The Law loses again..God must be angry!

[Soyeong]

Seems to me an ounce of kindness andcompassion is worth more than 50 lbs of law-keeping
All I am trying to say in this thread is that the spirit of the law....love FAITH and justice....is more important to God than trying to keep the law for Commandments for righteousness
Nobody kept the Law better than the Pharisees,yet God justified the poor publican that cried out.....God have mercy on me,a sinner.....he did all he had to do to be saved.....I wanna be saved too! Thank God His Law showed me my need for mercy.In my life,theLaw did it’s job.....God did the rest

Again, when having kindness, compassion, love, faith, and justified are all in accordance with what the Law instructs, they they can't be more important than keeping the Law. God had many purpose for giving the Law, but keeping for righteousness as never one of them, and has always been a fundamental misunderstand of what God gave it. It is this misunderstand of the purpose of the Law that is the reason why Israel failed to obtain righteousness, so you should learn from their mistake, not emulate it. The only difference is that because if your faith you don't think you need to obey the Law, but Paul said that our faith does not do away with our need to obey Law, but rather our faith upholds the Law (Romans 3:31). Jesus had very strong criticism for the Pharisees because they were not obeying the Law correctly.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Keeping the Law never granted righteousness because it was never given for that purpose, so it doesn't follow that because we can't obtain righteousness by keeping the Law that therefore we can't keep it, especially when God said that it is not too difficult for us. So when God said that I can keep it and you say that I can't, I'm going to have faith in what God said and choose life. If you don't have faith, if you refuse to come under God's grace, and would prefer to choose death, then it is your choice to disregard the Law, though it won't help you on Judgement Day. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey God's Law, so do you think that he had a correct understanding of how to go with God's grace?



I quoted Titus 2:14 to support my position, so I'm not sure why you are trying to imply that I am the one who is making up Scripture, especially when you have yet to quote a single verse to support your position.

Seems to me an ounce of kindness andcompassion is worth more than 50 lbs of law-keeping

I am relatively new here, but I am already bored with Law vs Grace debates.....we will probably both go to our graves believing what we believe....God knows our hearts and we are both trying to please God....to me your way is wrong—to you my way is wrong....tell you what.....you pray for me a nd I will pray for you..I never intended this thread to go down the road it is cùrrently going down....somebody start a new thread If you want to continue this debate
Now....what do you think of the original thought of this thread....the one where kindness is more important than strict application of the law

 

[Soyeong]

In the beginning the command was "Thou shalt not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil..." The 10 commandments came long after that because of the hardness of Israel's heart. God wanted a relationship, to interact directly with them, but they wanted someone to intercede...and so God gave it to them.

The Law is to bring knowledge of sin. Jesus Christ came to show The Way (back to the beginning) to take away the sins of the world. Paul said the purpose of the letter of the law is to bring death (to that inner man) so the spirit be revealed within and the law be written on the heart, not tablets of stone. Jesus broke The Law to keep it.

To love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself (do unto others as you would have them do to you) is to keep that first command. Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith - he believed God...before there were 10 commandments.

When the NEW has come, the old has passed away...New Creation lives (automatically by nature) by the spirit of Christ (mind of) and not the carnal nature of the old man...no labouring to keep God's command...though as part of the process taking place within/soul journey, the law has a purpose...to wear out the old man like a garment...(Hebrews 1:11-12) which all goes back to the beginning in the garden when Adam first perceived he was naked and ashamed, God making a covering of skin to cover up His glory (that still lives under that covering of skin and being revealed (within) when we can 'see' again...

Adam was made in the image of God, meaning that he was a reflection of God's attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. The Law was given to teach us how to walk in God's ways and to reflect these attributes, so obedience to it is about restoring us to the image of God. Faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and if we love God, then we will obey His commands, so obedience to God's commands has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. If we keep the law outwardly according to the letter without being focused growing in a relationship with God, then we are missing the whole point and are counted as being just as Lawless as someone who does not seek to obey it. This is why Paul considered doing that to be rubbish (Philippians 3:8). According to Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls, so it has never been about laboring to keep God's commands, but about living by faith. Hebrews 1:11-12 is not speaking about the Law.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Seems to me an ounce of kindness andcompassion is worth more than 50 lbs of law-keeping

Ah...... as if emotion or feelings could accomplish what is good and right and true and healing and righteous and just and restorative and eliminate the evil....
see?
TORAH, properly used as YAHWEH intends, does all that and more, perfectly.

Love as an emotion or feeling, does not.

Love as a choice, to obey Yahweh and do what is perfectly best, does.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Adam was made in the image of God, meaning that he was a reflection of God's attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. The Law was given to teach us how to walk in God's ways and to reflect these attributes, so obedience to it is about restoring us to the image of God. Faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and if we love God, then we will obey His commands, so obedience to God's commands has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. If we keep the law outwardly according to the letter without being focused growing in a relationship with God, then we are missing the whole point and are counted as being just as Lawless as someone who does not seek to obey it. This is why Paul considered doing that to be rubbish (Philippians 3:8). According to Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls, so it has never been about laboring to keep God's commands, but about living by faith. Hebrews 1:11-12 is not speaking about the Law.

According to Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls, so it has never been about laboring to keep God's commands, but about living by faith

I think we a lot closer than we realize.....the righteous shall live by faith...I agree with almost all of your post

here....I am sure that will allow you to sleep better tonight lol!

 

[Devin P]

Mary was “ with child”. Joseph was certain that Mary had done wrong.He was certainof this until the Angel convinced him otherwise..in the interim hadJoseph been a good law- keeper,he would have seen to it that Mary would be stoned to death....that was THE LAW.!...Fortunatly for all concerned Joseph ignored THE LAW and chose compassion instead.Love and compassion will always trump law..anyone got any other examples to show what God really wants....seems to me an ounce of kindness and compassion is worth more than 50 lbs of law-keeping

Well, let's consult the law here for this one:

Deuteronomy 24:1 - When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

He hadn't yet consummated the marriage, and according to Deuteronomy 24:1, if before you consummate the marriage, you find proof that your wife isn't a virgin, then doing what Joseph did here, is literally doing exactly what the law calls for. He didn't choose "love" over law, he just simply obeyed the law.

 

[Halbhh]

The one who was the man that God sent to teach the Gospel said that we are to follow Paul—-as Paul followed Christ....trust me.....it’s in there

Seems you are thinking of 1 Cor chapter 1, but suggest you read it yourself carefully, starting at verse 10.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Adam was made in the image of God, meaning that he was a reflection of God's attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. The Law was given to teach us how to walk in God's ways and to reflect these attributes, so obedience to it is about restoring us to the image of God. Faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and if we love God, then we will obey His commands, so obedience to God's commands has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. If we keep the law outwardly according to the letter without being focused growing in a relationship with God, then we are missing the whole point and are counted as being just as Lawless as someone who does not seek to obey it. This is why Paul considered doing that to be rubbish (Philippians 3:8). According to Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls, so it has never been about laboring to keep God's commands, but about living by faith. Hebrews 1:11-12 is not speaking about the Law.

The Law came from Sinai because of the hardness of heart of man (Israel)...for a purpose that was a shadow of what Christ will do...bring death to that old man of sin and LIFE by the spirit. That does not mean not keeping the law (for the thou shalt not eat...was the command of God) Israel was so far from what God wanted, not knowing or seeing what it meant, He broke it down for them into many ... to bring what that meant/means to awareness to Israel.

When the spirit of Christ is restored/renewed we are brought back to that state Adam was in before the fall. The revealing/revelation taking place within...by the power of that spirit the "thou shalt not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil" passes from (spiritual) sight and The Tree of LIFE is where we eat...the law utterly fulfilled/kept without needing to take a thought about it...

2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Soyeong]

Seems to me an ounce of kindness andcompassion is worth more than 50 lbs of law-keeping

I am relatively new here, but I am already bored with Law vs Grace debates.....we will probably both go to our graves believing what we believe....God knows our hearts and we are both trying to please God....to me your way is wrong—to you my way is wrong....tell you what.....you pray for me a nd I will pray for you..I never intended this thread to go down the road it is cùrrently going down....somebody start a new thread If you want to continue this debate
Now....what do you think of the original thought of this thread....the one where kindness is more important than strict application of the law

Haha, ya, some topics get frequently rehashed, but I would really like your take on Psalms 119:29. It seems to me that if you agree that the Psalms are Scripture and that all Scripture is true, then you should agree that it is true that God is gracious us to by teaching us to obey His Law, and if you do not share that understanding of God's grace, then you are therefore not in agreement with Scripture.

I would hope you would agree with Jesus that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and that obedience to His commands is straightforwardly about placing our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. This is why I see a rejection of God Law as amounting to someone saying that they do not have faith in God to guide them and that they do not believe God when he said that what He commanded is for our own good and to bless us. It is by this faith that we are declared righteous, not the obedience to His commands, but by the same faith we also therefore also required to be careful to obey all of God's commands.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Seems you are thinking of 1 Cor chapter 1, but suggest you read it yourself carefully, starting at verse 10.

Nope.....this one...1Cor:11:1......God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Mary was “ with child”. Joseph was certain that Mary had done wrong.He was certainof this until the Angel convinced him otherwise..in the interim hadJoseph been a good law- keeper,he would have seen to it that Mary would be stoned to death....that was THE LAW.!...Fortunatly for all concerned Joseph ignored THE LAW and chose compassion instead.Love and compassion will always trump law..anyone got any other examples to show what God really wants....seems to me an ounce of kindness and compassion is worth more than 50 lbs of law-keeping

Actually, the fact that Joseph received a message from an angel after he was planning to divorce her privately proves that it was not as you say. For we do not see Joseph about to stone Mary and then the angel intervenes. Nowhere do we know all of the thoughts of Joseph had towards Mary when she was with child by Jesus in the Scriptures. Joseph made no plans to stone her. That is not in the Bible! He simply was going to divorce her privately and before that happened, an angel told Joseph the truth. It was not his compassion for Mary that prevented him from wanting to stone her. You are making that up.

In any event, to love your neighbor is the second greatest commandment or law (Matthew 22:36-40). Love is a law from God. While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace when we receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and by believing the gospel, we are also saved by continuing to abide in Christ and His good ways, too. How so? Well, Scripture says,

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

Oh, and here verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Actually, the fact that Joseph received a message from an angel after he was planning to divorce her privately proves that it was not as you say. For we do not see Joseph about to stone Mary and then the angel intervenes. Nowhere do we know all of the thoughts of Joseph had towards Mary when she was with child by Jesus in the Scriptures. Joseph made no plans to stone her. That is not in the Bible! He simply was going to divorce her privately and before that happened, an angel told Joseph the truth. It was not his compassion for Mary that prevented him from wanting to stone her. You are making that up.

In any event, to love your neighbor is the second greatest commandment or law (Matthew 22:36-40). Love is a law from God. While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace when we receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and by believing the gospel, we are also saved by continuing to abide in Christ and His good ways, too. How so? Well, Scripture says,

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

Oh, and here verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Please see post 163.....thanks and God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please see post 163.....thanks and God bless

But your not making any sense. Do you even realize that the two greatest commandments are based on love? So when you say that compassion (love) is better than law keeping, you are saying something that is simply not true. Paul essentially says in Romans 13:8-10 that to love your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the moral law like, "do not murder," "do not steal," and "do not covet," etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please see post 163.....thanks and God bless

Also, look at the verses I posted in Post #172.
Do not try to read them to fit your personal belief. Just read these verses and believe them at face value.

 

[Halbhh]

Nope.....this one...1Cor:11:1......God bless

Nice. Paul is a great example of following the "Law of Christ" as he phrased it in Galatians. One thing we have now, and they did not have then when Paul wrote these epistles -- the gospels written down and in our hands to read.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nice. Paul is a great example of following the "Law of Christ" as he phrased it in Galatians. One thing we have now, and they did not have then when Paul wrote these epistles -- the gospels written down and in our hands to read.

And that helped how ?

(seeings as they had better purity in ekklesia (assemblies) much much more than on earth since , well, let's just say a long, long time )

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, let's consult the law here for this one:

Ooops. I think it is written that the TORAH IS GOOD when it is used properly, as Yahweh designed it and gave it to be.

Not when it is misused with wrong purpose.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If those people do those things because they say they heard from God, they are lying.

No they delude themselves. If you don't think that happens...up to you....but it does.

When did I ever say I only had to SAY I have faith. Never said it.
I did say, "Faith is the only thing required".
If the faith you have isn't producing works, you need to examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith.

Then you do have to have works? That's precisely what you just said.

You honestly think you are doing good?
If you do anything that Christ did not do through you, it will profit you nothing.
Any righteous act you perform by yourself God looks at as a filthy rag. Isaiah 64:6

The post went over your head/you misunderstood.

As far as me/anyone being good, let me try to explain. As far as Christ working through us, he doesn't make us do good, it is our choice....free will. When Christ was discussing doing good, he made it clear "none are truly good. However the term is still used to describe those who, well, do good, or as good as good gets. What Christ said there and the dirty rags thing, was to make a point, we all know the point and we move on, and the point need not be brought up each time the term "good" is used. The word was not abolished from existence as still meaning "good". You seem to be saying there is no such thing as good when it comes to mortal man, so here is an example from the bible:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

So, you see, it's still used in it's normal way, like I used it. And yes I can attempt to do good things and be good....you think that'd be okay? Or do you think that means I need another lesson. ?

 

[discipler7]

The Law was given for many reasons....the main reason He gave it was to show us we can’t keep it.

Not quite true.

MATTHEW.19: =
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

God gave the Law to curb Man's inborn tendency to commit sins and wickedness(eg GENESIS.6:5). Nevertheless, the Law could not make humans perfect and be saved from hell when they die. Hence, the need for Jesus the Saviour Christ/Messiah.
.
.

...who cries out for a Saviour until he sees in his heart that he needs one.

We cried out for a Saviour not because we could not keep the Law, but because we could see how evil/satanic/sinful we are in our inborn Adamic hearts(cf; MATTHEW.5:27-30) = bound for hell = need to be born-again of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God or be saved from hell when we die.(JOHN.3:5)
... Those who are born-again of the Spirit truly love God and their neighbours in their hearts and desire to keep His Law, either fully or partially(for Gentile Christians).

1JOHN.5:18 = 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[SBC]

They were engaged not married. The word for husband there simply means "man". In this case the KJV is incorrect since they were not yet married. The Greek word for espoused means to be engaged, a status prior to being married.

When did Joseph ask Mary to marry him?
When were Joseph and Mary "engaged" ?
When did Mary's father pay Joseph?
When did Mary become pregnant?
When were Joseph and Mary "married" ?
When did Mary visit Elizabeth for 3 months?
When was Jesus born?

God Bless
SBC