam and today live along aside Buddhists in China and elsewhere. Every year Hindus, Christians and others revert to Islam in their Thousands. No one is considered 'garbage', we all come from Adam and Eve pbut, all are favoured, otherwise GOD wouldn't send Prophets to guide us.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Who considers Buddhists and Zoroastrians 'garbage'? The majority of Zoroastrians embraced Islam as they could see the clear parallels with their own beliefs. 10's of Millions of Buddhists reverted to Islam and today live along aside Buddhists in China and elsewhere. Every year Hindus, Christians and others revert to Islam in their Thousands. No one is considered 'garbage', we all come from Adam and Eve pbut, all are favoured, otherwise GOD wouldn't send Prophets to guide us.

Your Muslim friend suggested that anyone not from Islam, Christianity or Judaism is equal to "garbage". I resent that remark.