The Lake Of Fire

[Shrewd Manager]

Your comment is of course a two street isn't it?

It's a 10 lane superhighway. Major infrastructure!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It is plainly such a state of willful, determined opposition to God and the Holy Spirit that no efforts will avail to lead to repentance. Among the Jews, it was a sin against God answering to treason in our times.

Bit off-topic, but we can explore this. A few verses re the HS:

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (Jn 16:13)

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isa 11:2)

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. (Jn 14:17)

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. (1 Cor 2:11)

So yes, from this selection we might surmise that wilful rejection of the spirit of truth who guides to wisdom and understanding may amount to blasphemy of the HS. So first, the rejection of the spiritual dimension in favour of the carnal (eg the letter kills, only the spirit gives life). Secondly, the rejection of the truth of God (eg His perfect victory over His enemies by delivering on His covenant promises to save all mankind). Thirdly, the rejection of faith in the will or power of God to achieve His divine purpose.

Sound about right? If the shoe fits...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

As politicians love to say these days......Let me be perfectly clear!!!!!

I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. I am also a believer in His written Word as His way of communicating to us.

As you friend has said...………..
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now until YOU post Scriptures that CONTEXTUALLY validate yours and his opinions.....you my friend are wastin a lot of valuable time!

When it comes to spiritual things about God, Christ The Holy Spirit I ONLY Accept what is written in the Word Of God and upto and includding today, YOU have not post one single Scriptures that supports your opinion.

WHY IS THAT?????????
THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Really Major, I'd hope you'd do better than misrepresenting Fine Linen's views. As you know well, he holds to the salvific function of the Lake of Fire.

It is God's mercy boasting over judgment, meaning sin is destroyed and the the man raised anew in Christ.

 

[FineLinen]

Really Major, I'd hope you'd do better than misrepresenting Fine Linen's views. As you know well, he holds to the salvific function of the Lake of Fire.

It is God's mercy boasting over judgment, meaning sin is destroyed and the the man raised anew in Christ.

The fact is our Father will not tolerate sin: it must go!

"Reason teaches us that Good having a divine Principle, ought to be stronger than Evil, which is essentially nothing but Disorder and Depravation; that Evil putting man into a State of Violence, that State cannot continue for ever; that this State of Violence supposes its contrary in Man, struggling against it…that God being the God of Order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the Universe, can never consent that disorder and confusion should prevail there for ever." -Marie Huber (Swiss Protestant Theologian)

"How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever? What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?" -Hannah Hurnard-

"To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God's Son was "manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil" -Andrew Jukes-

 

[Major1]

Really Major, I'd hope you'd do better than misrepresenting Fine Linen's views. As you know well, he holds to the salvific function of the Lake of Fire.

It is God's mercy boasting over judgment, meaning sin is destroyed and the the man raised anew in Christ.

It is impossible to misrepresent what someone actually said.
However that maybe, it does not matter one little bit what finelinen holds, or for that matter what YOU hold to and certainly not me.

Truth is and always has been what God says it is my friend.

 

[Major1]

Bit off-topic, but we can explore this. A few verses re the HS:

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (Jn 16:13)

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isa 11:2)

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. (Jn 14:17)

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. (1 Cor 2:11)

So yes, from this selection we might surmise that wilful rejection of the spirit of truth who guides to wisdom and understanding may amount to blasphemy of the HS. So first, the rejection of the spiritual dimension in favour of the carnal (eg the letter kills, only the spirit gives life). Secondly, the rejection of the truth of God (eg His perfect victory over His enemies by delivering on His covenant promises to save all mankind). Thirdly, the rejection of faith in the will or power of God to achieve His divine purpose.

Sound about right? If the shoe fits...

You said...……..
"Secondly, the rejection of the truth of God (eg His perfect victory over His enemies by delivering on His covenant promises to save all mankind). "

Again, that is your personal opinion and has NO Scriptural support.

For ALL men to be saved then ALL men must come to Christ and accept Him BEFORE death takes them.

There are NO Scriptures which say that there is a second chance after death. If there were, you and your partner would already have posted them.

The Universalist theology is a view runs counter to the teaching of the Bible that "all who call upon the name of the Lord" will be united to Christ and eternally saved, not all people in general.

Jesus Christ taught that those who reject him as Savior will spend eternity in hell after they die which are recorded in these Scriptures.:

Matthew 10:28
Matthew 23:33
Matthew 25:46
Luke 16:23
John 3:36

 

[Major1]

The fact is our Father will not tolerate sin: it must go!

"Reason teaches us that Good having a divine Principle, ought to be stronger than Evil, which is essentially nothing but Disorder and Depravation; that Evil putting man into a State of Violence, that State cannot continue for ever; that this State of Violence supposes its contrary in Man, struggling against it…that God being the God of Order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the Universe, can never consent that disorder and confusion should prevail there for ever." -Marie Huber (Swiss Protestant Theologian)

"How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever? What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?" -Hannah Hurnard-

"To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God's Son was "manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil" -Andrew Jukes-

Universalism focuses exclusively on God's love and mercy and ignores his holiness, justice, and wrath. It also assumes that God's love depends on what he does for humanity, rather than being a self-existing attribute of God present from eternity, before man was created.

What you said about sin is exacter opposite of the real Universalist teachings.

Universalists say Christ’s sacrifice on the cross met all the demands for God’s justice, but would it be justice for the wicked to enjoy the same rewards as those who were martyred for Christ?

I have to wonder if you think about what you post before posting it.

The fact that often there is no justice in this life requires that a just God impose it in the next.

"Desiring to focus on the rosy optimism of the universal perfection of man, sin is, for the most part, an irrelevancy... Sin is minimized and trivialized in all universalistic teaching."
(James Fowler, president of Christ in you Ministries)

 

[Major1]

It's a 10 lane superhighway. Major infrastructure!

NOT SO!

It is actually a ONE LANE STREET.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not every one that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[Major1]

Much rejoicing on earth and in heaven!



Oh Major, we were doing so well.

It's more than an opinion, it's my FAITH, Major. And that faith is solidly grounded in reason, it is 'fides et ratio'. And some of those reasons are as follows.

• God's emphatic and supervening plan for mankind is the salvation of all. (eg Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Cor 15:27 etc etc)
• Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. Yahushua is God’s Salvation and the alpha and omega (Jn 3:17, Rev 22:13, Isa 48:12)
• Jesus does this by restorative means. (Lk 4:18, Isa 61:1, Mt 10:8 etc)
• The gospel is great news for all mankind (Lk 2:10-11)
• 'Destruction of the flesh' and 'death of self' are figurative, describing a stage of salvation. (What Does the Bible Say About Dying To Self?)
• The destiny of the nations is their redemption and healing. (Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List)
• God's enemies are spiritual not physical (55 Bible verses about Spiritual Warfare, Enemies In)
• Holy fire is a purifying agent (What Does the Bible Say About Refiners Fire?)
• God's attributes militate against torture - it offends His grace, mercy, justice, righteousness, truthfulness, holiness, honour, everything really...

The list goes on, as you can see, scripture is saturated in these great principles.

I have a funny feeling you're going to minimise and reject these compelling grounds because of a perverse need to cling to the idea of God torturing most ppl forever and a day, based on a handful of disparate and out-of-context scriptures interpreted carnally. Sorry Major, but no sale. Listen to the Spirit, in the last days God will pour His Spirit out on all flesh.



Let's say 'infernalism', as that fits the 'Sons of Hell' monicker with which Jesus saddles the Pharisees in Matthew 23:15.



Parentheses are brackets (). I see no brackets around the text in Rev 15:1. Nor do I see any other indication that the verse is 'parenthetical'. That would be a dogmatic opinion based on nothing but mere assertion. You seem to be using this idea to deny that Rev 15:1 is a true statement.

I can understand why you might be confused because of the subsequent verse in Rev 16:1-2 you've raised. However, the vials were obviously prepared EARLIER. God is no longer angry by this stage, but the wrath is STORED UP as per Romans 2:5. That's why it's stored in vials.



Major, you just make these great irrational leaps to conclusions based on nothing really. Even if God is still pouring out His wrath by Rev 16:2, this in no way refutes the universalist thesis. The purpose of His venting His divine anger is to destroy the enemies of His creation and bring mankind to repentance. Because He has promised to save all. That's why we see the nations emerging from the fire repentant and ready for healing in the final pages of scripture.

Universalism and “Annihilationism” are both unscriptural—in fact, they are heresy. The Bible is adamant that the bodies and souls of lost people will spend a literal eternity in the literal lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur). Their souls and bodies will never be consumed in hell. I suggest that you read the Holy Scriptures because God’s Word—not a theological system—is the final authority.

Matthew 10:28 KJV says, …….
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Proponents of Universalism and “annihilationism” twist (deliberately distort and misquote) this verse in a desperate attempt to prove that God annihilates both body and soul in hell. Before we jump to this conclusion, let us consider another Bible verses. In order to understand one verse, we need to look for others! What does it mean that bodies and souls are “destroyed” in hell?

The Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 16:26......
“For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” .

Mark 8:36 KJV says,....
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Luke 9:25 KJV says, “For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?”

Losing your eternal soul is the greatest of all losses, so take this topic seriously!

 

[Major1]

Much rejoicing on earth and in heaven!



Oh Major, we were doing so well.

It's more than an opinion, it's my FAITH, Major. And that faith is solidly grounded in reason, it is 'fides et ratio'. And some of those reasons are as follows.

• God's emphatic and supervening plan for mankind is the salvation of all. (eg Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Cor 15:27 etc etc)
• Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. Yahushua is God’s Salvation and the alpha and omega (Jn 3:17, Rev 22:13, Isa 48:12)
• Jesus does this by restorative means. (Lk 4:18, Isa 61:1, Mt 10:8 etc)
• The gospel is great news for all mankind (Lk 2:10-11)
• 'Destruction of the flesh' and 'death of self' are figurative, describing a stage of salvation. (What Does the Bible Say About Dying To Self?)
• The destiny of the nations is their redemption and healing. (Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List)
• God's enemies are spiritual not physical (55 Bible verses about Spiritual Warfare, Enemies In)
• Holy fire is a purifying agent (What Does the Bible Say About Refiners Fire?)
• God's attributes militate against torture - it offends His grace, mercy, justice, righteousness, truthfulness, holiness, honour, everything really...

The list goes on, as you can see, scripture is saturated in these great principles.

I have a funny feeling you're going to minimise and reject these compelling grounds because of a perverse need to cling to the idea of God torturing most ppl forever and a day, based on a handful of disparate and out-of-context scriptures interpreted carnally. Sorry Major, but no sale. Listen to the Spirit, in the last days God will pour His Spirit out on all flesh.



Let's say 'infernalism', as that fits the 'Sons of Hell' monicker with which Jesus saddles the Pharisees in Matthew 23:15.



Parentheses are brackets (). I see no brackets around the text in Rev 15:1. Nor do I see any other indication that the verse is 'parenthetical'. That would be a dogmatic opinion based on nothing but mere assertion. You seem to be using this idea to deny that Rev 15:1 is a true statement.

I can understand why you might be confused because of the subsequent verse in Rev 16:1-2 you've raised. However, the vials were obviously prepared EARLIER. God is no longer angry by this stage, but the wrath is STORED UP as per Romans 2:5. That's why it's stored in vials.



Major, you just make these great irrational leaps to conclusions based on nothing really. Even if God is still pouring out His wrath by Rev 16:2, this in no way refutes the universalist thesis. The purpose of His venting His divine anger is to destroy the enemies of His creation and bring mankind to repentance. Because He has promised to save all. That's why we see the nations emerging from the fire repentant and ready for healing in the final pages of scripture.

Finelinen has stated correctly that...…..
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now there is really nothing else to be debated. You and your friends have rejected the written Word of God and have made up your own theology of who goes to heaven and who does not.

This same problem came up in the 1st church and I think you all should read how Paul addresses it in Galatians 1:8-9......

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

 

[Major1]

Much rejoicing on earth and in heaven!



Oh Major, we were doing so well.

It's more than an opinion, it's my FAITH, Major. And that faith is solidly grounded in reason, it is 'fides et ratio'. And some of those reasons are as follows.

• God's emphatic and supervening plan for mankind is the salvation of all. (eg Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Cor 15:27 etc etc)
• Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. Yahushua is God’s Salvation and the alpha and omega (Jn 3:17, Rev 22:13, Isa 48:12)
• Jesus does this by restorative means. (Lk 4:18, Isa 61:1, Mt 10:8 etc)
• The gospel is great news for all mankind (Lk 2:10-11)
• 'Destruction of the flesh' and 'death of self' are figurative, describing a stage of salvation. (What Does the Bible Say About Dying To Self?)
• The destiny of the nations is their redemption and healing. (Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List)
• God's enemies are spiritual not physical (55 Bible verses about Spiritual Warfare, Enemies In)
• Holy fire is a purifying agent (What Does the Bible Say About Refiners Fire?)
• God's attributes militate against torture - it offends His grace, mercy, justice, righteousness, truthfulness, holiness, honour, everything really...

The list goes on, as you can see, scripture is saturated in these great principles.

I have a funny feeling you're going to minimise and reject these compelling grounds because of a perverse need to cling to the idea of God torturing most ppl forever and a day, based on a handful of disparate and out-of-context scriptures interpreted carnally. Sorry Major, but no sale. Listen to the Spirit, in the last days God will pour His Spirit out on all flesh.



Let's say 'infernalism', as that fits the 'Sons of Hell' monicker with which Jesus saddles the Pharisees in Matthew 23:15.



Parentheses are brackets (). I see no brackets around the text in Rev 15:1. Nor do I see any other indication that the verse is 'parenthetical'. That would be a dogmatic opinion based on nothing but mere assertion. You seem to be using this idea to deny that Rev 15:1 is a true statement.

I can understand why you might be confused because of the subsequent verse in Rev 16:1-2 you've raised. However, the vials were obviously prepared EARLIER. God is no longer angry by this stage, but the wrath is STORED UP as per Romans 2:5. That's why it's stored in vials.



Major, you just make these great irrational leaps to conclusions based on nothing really. Even if God is still pouring out His wrath by Rev 16:2, this in no way refutes the universalist thesis. The purpose of His venting His divine anger is to destroy the enemies of His creation and bring mankind to repentance. Because He has promised to save all. That's why we see the nations emerging from the fire repentant and ready for healing in the final pages of scripture.

Finelinen has stated correctly that...…..
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now there is really nothing else to be debated. You and your friends have rejected the written Word of God and have made up your own theology of who goes to heaven and who does not.

This same problem came up in the 1st church and I think you all should read how Paul addresses it in Galatians 1:8-9......

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

 

[Major1]

Much rejoicing on earth and in heaven!



Oh Major, we were doing so well.

It's more than an opinion, it's my FAITH, Major. And that faith is solidly grounded in reason, it is 'fides et ratio'. And some of those reasons are as follows.

• God's emphatic and supervening plan for mankind is the salvation of all. (eg Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Cor 15:27 etc etc)
• Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. Yahushua is God’s Salvation and the alpha and omega (Jn 3:17, Rev 22:13, Isa 48:12)
• Jesus does this by restorative means. (Lk 4:18, Isa 61:1, Mt 10:8 etc)
• The gospel is great news for all mankind (Lk 2:10-11)
• 'Destruction of the flesh' and 'death of self' are figurative, describing a stage of salvation. (What Does the Bible Say About Dying To Self?)
• The destiny of the nations is their redemption and healing. (Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List)
• God's enemies are spiritual not physical (55 Bible verses about Spiritual Warfare, Enemies In)
• Holy fire is a purifying agent (What Does the Bible Say About Refiners Fire?)
• God's attributes militate against torture - it offends His grace, mercy, justice, righteousness, truthfulness, holiness, honour, everything really...

The list goes on, as you can see, scripture is saturated in these great principles.

I have a funny feeling you're going to minimise and reject these compelling grounds because of a perverse need to cling to the idea of God torturing most ppl forever and a day, based on a handful of disparate and out-of-context scriptures interpreted carnally. Sorry Major, but no sale. Listen to the Spirit, in the last days God will pour His Spirit out on all flesh.



Let's say 'infernalism', as that fits the 'Sons of Hell' monicker with which Jesus saddles the Pharisees in Matthew 23:15.



Parentheses are brackets (). I see no brackets around the text in Rev 15:1. Nor do I see any other indication that the verse is 'parenthetical'. That would be a dogmatic opinion based on nothing but mere assertion. You seem to be using this idea to deny that Rev 15:1 is a true statement.

I can understand why you might be confused because of the subsequent verse in Rev 16:1-2 you've raised. However, the vials were obviously prepared EARLIER. God is no longer angry by this stage, but the wrath is STORED UP as per Romans 2:5. That's why it's stored in vials.



Major, you just make these great irrational leaps to conclusions based on nothing really. Even if God is still pouring out His wrath by Rev 16:2, this in no way refutes the universalist thesis. The purpose of His venting His divine anger is to destroy the enemies of His creation and bring mankind to repentance. Because He has promised to save all. That's why we see the nations emerging from the fire repentant and ready for healing in the final pages of scripture.

Finelinen has stated correctly that...…..
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now there is really nothing else to be debated. You and your friends have rejected the written Word of God and have made up your own theology of who goes to heaven and who does not.

This same problem came up in the 1st church and I think you all should read how Paul addresses it in Galatians 1:8-9......

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

 

[Major1]

Much rejoicing on earth and in heaven!



Oh Major, we were doing so well.

It's more than an opinion, it's my FAITH, Major. And that faith is solidly grounded in reason, it is 'fides et ratio'. And some of those reasons are as follows.

• God's emphatic and supervening plan for mankind is the salvation of all. (eg Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Cor 15:27 etc etc)
• Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. Yahushua is God’s Salvation and the alpha and omega (Jn 3:17, Rev 22:13, Isa 48:12)
• Jesus does this by restorative means. (Lk 4:18, Isa 61:1, Mt 10:8 etc)
• The gospel is great news for all mankind (Lk 2:10-11)
• 'Destruction of the flesh' and 'death of self' are figurative, describing a stage of salvation. (What Does the Bible Say About Dying To Self?)
• The destiny of the nations is their redemption and healing. (Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List)
• God's enemies are spiritual not physical (55 Bible verses about Spiritual Warfare, Enemies In)
• Holy fire is a purifying agent (What Does the Bible Say About Refiners Fire?)
• God's attributes militate against torture - it offends His grace, mercy, justice, righteousness, truthfulness, holiness, honour, everything really...

The list goes on, as you can see, scripture is saturated in these great principles.

I have a funny feeling you're going to minimise and reject these compelling grounds because of a perverse need to cling to the idea of God torturing most ppl forever and a day, based on a handful of disparate and out-of-context scriptures interpreted carnally. Sorry Major, but no sale. Listen to the Spirit, in the last days God will pour His Spirit out on all flesh.



Let's say 'infernalism', as that fits the 'Sons of Hell' monicker with which Jesus saddles the Pharisees in Matthew 23:15.



Parentheses are brackets (). I see no brackets around the text in Rev 15:1. Nor do I see any other indication that the verse is 'parenthetical'. That would be a dogmatic opinion based on nothing but mere assertion. You seem to be using this idea to deny that Rev 15:1 is a true statement.

I can understand why you might be confused because of the subsequent verse in Rev 16:1-2 you've raised. However, the vials were obviously prepared EARLIER. God is no longer angry by this stage, but the wrath is STORED UP as per Romans 2:5. That's why it's stored in vials.



Major, you just make these great irrational leaps to conclusions based on nothing really. Even if God is still pouring out His wrath by Rev 16:2, this in no way refutes the universalist thesis. The purpose of His venting His divine anger is to destroy the enemies of His creation and bring mankind to repentance. Because He has promised to save all. That's why we see the nations emerging from the fire repentant and ready for healing in the final pages of scripture.

I am very sorry that you did not know about the Parenthetical Chapters of the Book of the Revelation.

Maybe if you spent more time in Bible study instead of on the computer Forums you would have know about this.

I am certainly not going to spend my time teaching this to you but I will suggest a really good web site for you to read and consider.
http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cartimages/Revelation-lesson 6.pdf

 

[FineLinen]

Really Major, I'd hope you'd do better than misrepresenting Fine Linen's views. As you know well, he holds to the salvific function of the Lake of Fire.

It is God's mercy boasting over judgment, meaning sin is destroyed and the the man raised anew in Christ.

Dear brother Shrewd: apparently there are those among the holus-bolus whose present horizon makes it impossible to grasp the anakainosis, yet.

Fear not, I bring you glad tidings of great joy: all of the holus-bolus, by the working of ephphatha, will one wonderful day know the scope of both!

Anakainosis for the holus-bolus!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You said...……..
"Secondly, the rejection of the truth of God (eg His perfect victory over His enemies by delivering on His covenant promises to save all mankind). "

Again, that is your personal opinion and has NO Scriptural support.

Major, how many times must I repeat God's supervening overarching emphatic covenant promise:

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23)

For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." (Rom 14:11)

Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. (Ps 72:11)

For ALL men to be saved then ALL men must come to Christ and accept Him BEFORE death takes them.

You are majorly at odds with scripture on this one as well I'm afraid.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, (Phil 2:10)

And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!" (Rev 5:13)

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. (Isa 26:19)

There are NO Scriptures which say that there is a second chance after death. If there were, you and your partner would already have posted them.

I just did. What about Lazarus, he got a second chance? And the damsel who Jesus raised? And that kid Elisha raised in a rather non-politically correct manner lol? And Jesus himself, as the second Adam on behalf of fallen mankind - the RESURRECTION? That, Sir, is the revelation on which the Christian hope is builded, among these dark satanic mills.

The Universalist theology is a view runs counter to the teaching of the Bible that "all who call upon the name of the Lord" will be united to Christ and eternally saved, not all people in general.

I have faith that all will call on the name of the Lord, that's what the tribulation, the great battle of Armegiddo, the overcoming in the lake of fire are all for.

Jesus Christ taught that those who reject him as Savior will spend eternity in hell after they die which are recorded in these Scriptures.:

Matthew 10:28
Matthew 23:33
Matthew 25:46
Luke 16:23
John 3:36

Matthew 10:28 - God can destroy you in hell, but that's not what He's about, as the following verses make clear - He loves us more than His beloved 2-bit sparrows, that's for sure.

Matthew 23:33 - Yes, heed the warning to the Pharisees, for as they judged others (threatening them with hell), so too may they be judged. They'll get 'flipped'.

Matthew 25:46 - 'aeonian' is better translated 'a next world of' than 'eternal' in this verse (see for eg Gal 1:4). 'Kolasin' is the word for 'punishment' and means 'chatisement' or 'correction' distinguished from the Greek 'timoria', which denotes retributive punishment.

Luke 16:23 - this is part of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus and speaks of Hades, which is (in any event) thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15.

John 3:36 - this is of course true in conveying that so long as a person does not believe in Jesus (ie the total victory of God's salvation over the forces of evil), he is perishing. And as we've shown, sooner or later ALL come to believe. That's the promise, and is delivered as described in Revelation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

NOT SO!

It is actually a ONE LANE STREET.

You are on the money there Major. It is a narrow path to walk, on one side a great wall of fire and on the other a deep ocean.

The good news is that when we get burned we can jump in the water to cool off, and then dry off by the fire!

Praise God, for He has thought of everything!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Finelinen has stated correctly that...…..
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now there is really nothing else to be debated. You and your friends have rejected the written Word of God and have made up your own theology of who goes to heaven and who does not.

This same problem came up in the 1st church and I think you all should read how Paul addresses it in Galatians 1:8-9......

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Now you're accursing universalists? That's a major step to take. But just remember those 4 fingers that point right back each time you accuse.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I am very sorry that you did not know about the Parenthetical Chapters of the Book of the Revelation.

Maybe if you spent more time in Bible study instead of on the computer Forums you would have know about this.

I am certainly not going to spend my time teaching this to you but I will suggest a really good web site for you to read and consider.
http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cartimages/Revelation-lesson 6.pdf

May I thank you parenthetically for the link Major, as I affirm once more the awesome truth that is the TOTAL VICTORY OF CHRIST!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Let us consult the epitome of "literal" versions.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios” and “kolasis?”
…..In the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Paul, the same writer, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in the same writing, Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity. ​

= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

Who better to translate than Eastern Orthodox scholars? Well, firstly, they may have a priori unconscious assumptions based on their doctrinal leanings. If you already believe in ECT, you'll be more likely to interpret ambiguous words in favour of your doctrinal position, no?

We know there's controversy and uncertainty as to the meaning of 'aionion', and it can change depending on context eg Galatians 1:4 this present evil AGE/ WORLD.

To conflate aidios and aeonios is aodious. The HS has clearly chosen his words more carefully than you give him credit for.

There's also controversy as to 'kolasin'. Clement of Alexandria, Aristotle (a preeminent Greek pagan philosopher who died over 300 years before the advent of Christ and so had no 'dog in the fight') and other luminaries of the day clearly distinguished its meaning from that of 'timoria', the former deriving from 'pruning' and connoting chastisement and correction.

Even if I grant you that our Lord used 'eternal punishment' in Matt 25:46, a few matters need to be kept in mind:

• This destiny is reserved only for those who fail to do certain specific corporal works of mercy for the brethren. (Mt 25:41-45, see also Luke 16:19-31)
• Jesus may well be employing a common Hebraic rhetorical technique of hyperbole in order to get the point across. (Compare Matthew 5:30 and similar scriptures.)
• There is no way to square ECT with the promises of salvation of all which abound throughout scripture.
• It beggars belief that the most terrifying aspect of creation is only referenced in a few disparate scriptures and not part of the catalogue of God's creation in the OT.
• Eternal punishment of the many without hope of redemption prima facie reflects a brutal, squalid, ignominious and jaundiced attempt to usurp God's munificent grace and the power of the Cross.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

And I recommend you read the following der Alter:

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear brother Shrewd: apparently there are those among the holus-bolus whose present horizon makes it impossible to grasp the anakainosis, yet.

Fear not, I bring you glad tidings of great joy: all of the holus-bolus, by the working of ephphatha, will one wonderful day know the scope of both!

Anakainosis for the holus-bolus!

Indeed brother:

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

I love that 'ephphatha' has the sound of 'Father' in it. The Father who opens the eyes and ears, the heart and mind. There is NONE BIGGER, and done for us so:

that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:17-19)