The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[FreeGrace2]

But

But nothing. Quit changing the subject, to avoid having to deal with my points. The point of Rom 8:38,39 is that there is NOTHING in the present or future that can separate us from the love of Christ. Clearly a statement aboua eternal security.

iow, there is NOTHING in my or your future that will separate us from Christ's love. How is that not eternal security? You've never explained why or how the verses I provide don't teach eternal security.

All we get from your posts is your opinion and disagreement. That is not refutation.

Paul does mentions several times to us the reader that we are not to be deceived that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Why don't you actually cite whatever verse you quote? Then let's examine what it really says and the context in which it's said.

For Paul lists several sins that will cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5, Ephesians 5, and Colossians 3. John also lists these same sins and says that these types of individuals will face the Second Death (also known as the Lake of Fire) (Revelation 21:8).
....

Well, you're wrong again. Of those 3 parallel passages, Eph 5:5 says that such a one will have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

Therefore, to "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

The 3 passages teach that believers who live disobediently and sinfully will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. iow, no reward IN the kingdom.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So it would seem. This may account for why he won't address what we've said but talks instead about what unknown people are supposed to have done or else demands that we answer his questions about hypothetical situations as a condition of him replying to our explanations concerning sin, freewill, and etc.

Where did I ever say that I still live a lifestyle of sin? Where did I ever say that I agree with the thinking that one can sin and still be saved? You are suggesting that my life is the standard for God's Word. Did Noah look to the outside world to see if he could be a preacher of righteousness? Could Noah be a preacher of righteousness and yet also live unrighteously? Would that not make him a hypocrite?

Are you saying that all believers are to tell others to live holy and yet they are not living holy themselves?

God is concerned about how we are living and behaving in the moment. God is also concerned about where we are headed, too. If we believe we can stop sinning and overcome our sin, and have faith in that, then God will help us to do that because Jesus said with God all things are possible. But you do not believe that all things are possible with God. You believe that the saints are a conquered people to sin. I don't believe that. I believe the Lord is good and He will sanctify His people and make them to walk as He had walked upon this Earth.


....

 

[FreeGrace2]

I mean, just stop and think a moment.....

I ask the same of you.

Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And we know exactly what he meant by "God's gifts" because he previously described 3 of them in the same epistle.
1:11 spiritual gifts
5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

Now, the question for you…do you believe the Word of God about God's gifts, which include justifiation and eternal life or not?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But nothing. Quit changing the subject, to avoid having to deal with my points. The point of Rom 8:38,39 is that there is NOTHING in the present or future that can separate us from the love of Christ. Clearly a statement aboua eternal security.

iow, there is NOTHING in my or your future that will separate us from Christ's love. How is that not eternal security? You've never explained why or how the verses I provide don't teach eternal security.

All we get from your posts is your opinion and disagreement. That is not refutation.


Why don't you actually cite whatever verse you quote? Then let's examine what it really says and the context in which it's said.


Well, you're wrong again. Of those 3 parallel passages, Eph 5:5 says that such a one will have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

Therefore, to "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

The 3 passages teach that believers who live disobediently and sinfully will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. iow, no reward IN the kingdom.

First of all, I have dealt with your false interpretation with Romans 8. You are now falsely claiming I have not addressed your wrong interpretation on it. You are also falsely claiming that I have not cited any passages within this thread here. Which is another lie. Also, my quote of my point in Scripture with the mention of the chapters should lead you to the verses I was referencing. That is not a denial of Scripture. Oh, and Paul is not talking about a loss of rewards in those passages. He says in Colossians 3, that the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience for the same type of sins he lists elsewhere in regards to not inheriting the Kingdom of God. One cannot be saved and not inherit the Kingdom of God. Inheriting the Kingdom of God is to share and partake of living with Christ and His Kingdom. For the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness.

Anyways, you are falsely accusing me at this point (Which I do not appreciate). So I think it is best you stop with the personal attacks or I will ignore your posts.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I ask the same of you.

Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And we know exactly what he meant by "God's gifts" because he previously described 3 of them in the same epistle.
1:11 spiritual gifts
5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

Now, the question for you…do you believe the Word of God about God's gifts, which include justifiation and eternal life or not?

I already answered Romans 11:29 to you before. Paul is referencing these words in Romans 11:29 towards unsaved Israel. Does that mean that the Jews are saved even if they reject Jesus Christ? No. Of course not. The gifts and calling of God are unchangeable even if the God's people (Known as the Jews) reject His plan of salvation. So that verse cannot be used to support your viewpoint here.


....

 

[Albion]

Where did I ever say that I still live a lifestyle of sin?

I was commenting on FreeGrace2's post where it was said that, "You've admitted that you haven't yet achieved your anticipated sinless perfection, so that means you still sin." If there's any misunderstanding on anyone's part, you can settle it by telling us either that you have achieved a permanent state of sinlessness or else that you do continue to sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was commenting on FreeGrace2's post where it was said that, "You've admitted that you haven't yet achieved your anticipated sinless perfection, so that means you still sin."

Yes, I am aware of that. My reply was an answer to both your replies.

Anyways, I do not believe that I have failed. I am standing firm in God's righteousness even now as we speak; And nowhere have I given up hope that I will overcome sin today. Nowhere do I feel that I am defeated by sin. I believe that today is the day that such a thing is possible and it will remain that way until I die. I have hope and trust in God every day in what His Word says. So I will not admit that I have failed as you suggest. My trust in my God and my faith in His Word goes beyond that. For the Bible clearly teaches that one can overcome sin. It is a matter of having faith and in trusting in God that such a thing is possible. I believe. That is the first step. The question is: Why don't you believe God wants a believer stop sinning in this life? Does God have the power to stop a believer in sinning in this life? Why would God not want a believer to stop sinning in this life (If He has the power to help them to stop sinning after they die)? Does not God always want His people to live holy and righteous?


....

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
[originally When my eye-strings break in death]
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
[originally When my eye-strings break in death]
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

Nice sounding poem, but it is in no way what the Bible says, though.


...

 

[Albion]

Yes, I am aware of that. My reply was an answer to both your replies.

Anyways, I do not believe that I have failed. I am standing firm in God's righteousness even now as we speak; And nowhere have I give up hope that I will overcome sin. I believe that today is the day that such a thing is possible and it will remain that way until I die. I have hope and trust in God every day in what His Word says. So I will not admit that I have failed as you suggest.

I never suggested that you "failed." I never even used the word. I asked if you are sinless or not.

My trust in my God and my faith in His Word goes beyond that. For the Bible clearly teaches that one can overcome sin. It is a matter of having faith and in trusting in God that such a thing is possible. I believe. That is the first step.

I don't believe that it does, if by "overcome" you mean "achieve a state of sinlessness."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never suggested that you "failed." I never even used the word. I asked if you are sinless or not.

I am not committing sin that leads unto spiritual death now. So no.

I don't believe that it does, if by "overcome" you mean "achieve a state of sinlessness."

I have the hope that today is the day that I will forever be in a state of righteousness because I believe God can help me overcome sin at any moment (Which I believe is even today). The timing on that is based on God and His working in my life. I cannot see the future. Granted, God does not force people to stop sinning, but God does reward those who trust in His Word by faith and keep seeking after Him in righteousness (According to His Word). So I believe that today may be the day I may have acheived in walking in perfection with Him. I have to believe that. Because His Word gives me no choice otherwise. For with God all things are possible.


....

 

[Albion]

I am not committing sin that leads unto spiritual death now. So no.

This will probably offend you, but the church that would seem to agree with you is the Roman Catholic Church, which is known for dividing sin into venial and mortal and believing that the former can be "paid for" in Purgatory.

eAnyway, I get that you do sin, but not ones that would cost you your salvation, and that you believe that a state of sinlessness can be achieved in this life. Like it or not, this is not a very common view among Christians

 

[FreeGrace2]

First of all, I have dealt with your false interpretation with Romans 8. You are now falsely claiming I have not addressed your wrong interpretation on it.

Your explanation was false and ignored the clear point that there is NOTHING in our future that can or will separate us from the love of Christ.

You are also falsely claiming that I have not cited any passages within this thread here. Which is another lie.

Every verse and passage you've posted has been refuted and properly explained by me. None of them support your views.

Also, my quote of my point in Scripture with the mention of the chapters should lead you to the verses I was referencing. That is not a denial of Scripture. Oh, and Paul is not talking about a loss of rewards in those passages.

Oh, yes he was.

One cannot be saved and not inherit the Kingdom of God.

This is just an opinion. One that is not supported by Scripture.

Inheriting the Kingdom of God is to share and partake of living with Christ and His Kingdom.

Correct. To share and partake speaks of fellowship, once again. Not getting or staying saved.

Anyways, you are falsely accusing me at this point (Which I do not appreciate). So I think it is best you stop with the personal attacks or I will ignore your posts.....

This shows that you do not know the difference between personal attacks and refutation of your points. I have refuted your points.

A personal attack is something that someone says about lack of intelligence, or calling one names, like "jerk", "idiot", or the like. I've never done any of those.

But, bottom line is clear: eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable. This cannot be refuted. Only denied.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This will probably offend you, but the church that would seem to agree with you is the Roman Catholic Church, which is known for dividing sin into venial and mortal and believing that the former can be "paid for" in Purgatory.

Well, I am not offended. First, I believe you are not seeing the Bible for what it plainly says. Second, you simply do not understand what I believe according to the Scriptures is all, as well. For I do not agree with the Catholic Church in any way in regards to Soteriology or in the way they worship God. Catholics believe sacred tradition to be on par with the Word of God and it is a part of their Soteriology. I do not agree with their added extra traditions that are not mentioned in Scripture (Which goes against Sola Scriptura of which they deny). For it is dangerous for a Catholic to place 100% trust in Jesus Christ alone and with having 0% trust in Mary and the Sacraments. I also do not believe there is a purgatory. But the Catholic church did not get the teaching of mortal versus venial sins from their own imaginations or traditions, though. That is something that comes directly from Scripture itself that the Protestant Church (that believes in OSAS) denies. For just because the Catholic Church believes in the Trinity does not mean that the Trinity is not true. Truth is determined by the Word of God. Anyways, 1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins that do not lead unto death and there are sins that do lead unto death. If you were to take a note pad and write down every time John had talked about life and death or light and darkness in his epistle, you would see that he was talking about contrasting spiritual life with spiritual death. For John was not concerned with a believer's physical life versus his physical death as a part of God's plan of salvation. In fact, it is an honor in God's Word for a believer to suffer and die for their faith. So staying alive physically is not our ultimate focus in our walk with God. Although, our body is the temple for our Lord, the primary focus of God and His Word is about our spiritual status with God.

What is an example of a sin that does not lead unto spiritual death?
Well, 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law."
Laws are Commandments.
We are commanded in Scripture to be baptized.
But Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) (Also see 2 Corinthians 7:1 in regards to the related words "filth of the flesh" being in reference to sin).
In other words, if a believer disobeys the command to be baptized, and they die, they will not be condemned for abiding in such a sin because it is a command that does not have any after-death consequences. Such a sin in this person's case is not a sin that leads unto death (i.e. spiritual death and not physical death).

But at the end of Romans 1, Paul lists certain sins for individuals whereby if they commit them, they are worthy of death. John says the same thing in Revelation 21:8. He mentions a certain list of sins and essentially says that those who do those types of sins will face the "second death" (Which is also known as the Lake of Fire). These sins can cause spiritual death for a person (if not confessed or forsaken - See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, and Proverbs 28:13); Such sins are murder, theft, fornication, drunkenness, hate, lying, and idolatry, etc. These are sins that lead unto spiritual death (and not physical death) (See Romans 1, Ephesians 5, Galatians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, Colossians 3, and Revelation 21).

Even Jesus said himself there is a.... "GREATER SIN." Jesus also mentions how there is an unforgivable sin (Which is speaking bad words (i.e. blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost). So not all sin is the same (As you would desire for it to be).

Anyway, I get that you do sin, but not ones that would cost you your salvation, and that you believe that a state of sinlessness can be achieved in this life. Like it or not, this is not a very common view among Christians

Scripture says, narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that find it. The popular belief in churches today is OSAS (Which is a sin and still be saved doctrine on some level). The popular belief in churches today is in denying that with God not all things are possible because they do not believe God can help a believer to stop sinning in this life.


....

 

[FreeGrace2]

I already answered Romans 11:29 to you before. Paul is referencing these words in Romans 11:29 towards unsaved Israel.

Wrong. He mentions NO GIFTS to unsaved Israel. And you haven't shown any. The gifts of 11:29 that are irrevocable are the gifts that he described previously in his epistle.

Does that mean that the Jews are saved even if they reject Jesus Christ? No. Of course not.

This is just a total misunderstanding of what "irrevocable" means. No one is saved apart from faith in Christ. We all know that. The gift is what one HAS, not what one doesn't have. The gift is eternal life. And once given, it is irrevocable. Your spin is just amazing.

The gifts and calling of God are unchangeable even if the God's people (Known as the Jews) reject His plan of salvation.

You're going to have to prove that is what the verse says through grammar and syntax, because that surely NOT the way it easily reads.

What Paul was saying is that those who have received the gift of eternal life can know that the gift is irrevocable.

So that verse cannot be used to support your viewpoint here.....

Again, just another opinion. In fact, that verse directly addresses the issue of eternal security.

 

[-57]

These verses are not talking about how one can sin and still be saved. It does not say that. Please show me specifically in that passage where a beleiver can sin and still be saved. You are making large leaps of assumptions upon what that passage is actually saying.



....

Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,...and so on

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, I am aware of that. My reply was an answer to both your replies.

Anyways, I do not believe that I have failed.

How can you say you've not failed when you've admitted that you still sin? Isn't that failure given your claim that one cannot sin and still be saved? Your posts continue to be contradictory.

I am standing firm in God's righteousness even now as we speak;

All believers have been credited or imputed with Christ's perfect righteousness. We all claim that.

And nowhere have I given up hope that I will overcome sin today. Nowhere do I feel that I am defeated by sin. I believe that today is the day that such a thing is possible and it will remain that way until I die.

None of this "wish list" saves anyone, nor does it maintain anyone's salvation. The gift of eternal life is irrevocable. If you've received that gift through faith in Christ, it is irrevocable.

I have hope and trust in God every day in what His Word says.

No, this is untrue. You don't believe that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. You believe that it is revocable if one sins.

So I will not admit that I have failed as you suggest.

Since you've admitted that you still sin, you HAVE FAILED according to your own views.

My trust in my God and my faith in His Word goes beyond that.

You haven't trusted in His claim that eternal life is an irrevocable gift.

For the Bible clearly teaches that one can overcome sin.

What the Bible does NOT teach is that one can or will achieve sinless perfection. It does teach that believers chose to sin or not. Romans 6. And every time you still sin, you've chosen to do that. Like the rest of us.

We will achieve perfection (sinlessness) ONLY WHEN we receive our resurrection bodies. Not before. That's when we will be "like Him". 1 Jn 3:2

Jesus was sinless. That's what we will be WHEN we receive our recurrection bodies.

It is a matter of having faith and in trusting in God that such a thing is possible. I believe. That is the first step.

You're free to believe whatever your heart desires. But I believe the Bible: eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

The question is: Why don't you believe God wants a believer stop sinning in this life?

I've already addressed this, but you have either forgotten it or ignored it. The best we will do is to sin less. We WON'T be sinless UNTIL we receive our resurrection bodies.

Does God have the power to stop a believer in sinning in this life?

Sure. But He doesn't take over our wills and cause us to stop. If that were true, no believer would ever sin again. Where do you see that happening? Surely not even in your own life.

Why would God not want a believer to stop sinning in this life (If He has the power to help them to stop sinning after they die)?

After we die physically, we are in eternity. There is no indication that we retain our sin nature, which is always attached to our physical bodies.

Does not God always want His people to live holy and righteous?....

Yes. But that does not negate eternal security, nor support your claim of sinless perfection.

As long as you retain your physical body (of corruption) you will sin. Period. To think otherwise is to ignore or deny Scripture.[/QUOTE]

 

[Albion]

Well, I am not offended. I believe you are not seeing the Bible for what it plainly says. Also, you simply do not understand what I believe according to the Scriptures is all, as well.

I think I do understand it pretty well now, but Do-it-Yourself theology often takes a little while to get straight, you know?

Anyway, I just thought that your previously stated animosity towards the Roman Catholic Church would carry over to this issue of venial and mortal sins which--despite what you said--is not to be found in Scripture or believed by other denominations.

That said, however, I'm now wondering what you think of the following:
If lesser sins do not threaten one's salvation are they just "freebies" and don't have any consequences in eternity?

Also, where does the idea come from that believers can attain to permanent sinlessness in this life?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong. He mentions NO GIFTS to unsaved Israel. And you haven't shown any. The gifts of 11:29 that are irrevocable are the gifts that he described previously in his epistle.

No. Read the context. Paul is clearly referencing unsaved Israel in verse 29.

28 "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved for the sake of their ancestors.
29 For God’s gifts and calling never change.
30 For just as you disobeyed God in the past but now have received his mercy because of their disobedience, "
(Romans 11:28-30)
(International Standard Version).​

This means that Paul is referencing unsaved Israel in regards to God's gifts and calling. Also, it is true that God gifts can never change. But the gifts AND CALLING of God cannot be undone or changed is based on certain conditions. Or do you believe there are no conditions for a person in coming to the faith? For is not the "calling" of God include certain conditions? Why are you thinking that the gift of God comes with no conditions, if the calling of God comes with certain conditions? Or do you believe in Universal Salvation?


...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Nice sounding poem, but it is in no way what the Bible says, though.


...

It's called, Rock of Ages, and it's a hymn sung and loved by millions, as reflecting the glory of Christ's salvation for sinners, but Jason disapproves. . . Let's rip it out of the hymnals.