The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Wrong. He mentions NO GIFTS to unsaved Israel. And you haven't shown any. The gifts of 11:29 that are irrevocable are the gifts that he described previously in his epistle."

No. Read the context. Paul is clearly referencing unsaved Israel in verse 29.

Again, wrong. He was referencing GOD'S GIFTS, which he previously described in that same epistle. So we KNOW exactly what he was referencing when he mentioned "gifts of God".

Where does he connect ANY kind of gift to Israel in ch 11?

28 "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved for the sake of their ancestors.
29 For God’s gifts and calling never change.
30 For just as you disobeyed God in the past but now have received his mercy because of their disobedience, "
(Romans 11:28-30)
(International Standard Version).

Ok, so where does Paul identify any gifts to Israel here?​

This means that Paul is referencing unsaved Israel in regards to God's gifts and calling.

So, what is the gift, specifically? I am not seeing ANY gift being ascribed to Israel.

Also, it is true that God gifts can never change.

Nor be revocable, which is what v.29 says. Clearly. And eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23.

But the gifts AND CALLING of God cannot be undone or changed is based on certain conditions. Or do you believe there are no conditions for a person in coming to the faith?

This isn't the question at all. 11:29 is about those who HAVE RECEIVED God's gift of eternal life. That gift is IRREVOCABLE.

For is not the "calling" of God include certain conditions?

Sure. He calls believers.

Why are you thinking that the gift of God comes with no conditions, if the calling of God comes with certain conditions?

I'm quite happy to review all this with you. Both God's calling, and His gift of eternal life have only 1 condition: faith in Christ. But that's not the issue. Once one meets the condition, they HAVE RECEIVED God's gifts. And those gifts are IRREVOCABLE, which it seems you haven't properly understood.

Or do you believe in Universal Salvation? ...

Only for believers. iow, all believers will be saved. Because the gift of eternal life that they received by faith in Jesus Christ is irrevocable.

You've still NOT shown otherwise.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think I do understand it pretty well now, but Do-it-Yourself theology often takes a little while to get straight, you know?

Stop and think for a moment. Do you honestly believe God will condone a believer's thinking that they can sin at some point in the future and be okay with God? Can God agree with a person's sin? No. Of course not. So the only alternative left to you is to live righteously and holy. By your own power? No. By the power of Jesus Christ and His living within you. So it is not a "Do It Yourself Alone" Type Theology at all. It is a submitting to Jesus Christ and allowing Him to live and reign in your life. It is about making Jesus Christ your Lord, not just in words or in your mind, but with all your heart, mind, and soul. For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).

Anyway, I just thought that your previously stated animosity towards the Roman Catholic Church would carry over to this issue of venial and mortal sins which--despite what you said--is not to be found in Scripture or believed by other denominations.

As I said before, just because the Catholic church believes in the Trinity, does not mean that they are wrong on the topic of the Trinity or other points in Scripture. But truth is not determined by what others believe. Truth is determined by God's Word and by looking at the real world and how it also relates to the spiritual truth in His Word, too.

That said, however, I'm now wondering what you think of the following:
If lesser sins do not threaten one's salvation are they just "freebies" and don't have any consequences in eternity?

I imagine there will be loss of rewards for a believer refusing to be baptized and he dies in disobeying that command. If this is the case, I imagine there will also be many tears shed by that person, too. But Christ will wipe away all their tears. But there is nothing hid that shall not be revealed, though. Also, baptism is not a moral law but it is a ceremonial law. Moral laws are basic common laws that everyone instinctly has written upon their hearts (Including the Gentile world) without any specific command in telling them in what to do. The Moral Law is based on love (See Romans 13:8-10). Granted, we are living in the last days and the love of many has waxed cold.

Also, where does the idea come from that believers can attain to permanent sinlessness in this life?

Are you kidding me? It's everywhere you look in the Bible.
You just cannot see it because you do not want to see it, my friend.
For David said he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11).
Jesus said to two people to "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
In fact, Jesus said to the man he healed in John 5, to:"sin no more, unless a worse thing comes upon you." If you were to talk to this man who was healed, do you think you could convince him to sin and still be saved? If so, how would he not be violating Jesus's command here?
1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
Jesus said, be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Father is perfect because he is holy and sinless.
Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).
"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).
Romans 6:14 says, "sin shall not have dominion over you." Does sin have dominion over a believer if they are enslaved to it?
Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
1 Corinthians 10:13, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Jesus said, "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26). This would obviously include overcoming sin.
The 144,000 is also a future testimony to believers who are completely dedicated to God (Revelation 14:4). These believers will live here upon this Earth. So if it is possible for them, then it is possible for you, too.

I can go on, but hopefully these verses should suffice.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's called, Rock of Ages, and it's a hymn sung and loved by millions, as reflecting the glory of Christ's salvation for sinners, but Jason disapproves. . . Let's rip it out of the hymnals.

The Scriptures say, "....narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,...and so on

In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is clearly talking from his perspective a Jew before he became a Christian. For in Romans 7:14 he says he is carnal and sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin.


....

 

[Albion]

Stop and think for a moment. Do you honestly believe God will condone a believer's thinking that they can sin at some point in the future and be okay with God?

Absolutely. That is the message of the Gospel.

Can God agree with a person's sin? No. Of course not.

But no one is saying that God agrees with anyone's sin.

Are you kidding me? It's everywhere you look in the Bible.
You just cannot see it because you do not want to see it, my friend.
For David said he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11).
Jesus said to two people to "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
In fact, Jesus said to the man he healed in John 5, to:"sin no more, unless a worse thing comes upon you."

None of that answers the question. "Where does the idea come from that believers can attain to permanent sinlessness in this life?" I get the idea that you are equating an admonition to not go on deliberately sinning with being a guarantee that it's possible to be sinless.

 

[sdowney717]

This is the reality of our walk, we no longer walk or live in the things of v5, if we are born of God we no longer live them out in our life, this is not our way of life anymore.
See we have this NEW MAN created by Christ alive inside of us.
This is why those born of God can never lose being saved.
There is the old man and there is the NEW MAN, and for those born of God, God's breathed words says v10 and 11, that they have cast off the old man and put on the NEW MAN, created in the image of God who created him. See this NEW MAN that God created is destined for glorification just as Romans 8:30 tells us.

Colossians 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Carnality but Christ
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul's teaching is clear, we have put on the new man. And so then we are no longer to do the deeds of the old man, see that just does not fit the application anymore does it!

Those who persist in doing the deeds of the old man, no conviction in their walk, well they are not the NEW MAN are they, they are reprobate.

 

[sdowney717]

And Col 3 pretty clearly teaches contrary to sinless perfectionism, as Paul is telling saved people who have put on the NEW MAN not to do those deeds of the old man, which it is clear some were still doing, or Paul would not have written scripture that way.
Example
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

 

[-57]

In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is clearly talking from his perspective a Jew before he became a Christian. For in Romans 7:14 he says he is carnal and sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin.


....

jason0047, you can believe whatever you want to believe.....But as I said before, you, like me are still a sinner....and your theology lands YOU in hell.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is clearly talking from his perspective a Jew before he became a Christian.

His use of the PRESENT TENSE refutes your idea.

For in Romans 7:14 he says he is carnal and sold under sin.

So, Scripture is contradictory, huh? Paul was very clear in 7:14 in his use of the PRESENT TENSE. He didn't say, "WAS carnal". He said IS.

Yet, in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin.....

This is the immediate context for 8:2 - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (v.1)

This verse couldn't be MORE CLEAR about the fact that believers are not under condemnation. If sin could do what you keep claiming it does, then Paul wouldn't have written this verse.

The apostle John said basically the same thing: “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jn 3:18

And…
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” 3:36

Keep in mind that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

When a person believes in Christ, they HAVE RECEIVED the gift of eternal life. And that gift is irrevocable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But no one is saying that God agrees with anyone's sin.

If you think a believer can hold to the idea that they can and still be saved in this life then the logical conclusion is that God has to agree with your way of thinking in order for your way to be correct. Unless of course you are not in line with God's way of thinking. For we are to be ye holy as God is holy. Believing that you will forever abide in your sin in this life is admittance to doing evil at some point in the future (When the Bible says you do not have to do evil).

None of that answers the question. "Where does the idea come from that believers can attain to permanent sinlessness in this life?" I get the idea that you are equating an admonition to not go on deliberately sinning with being a guarantee that it's possible to be sinless.

Sinless Perfection comes from the Bible. And I provided verses for you to show that it is taught in the Holy Scriptures. The fact that you cannot see it does not erase the fact that it is clearly taught in God's Word. For there are many things in life that are hidden to people because they do not want to see a particular thing for their own personal reasons.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

jason0047, you can believe whatever you want to believe.....But as I said before, you, like me are still a sinner....and your theology lands YOU in hell.

Look. You are not fooling anyone (who would be pure in heart). Anyone who has a moral compass or has a sense of right and wrong to them knows that making a declaration to do evil in the future at some point makes them evil. For a murderer is still a murderer if he declares that he will murder at some point in the future and he just cannot help it. It is no different with any other horrible sin that can separate a person from God.

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the reality of our walk, we no longer walk or live in the things of v5, if we are born of God we no longer live them out in our life, this is not our way of life anymore.
See we have this NEW MAN created by Christ alive inside of us.
This is why those born of God can never lose being saved.
There is the old man and there is the NEW MAN, and for those born of God, God's breathed words says v10 and 11, that they have cast off the old man and put on the NEW MAN, created in the image of God who created him. See this NEW MAN that God created is destined for glorification just as Romans 8:30 tells us.

Colossians 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Carnality but Christ
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

You are grasping at straws here. Nowhere does this above passage connect with the bottom verses in saying that a believer can sin and still be saved. It doesn't say that. Verse 1 sets the condition. It says.... IF.... IF you were raised with Christ then you died and your life is hidden in Christ.

Let me ask you a question. Can your life be hidden in Christ and yet you can also remain in sin?

Well, according to 1 John 2:3-4 this is not the case.

For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Not sure why you highlighted this passage helps you. Verse 7 says we used to walk in these types of sins in our old life. Paul is telling them to put away their current sins. Verses 1-4 is not saying that these individuals who are rebelling are hid in Christ. Paul is talking proactively about how IF they were raised they are to set their minds on the things from above.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

The Message Bible says this,

"It wasn’t long ago that you were doing all that stuff and not knowing any better. But you know better now, so make sure it’s all gone for good: bad temper, irritability, meanness, profanity, dirty talk." (Colossians 3:7-8).

In other words, these believers know better now then to sin because these types of sins were a part of their old life. Verses 1-4 talk about how when they first came to Christ. But now things are different. Paul tells these believers to mortify their evil deeds? Why? Because the wrath of God abides upon all the children of disobedience. Believers can become children of disobedience if they desire to be. Their free will is still intact to obey God or not to obey God.

Also, Romans 6 says this,

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:12-14).

Okay. Stop right here. Sin shall not have dominon over you. This means one is not a slave to sin. For Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin.

Also, Paul continues to say in Romans 6,

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Romans 6:15-18).

We become what? We become servants or slaves to righteousness.
For Paul says you are servants to whom ye obey whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
Two contrasting kingdoms being described here.
One is God's Kingdom and the other is Satan's kingdom.

Paul's teaching is clear, we have put on the new man. And so then we are no longer to do the deeds of the old man, see that just does not fit the application anymore does it!

Those who persist in doing the deeds of the old man, no conviction in their walk, well they are not the NEW MAN are they, they are reprobate.

It only takes one sin or an admittance that you will forever do evil (even a little) in order to be evil or wrong in God's eyes. For do you think Adam could have told God that he was going to bite of the wrong tree ahead of time? Denying that one can stop sinning in this life is allowing for sin and evil to reign over their life and it is no different than the one who is not convicted of their sin in any way. For both individuals have to ignore evil or sin in some way.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean, lets say folks here hypothetically convince me of denying that I cannot stop sinning in this life (Which is never going to happen). What does it profit? For me, it sounds like giving into sin (When I know that the Bible tells me that I can overcome sin). However, let's say I am right and you are wrong. Do you think God would be happy with you in promoting a doctrine that would allow a believer to think they can sin a little in the future the rest of their life (When they do not have to)?

For if I am wrong, I would simply end up living a holy and righteous life and giving glory to God for all the good done in my life.
So there would be no loss on my part in believing as I do.
But if you are wrong, then you have everything to lose, though.


....

 

[Albion]

If you think a believer can hold to the idea that they can and still be saved in this life then the logical conclusion is that God has to agree with your way of thinking in order for your way to be correct. Unless of course you are not in line with God's way of thinking. For we are to be ye holy as God is holy. Believing that you will forever abide in your sin in this life is admittance to doing evil at some point in the future (When the Bible says you do not have to do evil).

What I said was, "But no one is saying that God agrees with anyone's sin."

...and no one does.

Sinless Perfection comes from the Bible.

That's it? No chapter or verse?

And I provided verses for you to show that it is taught in the Holy Scriptures.

No, you didn't. That's because you cannot. I don't say that in order to play some cat and mouse game with you, but the Bible doesn't teach this, even if you imagine that it does.

 

[Winken]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

Nonsense.

G R A C E: Amazing, forever.

It is not a license to sin. It is a receipt. On the balance due line it says o.oo. It is initialized: "PIF." Paid in Full. No other initials can match that. Believe it, receive it, be blessed.

Grace IS.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I said was, "But no one is saying that God agrees with anyone's sin."

...and no one does.

You don't have to say God agrees with your sin. Merely believing that one can sin and still be saved is saying the same thing. For it seems awfully convenient that God just happens to stop a believer from sinning after they die. Why does He not help them to stop sinning in this life? And do not give me the excuse that it is your body of sin. God is much more powerful than any body of sin. God can win the victory for any believer today in overcoming their sin.

That's it? No chapter or verse?

I already provided verses that support the Biblical Teaching of Sinless Perfectionism.
Your denial of such verses does not change the truth of them.

No, you didn't. That's because you cannot. I don't say that in order to play some cat and mouse game with you, but the Bible doesn't teach this, even if you imagine that it does.

Please explain the true meaning of what you think the verses I brought forth have said.
To me, they are very clear in what they say.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nonsense.

G R A C E: Amazing, forever.

It is not a license to sin. It is a receipt. On the balance due line it says o.oo. It is initialized: "PIF." Paid in Full. No other initials can match that. Believe it, receive it, be blessed.

Grace IS.

But when you tell people that their is no way they can be separated from God because of their sin, then you are giving people a license to sin because it is human nature to do that which is wrong (Unless of course they submit to God and His good ways out of having a healthy fear of the Lord - Which is the beginning of the wisdom). But in your view, you technically cannot say you agree with verses like: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" because there is no fear of God in any way within your belief. For you believe the word "fear" means "respect" or something like that. But then you would also have to erase the meaning of the word "tremble", too (Which goes along with fear).


...

 

[Albion]

You don't have to say God agrees with your sin.

No one does say that.

Merely believing that one can sin and still be saved is saying the same thing.

No, that's the Gospel, and it's not the same thing at all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No one does say that.

Then how can God (Who is holy) let you get away with saying that you will never stop sinning in this life?

Merely believing that one can sin and still be saved is saying the same thing.

No, that's the Gospel, and it's not the same thing at all.

I am sorry. That is just sick to even say that. Such a thing is not the gospel at all, dear sir. The gospel is not a sin and still be saved type doctrine or belief. Again, if such were the gospel, then God would have to agree with such a gospel, no?

Your belief is not only a moral contradiction but it is a contradiction in terms of God endorsing it, as well. For you say that God cannot condone or agree with a person's sin, and yet somehow that the gospel is a sin and still be saved type doctrine.

Granted, I am not talking about how a new convert (who used to be a sinner) who comes to the faith the first time and I am also not talking about a believer who honestly struggles with sin (and confesses and forsakes that sin with God's help) on their road to recovery to overcoming sin, either. For God can save a person if they have sinned (obviously). God merely cannot save a person who has the mind set that they will do some kind of evil in the future or who believes that they can die in unrepenant sin that leads unto spiritual death with the thinking they are still saved.

The difference between the two is that one person is expressing Godly sorrow over their sin and they are desiring to never sin again (Whereby they would seek to overcome their sin with God's help) and the other is merely making excuses for sin to remain in their life while they think they have God in their life, too. But God cannot be in a person's life who is in agreement with doing some kind of future evil and or if they are doing evil. Why? Because God is Holy and righteous.


...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Romans 7:22-23 ESV)

No unregenerate person delights on God's law. Paul is speaking about the life of a believer. He is addressing our relationship to the law after conversion.