The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[FreeGrace2]

If you think a believer can hold to the idea that they can and still be saved in this life then the logical conclusion is that God has to agree with your way of thinking in order for your way to be correct.

This is a highly ILLOGICAL claim on your part. You've been corrected numerous times, but it doesn't make any difference to your irrational views. Your problem is holding WRONG views about others who DON'T hold those views, and then try to debate them on those WRONG views.

That is nothing but a straw man tactic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But when you tell people that their is no way they can be separated from God because of their sin, then you are giving people a license to sin because...

Let's just stop with this nonsense about a license to sin. Being a human being with a nature TO sin doesn't require a license to sin.

That phrase is just nonsense at its fullest. It is meaningless. It is pandered by those who do not understand grace, or who just don't like grace.

But, we are saved by grace and we are kept by grace. Works plays NO PART in our salvation. Works DOES play a very important part in being blessed and rewarded by God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Romans 7:22-23 ESV)

No unregenerate person delights on God's law. Paul is speaking about the life of a believer. He is addressing our relationship to the law after conversion.

You are sadly mistaken. There are many Works based religions in existence today whereby it's proponents focus on trying to keep what they believe to be God's laws. Some of them are God's laws like "do not murder", and "do not steal", etc. and others are not in some cases. It would be silly to suggest that they are not happy in keeping what they believe to be God's laws. I have talked with many of them and they are very happy in keeping what they think are God's laws.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, the majority of versions of Once Saved Always Saved are a license to sin. How so? Because when you say you are going to sin in the future and you are still saved, that is a license to sin. That would be like a murderer claiming he can murder again at some point in the future and still be right with God. That would be like a man who abuses children saying he can do so again in the future and be right with God. It is utter non-sense to suggest otherwise. God will not condone a believer's willful intentions to do evil at some point in the future. God cannot agree with this type of thinking on a person's part because it is sinful. Even being an unprofitable servant for God is horribly sinful, as well. How so? Because if you are not serving God, then you are serving another kingdom by your actions. For actions are merely what flows from one's belief or faith showing that faith to be true and real.

Scripture says,

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"
(Titus 1:16).

Scripture also says,
"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14).


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[Bible Highlighter]

For you have to think that it took only one sin for man to be separated from God.

Why on Earth are people willing to take a gamble with their souls on an interpretation of Scripture for some form of comforting grace that covers their willful rebellion against God?

WARNING: - THE BELOW STATEMENTS ARE SPOKEN FROM A THIRD PERSON PERSPECTIVE AND IT NOT MAY OR MAY NOT BE DIRECTLY SPEAKING OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE. ​

Anyways, to answer the question above, people think they can sin on some level with the thinking they are still saved because they find such a version of grace to be comforting and because this person on some level likes their sin (even if they say they don't like to do it).
For in this belief, a person can serve two masters.
They can live for God and they can live for themselves or sin.
Yes, yes. This type of individual may not live sinful like an unbeliever and they may only stumble on occasion (And even feel remorseful over their sin), but they are still agreeing with sin as their master (Because they are admitting that they will always sin).
But having even one horrible sin that a believer likes to do on occasion over the rest of their life is enough to separate a person from God.
However, Jesus and his followers never pushed the idea that we can serve God and also ourselves and sin (And be in His good graces).
I am sorry. It just doesn't work like that. For if God allowed His people to think they would forever be slaves to their sin or by acknowledging they will sin in the future, they are not truly repenting of their sin and they are still living the life of that of an unbeliever (who can do good things and live morally for the most part in certain cases).


....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Also, the majority of versions of Once Saved Always Saved are a license to sin.

This tired diatribe is getting really old. And continues to be wrong.

How so? Because when you say you are going to sin in the future and you are still saved, that is a license to sin.

You may call it whatever you wish, but that doesn't make it so. Only in your own mind. No one needs a license, since we ALL have our sin nature still intact. And Paul admonishes believers to stop grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit, which is evidence of that sin nature.

Only when the believer is filled with the Spirit and walks by means of the Spirit will that believer NOT be in a state of sin. No other time.

Here's the problem with your view: if you should ever actually achieve the state of sinless perfection, THEN 1 Jn 1:8 WILL apply directly to you.

So your whole hope will only get you condemned by the Bible. How smart is that?

So, on the very day that you think you have "arrived" at sinless perfection, you will have deceived yourself and the truth will NOT be in you.

That is EXACTLY what 1 Jn 1:8 says. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

That would be like a murderer claiming he can murder again at some point in the future and still be right with God.

This is beyond ridiculous. No one thinks we are "right with God" when we sin. We ALL agree that we need cleansing from our sins because of 1 Jn 1:9. Please stop trying to ascribe these nutty ideas into our actual beliefs. If you want to play with your straw men, please go somewhere else.

That would be like a man who abuses children saying he can do so again in the future and be right with God.

We ALL believe that ALL sin is NOT ALRIGHT with God. Which is why we have the verse on confession of sin in 1 Jn 1:9; for cleansing and fellowship with God.

It is utter non-sense to suggest otherwise.

It is your claim and misunderstanding of our views that are utter nonsense.

God will not condone a believer's willful intentions to do evil at some point in the future.

Yes, that is correct. Which is why we have 1 Jn 1:9.

God cannot agree with this type of thinking on a person's part because it is sinful.

OK, please support this claim from Scripture. But I will tell you, there isn't any support from Scripture. Not ANY person in the Bible was described as having achieved sinless perfection. Sure, some are described as being righteous, or holy and blameless. But we know HOW one is declared righteous; through faith in Christ, per Rom 3-4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already addressed 1 John 1:8 with you before. This verse has to be read in context with 1 John 2:3-4. For they are primarily for the most part, saying the same thing.

Actually, it is ironic that the very verse you use to attack my belief in regards to Soteriology is a warning against what you believe (One Saved Always Saved - OSAS). For you believe you sin physically but that you don't sin spiritually because Jesus paid the price for all your sins: past, present, and future. So on a spiritual level you are saying you are without sin (which is a partial denial of 1 John 1:8). Another group who says, they have no sin spiritually are Christian Scientists. For they deny the very existence of sin.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This tired diatribe is getting really old. And continues to be wrong.


You may call it whatever you wish, but that doesn't make it so. Only in your own mind. No one needs a license, since we ALL have our sin nature still intact. And Paul admonishes believers to stop grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit, which is evidence of that sin nature.

Only when the believer is filled with the Spirit and walks by means of the Spirit will that believer NOT be in a state of sin. No other time.

Here's the problem with your view: if you should ever actually achieve the state of sinless perfection, THEN 1 Jn 1:8 WILL apply directly to you.

So your whole hope will only get you condemned by the Bible. How smart is that?

So, on the very day that you think you have "arrived" at sinless perfection, you will have deceived yourself and the truth will NOT be in you.

That is EXACTLY what 1 Jn 1:8 says. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.


This is beyond ridiculous. No one thinks we are "right with God" when we sin. We ALL agree that we need cleansing from our sins because of 1 Jn 1:9. Please stop trying to ascribe these nutty ideas into our actual beliefs. If you want to play with your straw men, please go somewhere else.


We ALL believe that ALL sin is NOT ALRIGHT with God. Which is why we have the verse on confession of sin in 1 Jn 1:9; for cleansing and fellowship with God.


It is your claim and misunderstanding of our views that are utter nonsense.


Yes, that is correct. Which is why we have 1 Jn 1:9.


OK, please support this claim from Scripture. But I will tell you, there isn't any support from Scripture. Not ANY person in the Bible was described as having achieved sinless perfection. Sure, some are described as being righteous, or holy and blameless. But we know HOW one is declared righteous; through faith in Christ, per Rom 3-4.

Nutty ideas, huh?

Does just saying your sorry with someone work if you keep doing evil against them? Especially if it is something that is really wrong?

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I already addressed 1 John 1:8 with you before. This verse has to be read in context with 1 John 2:3-4. For they are primarily for the most part, saying the same thing.

The verse is very clear. The very moment anyone thinks they have achieved sinless perfection, or as John wrote, "say they have no sin" they are condemned as having deceived themselves and the truth is NOT in them. So, good luck with your lofty plan.

WHEN you think you have achieved your plan, that's WHEN you'll be totally self deceived and have NO truth in you.

Actually, it is ironic that the very verse you use to attack my belief in regards to Soteriology is a warning against what you believe (One Saved Always Saved - OSAS).

1 Jn 1:8 doesn't even address eternal security, much less attack it.

The passages on eternal security are Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29 and 1 Thess 5:4-10.

And they do it in spades.

For you believe you sin physically but that you don't sin spiritually because Jesus paid the price for all your sins: past, present, and future.

Once again you've made the huge mistake of what you think I think. I REJECT the silly unbiblical notion of sinning physically vs spiritually.

Sin is sin. And God hates sin. All sin.

btw, I don't recall that you have defined what you mean by sinning spiritually vs sinning physically. Please advise.

So on a spiritual level you are saying you are without sin (which is a partial denial of 1 John 1:8).

I've NEVER made such a claim, or even thought. So, ONCE AGAIN, what you keep claiming about what others who disagree with you believe is totally WRONG. When are you going to pay attention to what we actually say? When did I ever say that I was without sin on this so-called spiritual level?

Another group who says, they have no sin spiritually are Christian Scientists. For they deny the very existence of sin....

I'm NOWHERE near that idiotic group.

What is clear is that you really have no idea what any of those who disagree with you believe. And you foolishly keep claiming things that aren't even close to the truth about what others think or believe.

Maybe that's because it's much easier to attack and criticize the nutty views of the Christian scientist cult than to actually deal with the real views of those on this forum.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nutty ideas, huh?

Does just saying your sorry with someone work if you keep doing evil against them?

Please actually READ post #228 before responding. I NEVER said anything about saying sorry. That's pitiful. And 1 Jn 1:9 isn't about saying sorry either. Maybe you haven't read that verse.

Especially if it is something that is really wrong? ...

Your comments reveal just how poorly you understand the posts of others.

 

[-57]

Look. You are not fooling anyone (who would be pure in heart). Anyone who has a moral compass or has a sense of right and wrong to them knows that making a declaration to do evil in the future at some point makes them evil. For a murderer is still a murderer if he declares that he will murder at some point in the future and he just cannot help it. It is no different with any other horrible sin that can separate a person from God.

....

What may be a simple lie is evil. In fact any sin is evil....and you sin, thusly have condemned yourself to hell with your theology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What may be a simple lie is evil. In fact any sin is evil....and you sin, thusly have condemned yourself to hell with your theology.

Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).
Are you unaware of the difference between them?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please actually READ post #228 before responding. I NEVER said anything about saying sorry. That's pitiful. And 1 Jn 1:9 isn't about saying sorry either. Maybe you haven't read that verse.

Your comments reveal just how poorly you understand the posts of others.

There is no need to be insulting and rude. Anyways, 1 John 1:9 involves Godly sorrow. For no true believer who confesses their sins to God does not feel remorse or not have a desire to express how they are sorry to God over the type of sin that they committed. For if a man cheats on his wife, and if he desires to have any hope in repairing that relationship, he will admit his sin and he will have to also feel remorse that he had done wrong towards her. He will also apologize to her, as well. This is all rolled into the ball of confessing one's sins. A person can do this before another person and they can also do this towards God, as well. The difference is that when God forgives a person, he is actually absolving their sin and saving them.

Paul says Godly sorrow leads to repentance.
Repentance is confessing one's sins that then leads to the fruits of repentance (i.e. a turning away from sin and in doing good).

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for 1 John 1:8 being a warning against those who think sin does not exist for them on some level (Like the Eternal Security Proponent):

Well, 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Not keeping God's commandments or laws is sin. So this person is denying in keeping God's Commandments (Which is sin). So this person is denying sin in their life because they are denying the reality of keeping God's Commandments. For 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the law." A law is a commandment. So 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 are saying the same thing. It is a warning to those who think that sin does not exist for them in some way (When they do sin). For the solution for being forgiven of sin is to confess one's sins (1 John 1:9). But if someone says confessing of sin is not necessary in order to be forgiven (saved), then they are denying both 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:8. Why are they denying these verses? Well, because they think sin does not exist for them on some level. This is true for both many (not all) Eternal Security Proponents and many Christian Scientists.


...

 

[Winken]

I have a friend who is a magnificent artist. His pencil sketches, drawings, are simply incredible. I'm going to ask him to draw two debaters with the words of one flying right over the head of the other, who responds out of sync. This may take a while....

 

[nobdysfool]

There is no need to be insulting and rude. Anyways, 1 John 1:9 involves Godly sorrow. For no true believer who confesses their sins to God does not feel remorse or not have a desire to express how they are sorry to God over the type of sin that they committed. For if a man cheats on his wife, and if he desires to have any hope in repairing that relationship, he will admit his sin and he will have to also feel remorse that he had done wrong towards her. He will also apologize to her, as well. This is all rolled into the ball of confessing one's sins. A person can do this before another person and they can also do this towards God, as well. The difference is that when God forgives a person, he is actually absolving their sin and saving them.

Paul says Godly sorrow leads to repentance.
Repentance is confessing one's sins that then leads to the fruits of repentance (i.e. a turning away from sin and in doing good)....

You are continually insulting and rude, and you clearly don't comprehend what we've been trying to get across to you over multiple threads in this forum. I think your intent has always been to "set us all straight", which is the wrong attitude to come into this forum with, because "you ain't all that, and a bag of chips, too." You have some seriously deformed theology, which you refuse to entertain any correction about. That amounts to being unteachable. That is not a good place for any believer to be.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have a friend who is a magnificent artist. His pencil sketches, drawings, are simply incredible. I'm going to ask him to draw two debaters with the words of one flying right over the head of the other, who responds out of sync. This may take a while....

Having an artist draw what you believe to be the facts of the events does not mean you are right. In fact, it would just show that you are insulting (Because that is what the drawing would represent - It would be an insult). What this will also show is that your argument is so weak that you are seeking to attack me instead of simply dealing with discussing the facts of Scripture.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are continually insulting and rude, and you clearly don't comprehend what we've been trying to get across to you over multiple threads in this forum. I think your intent has always been to "set us all straight", which is the wrong attitude to come into this forum with, because "you ain't all that, and a bag of chips, too." You have some seriously deformed theology, which you refuse to entertain any correction about. That amounts to being unteachable. That is not a good place for any believer to be.

First, I believe that to be a false accusation. Where did I insult or attack anyone here personally? Rude is defined as one showing to be impolite towards others. My attack against a false belief is my focus here and not the person. Please show me where I was being mean or impolite or rude with a person. Please take note that this would have to be a post whereby it specifically set out to attack a person here. It would also include any post that would have unnecessarily hateful words towards that person specifically, too. Second, you believe your view is the correct one, but yet you are not going about the right way of correction according to the Bible. Instead, you attack me personally and make false accusations against me without knowing who I am. For you are wrong that I have not admitted I was wrong on a verse before in times past openly on a forum. So I am willing to take correction by God if I know that I am wrong in an interpretation on God's Word. But I do not believe your belief on Soteriology is Biblical. For there is one thing I know under my teaching with God that is very clear. Eternal Security is not a teaching found in the Bible. So there is no chance you would be able to correct me on this point, my friend. For God has shown me so much over the years in regards to this topic.

Anyways, please stick to discussing the Scriptures and refrain from making it personal with me.
This thread is not about me, but it is about what Scripture says plainly.



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[-57]

Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).
Are you unaware of the difference between them?

...

Perhaps you can explain the meaning of the verse.

 

[-57]

For there is one thing I know under my teaching with God that is very clear. Eternal Security is not a teaching found in the Bible.


.....

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.