The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[sdowney717]

Also, the majority of versions of Once Saved Always Saved are a license to sin. How so? Because when you say you are going to sin in the future and you are still saved, that is a license to sin. That would be like a murderer claiming he can murder again at some point in the future and still be right with God. That would be like a man who abuses children saying he can do so again in the future and be right with God. It is utter non-sense to suggest otherwise. God will not condone a believer's willful intentions to do evil at some point in the future. God cannot agree with this type of thinking on a person's part because it is sinful. Even being an unprofitable servant for God is horribly sinful, as well. How so? Because if you are not serving God, then you are serving another kingdom by your actions. For actions are merely what flows from one's belief or faith showing that faith to be true and real.

Scripture says,

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"
(Titus 1:16).

Scripture also says,
"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14).


....

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

v16 also confirms our eternal salvation. Those whom God has chosen for salvation have it eternally and also eternal consolation- good hope, and all of this is by grace.

 

[-57]

I find it difficult to believe the ....chosen by God....maintained by works gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

v16 also confirms our eternal salvation. Those whom God has chosen for salvation have it eternally and also eternal consolation- good hope, and all of this is by grace.

But nowhere does this say a believer can sin and still be saved, though.

Also, this verse does not support Calvinism, either. Even if you wanted this verse to say God is choosing select individuals for salvation, God would be selecting them based on knowing their free will choice in accepting Him ahead of time. God does not force some to believe and force others to not believe.


....

 

[-57]

Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,...and so on


Paul says you're wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).
Are you unaware of the difference between them?...

It was be quite helpful if you could provide Scripture that specfies which sins do and which sins don't lead to death, which you believe means eternal death. Do you have any such list?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I said;
"Please actually READ post #228 before responding. I NEVER said anything about saying sorry. That's pitiful. And 1 Jn 1:9 isn't about saying sorry either. Maybe you haven't read that verse.

Your comments reveal just how poorly you understand the posts of others."

There is no need to be insulting and rude.

Could you please point out what was insulting and rude in what I said? My comments were based SOLELY on your responses to what I posted. All you've done is either misread, misunderstand, or simply apply some fantasy straw man of what you think I believe.

Truth is never an insult nor rude. It may be painful, of course. An insult is to call one a derogatory name. And there is a difference between being rude and being blunt. They aren't the same.

Anyways, 1 John 1:9 involves Godly sorrow.

Then please exegete the verse to prove your claim, because I haven't seen any sense of Godly sorrow in that verse.

For no true believer who confesses their sins to God does not feel remorse or not have a desire to express how they are sorry to God over the type of sin that they committed.

OK, nice sentiment, but can you back up your claim with exegesis.

For if a man cheats on his wife, and if he desires to have any hope in repairing that relationship, he will admit his sin and he will have to also feel remorse that he had done wrong towards her. He will also apologize to her, as well.

But we're talking about God and HIS rules. Not what you think should be done. God tells us to confess our sins. Don't add what the Scriptures don't.

 

[-57]

Points to ponder...
James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As for 1 John 1:8 being a warning against those who think sin does not exist for them on some level (Like the Eternal Security Proponent):

Well, 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

I have no idea how one can think this verse supports their claim. It's real clear; the believer who sins shows that disobedience proves that the believer doesn't have intimate fellowship with God.

Not keeping God's commandments or laws is sin.

No one disagrees with this.

[QUTOE] So this person is denying in keeping God's Commandments (Which is sin). So this person is denying sin in their life because they are denying the reality of keeping God's Commandments. For 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the law." A law is a commandment. So 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 are saying the same thing.[/QUOTE]
OK. And both verses MEAN that no one will ever attain sinless perfection in this life.

It is a warning to those who think that sin does not exist for them in some way (When they do sin).

Yet you think that you will achieve a state of sinless perfection (that sin does not exist). You have been self deceived and the truth is not in you.

When you think you have attained that state, you will have fulfilled both 1 Jn 1:8 and 2:4.

For the solution for being forgiven of sin is to confess one's sins (1 John 1:9). But if someone says confessing of sin is not necessary in order to be forgiven (saved), then they are denying both 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:8.

John's entire epistle was for believer only. So 1 Jn 1:9 cannot ever be applied to any unbeliever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But nowhere does this say a believer can sin and still be saved, though.

The issue is about where Scripture says that if a believer sins, they lose salvation. You haven't shown any.

 

[-57]

But nowhere does this say a believer can sin and still be saved, though.


....

If a believer sins...then loses salvation...then NOBODY is saved. What kind of theology is this?

It seems to be reverse universalism.

 

[Albion]

Then how can God (Who is holy) let you get away with saying that you will never stop sinning in this life?

The blood of Christ, Jason.

But "saying that you will never stop sinning" is NOT something that you will hear anyone saying. It's your strawman.

That kind of "I don't have to change anything 'cause I have a free pass" attitude is not possible with a saved person.

And it's not what I was referring to.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why on Earth are people willing to take a gamble with their souls on an interpretation of Scripture for some form of comforting grace that covers their willful rebellion against God?....

Because they do not want to be bewitched by you and fall under the same curse that you are under.

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?.....................For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”" Galatians 3:3-5 and 10-13
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" Romans 2:14

The Romans verse is for anyone who tries to say that the Galatians passage only applies to those who were under the Jewish law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The blood of Christ, Jason.

But "saying that you will never stop sinning" is NOT something that you will hear anyone saying. It's your strawman.

That kind of "I don't have to change anything 'cause I have a free pass" attitude is not possible with a saved person.

And it's not what I was referring to.

Jesus said to the man he healed to, "go and sin no more unless a worse thing comes upon you."

So if this man sins again, a worse thing will come upon him, Why would Jesus want a worse thing to come upon this man if he told him to do something that was impossible to do?


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because they do not want to be bewitched by you and fall under the same curse that you are under.

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?.....................For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”" Galatians 3:3-5 and 10-13
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" Romans 2:14

The Romans verse is for anyone who tries to say that the Galatians passage only applies to those who were under the Jewish law.

Bewitched to do what exactly? To go back to the Old Law or to obey God under the New Covenant? Well, Paul was referencing circumicsion of going back to the Old Law and he was not talking about all law whatsoever (i.e. the Commands in the New Testament). Just do a keyword search for the word "circumcise" or the word "circumcised" at Blue Letter Bible.

Also, Romans 2:14 works against you and not for you. The Gentiles doing that which is natural in the law lets the believer know that they are without excuse in ignoring God's laws with a sin and still be saved doctrine.

Read the surrounding verses for Romans 2. The context is talking about the Law of Moses. It is not talking about the Commands given to us from our Lord Jesus Christ and from His followers.

Remember, Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The blood of Christ, Jason.

What are the conditions for the blood to be applied so as to cleanse you from all sin?
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
So there is a condtion for the blood to be applied to your life.

But "saying that you will never stop sinning" is NOT something that you will hear anyone saying. It's your strawman.
That kind of "I don't have to change anything 'cause I have a free pass" attitude is not possible with a saved person.

And it's not what I was referring to.

That's not exactly true. I have talked with people both online and in person have admitted that they can sin openly and die in that sin and be saved. I have even heard someone admit that they can mow down a crowd with a machine gun and they are still saved in that moment of doing so. So you would be wrong. There are people out there that belief this way and they hold to the view called: "Once Saved Always Saved." Your version of OSAS may sound completely different to you, but it really isn't. They are the same thing because in your view of OSAS, you are saying that you will forever remain in some kind of sin the rest of your life. But that is a declaration of evil on your part, though; And God cannot agree with that type of thinking because it is sinful. A person has to renounce sin and fight against sin and believe they can overcome it with the Lord's help. God does not want us to be a conquered people who is enslaved to their sin.


...

 

[Rick Otto]

If a believer sins...then loses salvation...then NOBODY is saved. What kind of theology is this?

It seems to be reverse universalism.

If salvation can be lost, it wasn't salvation to begin with, it was simply probation, and probation is about works, not grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If salvation can be lost, it wasn't salvation to begin with, it was simply probation, and probation is about works, not grace.

So if Rick saves his best friend from drowning at sea, then Rick really did not save his best friend then? Does Rick's best friend having his hand out so as to grab Rick's hand to save him negate the fact that Rick saved his friend? Also, I believe God does the work in the believer so the saint cannot take the credit for any good done in their life. It is God who ultimately works in a believer's life when they submit to Him.

For what is the alternative?
A sin and still be saved doctrine?
That sure doesn't sound like it is of God.


....

 

[jimmyjimmy]

when they submit to Him

This is what you make a work, Jason: your submission, dedication, commitment, etc.

Faith is trusting in God's promise. It's His faithfulness that we cling to, not our ability to do anything, including submit, to Him.

You are still relying on your effort, according to your own words.

 

[Rick Otto]

So if Rick saves his best friend from drowning at sea, then Rick really did not save his best friend then? Does Rick's best friend having his hand out so as to grab Rick's hand to save him negate the fact that Rick saved his friend? Also, I believe God does the work in the believer so the saint cannot take the credit for any good done in their life. It is God who ultimately works in a believer's life when they submit to Him.


....

Rick is not God, the sea is not damnation.
You are trying to violate context because correct context is a hostile environment for your self serving definitions.

You cannot directly address the simplicity of your failed definition, so you use this flawed analogy to get out of the salvation context, and into the probation definition.

You equate probation with salvation. You cannot legitimately deny that outright.
You can employ euphemism like "initial salvation", some fall for that, but you're peddling works, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Albion]

What are the conditions for the blood to be applied so as to cleanse you from all sin?
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
So there is a condtion for the blood to be applied to your life.

It's Faith, Jason.

We cannot earn God's favor. If that were possible, there would have been no need for the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

That's not exactly true. I have talked with people both online and in person have admitted that they can sin openly and die in that sin and be saved.

I am almost positive that you've misunderstood them. I can see it in the way you never "get" what we've explained to you here again and again.

There are people out there that belief this way and they hold to the view called: "Once Saved Always Saved." Your version of OSAS may sound completely different to you, but it really isn't. They are the same thing because in your view of OSAS, you are saying that you will forever remain in some kind of sin the rest of your life.

Those who believe in OSAS do not believe that we have a free pass for sinning once we have a claim on Faith. What you say here only verifies what I said in the above paragraph about my conclusion.