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I explained what verse 13 was talking about using the actual verses that surrounded it. Clearly the topic is salvation because it contrasts the faithful servant with being rewarded and the evil servant with having their portion amongst the hypocrites. Jesus did not favor those Pharisees in whom he called hypocrites. The Bible tells us a certain way to live. If one lives contrary to that and says to follow the Bible, they are being a hypocrite because they are not doing what the Bible actually says and they are telling others to follow a book that tells them to live righteously when they are not doing so themselves.
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I do not live in a lifestyle of habitual sin and nor do I make excuses so as to sin in the future with the thinking I will automatically be saved if I do sin. God cannot agree with a person's thinking that they will sin at some point in the future and they can just get away with that sin. God is Holy and righteous. Yes, God understands that people can honestly struggle with sin. But there comes a point where the believer will overcome the sin in their walk with God because Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil in a believer's life (And not just at the cross) (See 1 John 3:8). The best analogy I can give you is that of an alcholic who joins a drug program so as to become sober and free from his addiction to alchohol. If an alcoholic who joins a program to honestly become sober and free from alcohol stumbles on his road to recovery, he is not making an excuse so as to live a life of being drunk because he will in time overcome that sin. But if the alcoholic had an OSAS mind set going into the program, they would then think they could drink the rest of their lives on occasion and still claim they are sober and free from their addiction to alcohol. But we both know that if an alcoholic were to do that, he would only be deceiving himself.
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No one is without sin. Period. The point of the Gospel is that we can be forgiven.
I do not live in a lifestyle of habitual sin and nor do I make excuses so as to sin in the future with the thinking I will automatically be saved if I do sin.
Actually, it's found in v.38-39 of that chapter of that book.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
iow, the future is covered by the phrase "things to come". So, NO MATTER what occurs in the future, the one who has believed will not be separated from the love of Christ.
But, if these verses don't convince one that sinning will NOT result in loss of salvation, consider 1 Thess 5:4-10.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Analysis:
v.4 & 5 contrasts believers (sons of light and of day) with unbelievers, (of night or darkness).
v.6 is an admonition to NOT live as unbelievers (not sleep as others do) but to be alert and sober.
v.7 describes in general the lifestyles of unbelievers.
v.8 we are to live according to our saved state: be sober, having faith and love, and the confidence of salvation
v.9 tells us that God has NOT destined believers for wrath, but for salvation.
v.10 Paul explains that regardless of lifestyle (whether we are awake-living for Christ or asleep-living like unbelievers) we WILL LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM
This passage is clear; our lifestyle will NOT change our destiny for salvation.
Now, for those who reject eternal security, please explain EACH verse to show how my analysis is wrong.
Please illustrate your belief here by way of a real world example and to show me the goodness of your belief.That's encouraging. But neither are there people here arguing that you can sin at will and your salvation won't be in doubt.
It's somewhat of a red herring, therefore, to insist that you don't live in a lifestyle of habitual sin while making excuses with the thinking that you will automatically be saved nonetheless.
That is true.
Another point is that as chritians we will continue to sin. Does this give us license to sin? Of course not. I think that might be Jasons point.
The question I have for Jason is....do you try not to sin to "remain saved" or do you try not to sin to glorify God?
That is true.
Another point is that as chritians we will continue to sin. Does this give us license to sin? Of course not. I think that might be Jasons point.
The question I have for Jason is....do you try not to sin to "remain saved" or do you try not to sin to glorify God?
If a murder says he will only murder on occasion in the future does that mean he is no longer a murderer anymore?IMHO, you've summarized the respective POVs quite accurately there.
Real world example? Hmm. Look around you. No Christian, not even Mother Teresa, is or was without sin. Talking as though we become sinless upon conversion is a mistake.Please illustrate your belief here by way of a real world example and to show me the goodness of your belief.
Well then, it would be a good idea for you to get a better "appears" to work from. You're not actually commenting on what my belief "appears" to be but, on the contrary, what you would like to imagine that it is.Your belief appears from my perspective that you are making God to agree with you in the fact that you can sin at some point in the future and it will be okay with Him.
If a murder says he will only murder on occasion in the future does that mean he is no longer a murderer anymore?
Do you think the murderer who says they are no longer a murderer who murders only on occasion or who admits that they will murder at some point in the future is not condoning their act of murder by saying such a thing?
I am sorry. I just do not see where you are coming from.
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Real world example? Hmm. Look around you. No Christian, not even Mother Teresa, is or was without sin. Talking as though we become sinless upon conversion is a mistake.
So what about those who say they're believers but don't seem to show it--or worse, even insist that it doesn't matter? We judge them not to have been saved in the first place. That is the point of James' Epistle. All the chatter to the contrary or other twists or "hearsays" on this matter are leading us nowhere, so far as this discussion is concerned.
Alas, I am confident that you are correct to say you don't know where I (or we) are coming from.
Sure. Because there is NO sin that will separate the believer from Christ's love. None. So why would Paul mention any sin?First, nowhere is a believer's sin amongst that list.
I would ask the same of you.Please re-read the list of the things that cannot separate you from Christ.
What you've either ignored or just rejected is that the phrase "things present or things future" covers WHATEVER MAY OCCUR, which would obviously include the action of sinning. iow, anything that can happen WON'T separate the believer from the love of Christ.They are all EXTERNAL things and not INTERNAL things that you choose such as "sin." Sin is something YOU choose and it has nothing to do with what angels, or death or other external things can do to you so as to separate a believer from the love of God.
Again, there is no need to. There is NOTHING that can separate us (the believer) from the love of Christ. And you've not proven otherwise.Nowhere is "the beleiver" or "their sin" mentioned on that list at the End of Romans.
8:1 contrasts believer from unbeliever and has no relevance to the discussion about eternal security.That is an assumption on your part that such words are actually there (When they are not there). Second, even if you think the text is implying that, we know that is not the case, because Romans 8:1 says they that walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh are not under the Condemnation. For verse 13 says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
(Romans 8:13).
So I really do not see how a sin and still be saved doctrine is being taught here.
That is something you are wanting to see in the text that is clearly not there.
Your denial does not make it so. v.10 clearly SAYS that regardless of lifestyle (living like a Christian or unbeliever), we still WILL LIVE TOGETHER with Him.These verses are not talking about how one can sin and still be saved. It does not say that.
v.10. As I have already explained.Please show me specifically in that passage where a beleiver can sin and still be saved.
If that is true, then please do your own analysis of each verse from v.4 to v.10.You are making large leaps of assumptions upon what that passage is actually saying.
Who is defending the idea of sinning? That is only in your head. Those who disagree with your view aren't defending sin. But we recognize that we still have our sin natures and need daily cleansing for fellowship (1 Jn 1).I mean, stop and think for a moment.
Why do you think any person sins and or remains in their sin or defends the idea of sinning?
Because of what the Bible also says about our human (sinful) nature. Which you seem to keep denying.Because sin is pleasurable to people.
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
(2 Thessalonians 2:12).
The Bible also says, all who do evil hate the light. (John 3:20).
The Bible also says he that sins if of the devil (1 John 3:8).
So how can one who does evil and hate the light be of God?
The context for this passage is the Second Coming."And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
(2 Thessalonians 2:8-12).....
Sure. Because there is NO sin that will separate the believer from Christ's love. None. So why would Paul mention any sin?
I would ask the same of you.
What you've either ignored or just rejected is that the phrase "things present or things future" covers WHATEVER MAY OCCUR, which would obviously include the action of sinning. iow, anything that can happen WON'T separate the believer from the love of Christ.
Again, there is no need to. There is NOTHING that can separate us (the believer) from the love of Christ. And you've not proven otherwise.
8:1 contrasts believer from unbeliever and has no relevance to the discussion about eternal security.
I said this:
"But, if these verses don't convince one that sinning will NOT result in loss of salvation, consider 1 Thess 5:4-10.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Analysis:
v.4 & 5 contrasts believers (sons of light and of day) with unbelievers, (of night or darkness).
v.6 is an admonition to NOT live as unbelievers (not sleep as others do) but to be alert and sober.
v.7 describes in general the lifestyles of unbelievers.
v.8 we are to live according to our saved state: be sober, having faith and love, and the confidence of salvation
v.9 tells us that God has NOT destined believers for wrath, but for salvation.
v.10 Paul explains that regardless of lifestyle (whether we are awake-living for Christ or asleep-living like unbelievers) we WILL LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM
This passage is clear; our lifestyle will NOT change our destiny for salvation.
Now, for those who reject eternal security, please explain EACH verse to show how my analysis is wrong."
Your denial does not make it so. v.10 clearly SAYS that regardless of lifestyle (living like a Christian or unbeliever), we still WILL LIVE TOGETHER with Him.
And you've not shown that it means anything different than my analysis.
I specifically asked those who reject eternal security to analyze the verses to show me that my analysis is wrong. All you've given is your opinion, but no explanation.
v.10. As I have already explained.
If that is true, then please do your own analysis of each verse from v.4 to v.10.
Who is defending the idea of sinning? That is only in your head. Those who disagree with your view aren't defending sin. But we recognize that we still have our sin natures and need daily cleansing for fellowship (1 Jn 1).
Because of what the Bible also says about our human (sinful) nature. Which you seem to keep denying.
It appears that you're unable to explain 1 Thess 5:4-10 to prove that my analysis is wrong.
The context for this passage is the Second Coming.
You've admitted that you haven't yet achieved your anticipated sinless perfection, so that means you still sin. So, how can you claim to still be saved, since you still sin? Your views are contradicted.
You've admitted that you haven't yet achieved your anticipated sinless perfection, so that means you still sin. So, how can you claim to still be saved, since you still sin? Your views are contradicted.