the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

[Super Kal]

futurism erroneously holds two separate mediations of Christ.

DISPENSATIONAL premillennialism does.
John Hagee does.
EW Bullinger did.

Irenaeus was a premillennial, yet was not dispensational
Justin Martyr was a premillennial, yet was not dispensational

but just as the saying goes: all salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon
the same can be said here as well: all Dispensationalists are premillennialists, but not all premillennialists are Dispensationalists

there are distinct differences between dispensational premillennialism and historic premillennialism

just as there are certain variances of certain interpretations of scripture in historicism... Doug Batchelor, senior pastor of Granite Bay Church in California and the president of Amazing Facts holds to the belief that the United States is the beast of the earth; this is an historicist interpretation

the creator of the youtube channel, BibleorTraditions, is also an historicist (sadly hasnt put up any new videos since 2020), and holds to the belief that the Pope is both the Beast of the Sea and the Beast of the earth.

 

[Douggg]

Close only counts in hand grenades and horse shoes. 77 months if assuming 30 day months, does not equal 2300 days, it equals 2310 days. Nowhere in Daniel 8 does it say anything about 2310 days, it says 2300 days.

7 months x 30 days = 210 days.
2300 days + 210 days = 2510 days
7 years x 30 days = 2520 days

The ten day difference is due to the clean up starting ten days after the destruction of Gog's army. Also the anointing and confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant, by the prince who shall come, as the Antichrist, will not be on the very day of the destruction of Gog's army, but a unspecified time thereafter.

 

[Douggg]

It's not talking about the nation of Israel, it's talking about spiritual Israel. Did you miss that the rest of her children besides Jesus are Christians (Revelation 12:17)?

Yes, and that time/times/half times that the dragon persecutes the woman is the second half of the 7 years. Israel, the Jews, become Christians right before that time.

In Daniel 12:1, Michael stands up for Daniel's people, which in Revelation 12 is Michael and his angels going to war against Satan and his angels.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, and that time/times/half times that the dragon persecutes the woman is the second half of the 7 years. Israel, the Jews, become Christians right before that time.

I completely disagree. It's talking about Christians in general, so it includes Gentile believers as well. The New Testament authors, including John, did not share your Israel-centric perspective. The book of Revelation is about Jesus and His church and those who oppose Him and His church. It's not about Israel. It's addressed to Christian churches that consisted of Jew and Gentile believers.

In Daniel 12:1, Michael stands up for Daniel's people, which in Revelation 12 is Michael and his angels going to war against Satan and his angels.

The accuser, Satan, was cast out of heaven long ago which is why Paul indicated in Romans 8:31-35 that no one can accuse God's people of anything any longer. The reason for that should be obvious. Our sins are forgiven. What can anyone accuse us of that hasn't been forgiven?

 

[Douggg]

Are we supposed to interpret scripture based on what non-Christian Jews think or what they want to happen? Of course not. So, this comment means nothing to me.

There is biblical basis for what the Jews think. In Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect from the four quarters of heaven, is the complete gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel.

From the four quarters of heaven is a phrase coming from Deuteronomy 30:1-6, in verse 4, about God regathering the Jews from the far parts of the earth when they return to right relationship with Him.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Douggg]

I completely disagree. It's talking about Christians in general, so it includes Gentile believers as well. The New Testament authors, including John, did not share your Israel-centric perspective. The book of Revelation is about Jesus and His church and those who oppose Him and His church. It's not about Israel. It's addressed to Christian churches that consisted of Jew and Gentile believers.

Revelation is about the Revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and great glory.

The accuser, Satan, was cast out of heaven long ago which is why Paul indicated in Romans 8:31-35 that no one can accuse God's people of anything any longer. The reason for that should be obvious. Our sins are forgiven. What can anyone accuse us of that hasn't been forgiven?

Out of the third heaven a long time ago. The war that takes place in Revelation 12:7-9 is in the second heaven.

Paul said that he was caught up to the third heaven, 2Corinthians12:2

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation is about the Revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and great glory.

Yes, and about His church as well.

Out of the third heaven a long time ago.

Yes, and that is what Revelation 12 is referring to.

The war that takes place in Revelation 12:7-9 is in the second heaven.

There is no support for this opinion whatsoever. This is just yet another of your interpretations that you have all to yourself.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There is biblical basis for what the Jews think.

Nah, there isn't.

In Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect from the four quarters of heaven, is the complete gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel.

From the four quarters of heaven is a phrase coming from Deuteronomy 30:1-6, in verse 4, about God regathering the Jews from the far parts of the earth when they return to right relationship with Him.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

No, that's talking about Christians being gathered and caught up to Christ at His return. When you look at the parallel passage in Mark 13:26-27 you can see that it mentions not only from the uttermost parts of heaven but also from the uttermost parts of earth. The souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered from heaven at that time while those who are alive and remain are gathered from earth. The souls of the dead in Christ will unit with their resurrected, changed bodies and they all together will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Douggg]

Nah, there isn't.

No, that's talking about Christians being gathered and caught up to Christ at His return. When you look at the parallel passage in Mark 13:26-27 you can see that it mentions not only from the uttermost parts of heaven but also from the uttermost parts of earth. The souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered from heaven at that time while those who are alive and remain are gathered from earth. The souls of the dead in Christ will unit with their resurrected, changed bodies and they all together will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews and is Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returning to this earth at the end of the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

[Douggg]

There is no support for this opinion whatsoever. This is just yet another of your interpretations that you have all to yourself.

Daniel 12:1 is time of the end. Satan at the time of the end is no longer in the third heaven, having been kicked out of the third heaven long ago. Satan and his angels occupy no farther than the second heaven.

The text of Revelation 12:7-9 doesn't say second heaven, but it also doesn't say third heaven. Since Satan was cast out of the third heaven a long time ago, Revelation 12:7-9 the war, leaving Satan with just a time/times/half time left, it is talking about from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 down to earth.

With the results being, as it says in Daniel 12:1 a time of trouble, such as never before for the nation of Israel.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews and is Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returning to this earth at the end of the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

No, it's about the gathering of Christians to meet Christ in the air. He will only descend from heaven once in the future. There is no basis for thinking He will descend from heaven, go back and then later descend from heaven again. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Daniel 12:1 is time of the end.

That has no relation to Revelation 12:7-9.

Satan at the time of the end is no longer in the third heaven, having been kicked out of the third heaven long ago. Satan and his angels occupy no farther than the second heaven.

You just say things like this, but you have nothing to back them up. You think I'm going to be convinced by your opinions that don't have any scriptural support?

The text of Revelation 12:7-9 doesn't say second heaven, but it also doesn't say third heaven.

It's the place where he accused believers before God. That would obviously be the third heaven since that is where God resides. You're making something very simple into something convoluted.

 

[Super Kal]

Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews

lets put this isolated verse back into the proper context...

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

according to the context, v31 has nothing to do with the Jews simply returning to the land of Israel. the surrounding context adds definition to what kind of event this will be
this event is also described elsewhere to a similar extent with other additions in Revelation 6:12-14, Mark 13:24-27, Joel 2:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Not as far as Salvation goes. There is only one way to be saved for all of humanity.


You should pick a different word(s) than "mediations" to be more clear as to what you mean.

I wrote you in my last post that futurists believe that there is only one way to be saved, not two. And that one way, whether Jew or Gentile, is by believing upon the shed blood of Jesus, and his resurrection on the third day.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


The Jews, who currently do not believe in Jesus, turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, Revelation 12:10.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Jerry, you need to tone down your rhetoric. I am not preverting prophecy.

Ezekiel 38-39 is clearly referring to the Jews being back in the land of Israel again. Which took place beginning in 1948 and is currently a nation over there that anyone can see.

The question of if you believe in the Second Coming of Jesus is not silly. I as a futurist believe in the Second Coming of Jesus, a literal unmatched in human history event. An event that is preceded by the events found in the end times passages in the bible.

What are the events of our generation that precede the Second Coming of Jesus ? Provide a list in sequence, since you do not have chart making skills.

One, your dispensationalist comment that “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years,” insinuates that Christ has not been mediating for the Jews since the first advent. It insinuates that God has a separate time to mediation for Jews, 3 1/2 years prior to the age to come. That's two separate mediations.

Such an insinuation conflicts with the prophecy that God sowed both houses of Israel in the wilderness or world in the inter-advent age to restore them under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23). This is also confirmed by Matthew 13:24-30.

As of yet, you have presented nothing in support of the futurist insinuation that, “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years.”

You have yet to surmount that the scriptures affirm God isn’t waiting to save the Jews when Christ returns; he finishes what he started back at the first advent.

Two, as for Revelation 12:10, you ignore the context. The woman is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up to heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness, as prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent.

Three, as for Ezekiel 38-39, verse 8 of 38 exposes your interpretation as fallacious.

After many days, according to Ezekiel 38:8 (which is a prophetic time denoting the 1000 years in Revelation 20), God moves Gog and Magog to come against “the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.” This is clearly after Israel has been gathered back to their land, which we see in Isaiah 14:1-2. This denotes the time after the 1000 years, just as in Revelation. Your misrepresentation of the phenomenon is quite appalling.

Four, as to your silly question, I stated to you sometime in the past that I hold the premillennialist interpretation that the phenomenon of Gog and Magog follows the 1000 years, by which I already answered that silly question. Want to ask it again?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

DISPENSATIONAL premillennialism does.
John Hagee does.
EW Bullinger did.

Irenaeus was a premillennial, yet was not dispensational
Justin Martyr was a premillennial, yet was not dispensational

but just as the saying goes: all salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon
the same can be said here as well: all Dispensationalists are premillennialists, but not all premillennialists are Dispensationalists

there are distinct differences between dispensational premillennialism and historic premillennialism

just as there are certain variances of certain interpretations of scripture in historicism... Doug Batchelor, senior pastor of Granite Bay Church in California and the president of Amazing Facts holds to the belief that the United States is the beast of the earth; this is an historicist interpretation

the creator of the youtube channel, BibleorTraditions, is also an historicist (sadly hasnt put up any new videos since 2020), and holds to the belief that the Pope is both the Beast of the Sea and the Beast of the earth.

All of the major schools of eschatology diverge on many issues within their groups. I have been studying them all for some time and have come to the conclusion that they're all missing the prophecies that God was going to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep at the first advent. They simply do not see this. Such blindness leads to preterism and dispensationalism, and even divergence amongst historicists. Compatibilism best addresses it.

 

[Super Kal]

Such blindness leads to preterism and dispensationalism, and even divergence amongst historicists. Compatibilism best addresses it.

this statement contradicts every post you've made in defense of historicism.
if you believe that a type of compatibilism should exist, then you need to drop the ridicule of premillennialism, because you're contradicting yourself right now

 

[Douggg]

One, your dispensationalist comment that “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years,” insinuates that Christ has not been mediating for the Jews since the first advent. It insinuates that God has a separate time to mediation for Jews, 3 1/2 years prior to the age to come. That's two separate mediations.

Such an insinuation conflicts with the prophecy that God sowed both houses of Israel in the wilderness or world in the inter-advent age to restore them under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23). This is also confirmed by Matthew 13:24-30.

As of yet, you have presented nothing in support of the futurist insinuation that, “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years.”

You have yet to surmount that the scriptures affirm God isn’t waiting to save the Jews when Christ returns; he finishes what he started back at the first advent.

Two, as for Revelation 12:10, you ignore the context. The woman is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up to heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness, as prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent.

Three, as for Ezekiel 38-39, verse 8 of 38 exposes your interpretation as fallacious.

After many days, according to Ezekiel 38:8 (which is a prophetic time denoting the 1000 years in Revelation 20), God moves Gog and Magog to come against “the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.” This is clearly after Israel has been gathered back to their land, which we see in Isaiah 14:1-2. This denotes the time after the 1000 years, just as in Revelation. Your misrepresentation of the phenomenon is quite appalling.

Four, as to your silly question, I stated to you sometime in the past that I hold the premillennialist interpretation that the phenomenon of Gog and Magog follows the 1000 years, by which I already answered that silly question. Want to ask it again?

Jerry, I am not a dispensationalist.

The way of salvation has been available for anyone to receive since the time of the cross, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is an event seven years before Jesus's second coming. There is no seven years following the attack on the camp of the saints in Revelation 20. Nor 7 months of clean up of the land of the dead bodies, by Israel, in Revelation 20.

The Jews have come out of the nations following world war II and the nation of Israel was born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8, in May 14, 1948.

The question of mine was not whether you were a dispensationalist or not, but rather do you believe in the Second Coming of Jesus? You have not answered it.
A simple yes or no will do.

If your answer is yes, list the end times events of the bible according to your historist view that precede Jesus's Second Coming in timeline order.

 

[Douggg]

according to the context, v31 has nothing to do with the Jews simply returning to the land of Israel. the surrounding context adds definition to what kind of event this will be

Actually it does. In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon event, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus speaking in the text having just executed judgment on the heathen in verse 17-20. And has set his glory among the nations.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The fullness of the gathering of the Jews back into the land of Israel is in Ezekiel 39:28.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

In the gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel in Matthew 24:31 - no one in the text of Matthew 24:31 are changed into their incorruptible everlasting bodies. The rapture/resurrection takes place earlier, before the great tribulation begins.

Where Jesus will be when Matthew 24:31 takes place will be in Jerusalem, having returned to this earth.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

this statement contradicts every post you've made in defense of historicism.
if you believe that a type of compatibilism should exist, then you need to drop the ridicule of premillennialism, because you're contradicting yourself right now

There is no contradiction and I never ridiculed premillennialism; I'm a premillennialist. I criticized dispensationalism, which is a difference. And as for historicism, it has need of some progressive revelation like the prophecies that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep. That's what my book is about.

 

[Douggg]

I'm a premillennialist; that answers your silly question. It's silly cause I told you I was a premillennialist some time back.

As a premillennialist, please list the events of the end times prophecies in the bible that precede Jesus's Second Coming in timeline order, so I can understand your eschatology take on events.

I figured out you were a dispensationalist from your doctrine; you didn't have to tell me.

And what dispensation have you ever heard me saying we are in ?

I am not a dispensationalist. I am a futurist, but not a dispensationalist.