The Jews to be kept safe during the Great Tribulation

[jgr]

Versus historic fantasy.

It's far more difficult to fantasize about what has occurred, than about what has not.

Fact and reality tend to constrain the former.

 

[jgr]

Well, Jesus came. Jesus died. Jesus rose again. Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Then, as head of the church, as advanced the gospel to the ends of the earth. This is what God has already done. Futurists believe all this. We also believe God was behind 70 AD. It certainly would not have happened unless he was OK with it.

Gratifying to see that.

Does it include Daniel 9:24-27?

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi Billy, Revelation 12 is the 7 years relevant to Israel. Israel goes through the entire 7 years, and actually has a part regarding the beginning by embracing the prince who shall come in Daniel 9, as their messiah, and him anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

Rev. 12 only deals with 1260 days of Tribulation, not the full 7 years. And as we have debated before, Israel never accept the Anti-Christ, that a misinterpretation of John 5:43. That verse was fulfilled in 70 AD or just before, when the Pharisees Jesus was speaking to then ACCEPTED false Messiahs after having rejected Jesus, they did this knowing that Rome was the Fourth Beast and thus they expected the Little Horn to come forth at any moment, and thus they put forth "Messiahs" in order to try and save themselves from the coming invasion, like the Messiah is supposed to do in Zech. 14:3-4. So no one accepts the Anti-Christ as their Messiah, the False Prophet (Jewish High Priest, IMHO) throws in with him and he deceives some Jews via a PEACE PLAN but they do not accept him as their King.

That person will confirm the Mt. Sinai as required by Moses of all leaders of Israel on a seven year cycle. Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It is a big speech to the nation of Israel. That is what actually starts the seven years.

After a little over 3 years, the person betrays them, transgressing the covenant, claims to be God. The 2Thessalonians2:4 act. The Jews will be mortified, in shock and dismay, and will renounce him as their King. That ends his time in the role of being the Antichrist.

Like we have discussed before, Covenant in Hebrew only means "AGREEMENT" so this Little Horn has an AGREEMENT with MANY, not just Israel, and thus he conquers the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, just like all the Beats before him have done.

He will be killed and brought back alive as the beast, King of the Roman empire in the end times, the ten EU kings pledge their kingdom to him (Revelation 17:17). Satan and the beast will persecute the Jews which don't flee into the wilderness in time (Revelation 12:17). The other Jews will be protected in the wilderness.

Revelation 12 is all about Israel, the Jews, during that 7 years. In the middle part of the 7 years after the ordeal of picking the wrong guy, they turn to Jesus and embrace the gospel of salvation in Revelation 12:10.

No man can be killed and brought back to life. The BEAST with 7 Heads suffered the Mortal Wound when the Church which could not be overcome by the gates of hell was born, thus in Rev. 13 we see the Lion, Leopard and Bear mentioned, and then we hear of the "Mortal Wound" which happened whilst Rome was the Beast, then of course when the Little Horn/Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region, the Beast will thus be HEALED. No man is killed and brought back to life, it is a metaphor for the Beast being overcome by the Church, then after the Church is Raptured the Beast returns again. The Jews who Flee only do so because they first Repented and thus heed Jesus' voice to flee Judea. (They read Matt. 24). Nowhere does the bible say they pick the wrong guy brother.

Note that the Antichrist's invasion into Jerusalem is not necessarily by military force. All he has to do is supplant the one true Messiah; that's it. No doubt the Lord will destroy the Antichrist's followers. What I am unsure your mind is open to is, those followers may be none other than the Jerusalemites who freely gave him the key to the city. Those followers may be Jewish. They already rejected the one true Messiah. Those who die rejecting the one true Messiah WILL NOT inherit heaven; Jewish or not. All these "blessings" of a new nation in the Holy Land--Palestine--are utterly meaningless if you don't have that.

The Agreements are with MANY Nations, bot with only the Jews, and its a geo-political agreement or Covenant, not an Agreement to accept anyone as their King !! The Anti-Christ most certainly will invade Jerusalem, that is where Jacob's Troubles come from. He will kill the 2/3 who do not Flee Judea, the 1/3 who repent BEFORE the DOTL (God's Wrath) starts at the very First Seal, will understand they have to Flee Judea in order to be protected by God in Petra.

Possibly. It's a matter of semantics. Take your arm: is your arm "you"? Well, yes. The Antichrist is a figurehead of the Beast. In that sense, yes. The Antichrist is the Beast. What the Antichrist is not, however, is the Beast in its entirety. Your body is comprised of a lot more than just your arm. In the same way, the Beast is a lot more than just the Antichrist.

Not really, what Mr. Billy is saying is 100 percent correct. A Beast is one that Conquers, Enslaves or Rules over Israel see Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. The coming Anti-Christ will Conquer Jerusalem/Israel to become the Beast for 42 Months. He is the designated Beast of Rev. 13 because of the 10 CROWNS on the 10 Horns showing he is over the 10 Kings who freely give their power unto him.

Rev. 12 is about the Red Dragon because the 7 CROWNS are on the 7 Heads this signifies Satan is over all Kingdoms of this world thus over the Mediterranean Sea Region also, just like we see in Luke 4 where Satan asks Jesus to bow down and worship him and he would give him all the Kingdoms of the whole world, because they were GIVEN HIM, to do as he pleases with. The world is under Satan's rule of Darkness until Jesu returns, thus the 7 Crowns on the 7 Heads.

Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, the Scarlet Colored Beast, he was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan like Paul spoke of when he said we wrestle not with flesh but with POWERS & PRINCIPALITIES in high places. Thus ALL THREE are Beasts over Israel. The Scarlet Colored Beast is thus OF THE SEVEN but is an 8th King. But he has NO CROWNS on the Horns or Heads because Satan is over him, and he is not a physical MAN of earth. He WAS.........IS NOT (he's locked in the bottomless pit)..........YET IS, in that he will be released at the 1st Woe in Rev. ch. 9. He is Apollyon, he was the Prince of Persia that resisted Michael in Dan. ch. 10 (He was OF THE SEVEN).

The Anti-Christ is THE BEAST of Rev. 13.

 

[Douggg]

Rev. 12 only deals with 1260 days of Tribulation, not the full 7 years. And as we have debated before, Israel never accept the Anti-Christ, that a misinterpretation of John 5:43.

It not just a matter of John 5:43, but of what the concept of "the messiah" is, in order to grasp what the concept of the Antichrist is.

Go to Isaiah 14:19-20, the person is cast out of the grave because of God's disdain for the person because he destroys his land and his people. He likened as an abominable branch. Jesus is the righteous branch. Both will have been descended from David.

"the messiah", is the promised King of Israel - descended from David.

 

[Douggg]

Rome was the Fourth Beast and thus they expected the Little Horn to come forth at any moment, and thus they put forth "Messiahs" in order to try and save themselves from the coming invasion, like the Messiah is supposed to do in Zech. 14:3-4. So no one accepts the Anti-Christ as their Messiah, the False Prophet (Jewish High Priest, IMHO) throws in with him and he deceives some Jews via a PEACE PLAN but they do not accept him as their King.

RT, you need to get on board that the person will be on two tracks. One is to becoming the King of Israel, the Antichrist. He has to be descended from David to be in that role.
He is likened to the abominable branch in Isaiah 14:19-20. i.e descended from David.

The other track is becoming the 7th and 8th king of the Roman Empire. As the little horn, then later as the beast. Descended from the Julio-Claudian line of Caesars as well.

It is not that the Jews accept the Antichrist as their messiah - like you are phrasing it.

He is NOT the Antichrist until they do embrace him as their messiah, and he is anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate)!

 

[Douggg]

No man can be killed and brought back to life.

Except by the power of God. Isaiah 14:19-20, the person is brought back to life.

 

[jgr]

It is obvious there has to be a pre tribulation Rapture, I will not venture to deep into that and throw off the subjected content of this thread, but the pre-trib Rapture is obvious to all but 10-15 percent of Christians, Paul spoke of it via the "Harpozo". I have never read Darby, and don't care to, but if he stated 2 Thess 2:3 mean "Departure" then he was 100 percent correct, the first 7 English translations had Departure and the Latin Vulgate used Dicsseo which meant Departure for 1000 years before the English versions used Departure, not until the KJV came along in 1611 did they use "falling away" and that seemed to be the Church of England taking a pot shot at the RCC, as if they were falling away from the faith, go figure. Its obvious what is being spoken of there, it's a gathering together unto Jesus BEFORE THAT DAY (DOTL) or God's Wrath can come upon them. The Man of Sin must also come BEFORE the DOTL. The Church will not be on earth at this time, Rev. 19 tells us that, if we listen.

Paul did not use "harpazo" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He used "apostasia".

"Apostasia" as "rapture" was unknown in Christian orthodoxy until its sudden appearance in 1895.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

 

[Revealing Times]

That is to each individual Jew that comes to Christ.........which any of them can now do........the apostate ones however continue to blaspheme our Lord and Christ and one reason they suffered the loss of their City and Temple in 70 ad

All God did was turn His back on Israel or stop favoring them as a Nation, as individuals they had the same chance to come unto Christ as we did/do unto this day. But there will come a day, (the 1335) when the Two-witnesses will show up and preach Christ crucified and many Jews (1/3) turn to Christ as their Messiah. This happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord just like Malachi 4:5-6 says. So the Jews come to Christ BEFORE the DOTL which starts at the very First Seal. They never accept a false messiah. Al people who reject Christ are apostate, be they Jews are Gentiles !!

In Revelation 17:10, the person will be the 7th (Julio-Claudian) king of the Roman Empire.
Which will be as the little horn person in Daniel 7 and 8.

The Fourth Beast is NO MORE Brother. The end time Beast has nothing to do with Rome or the Julio-Claudian order of Rome.

It not just a matter of John 5:43, but of what the concept of "the messiah" is, in order to grasp what the concept of the Antichrist is.

Go to Isaiah 14:19-20, the person is cast out of the grave because of God's disdain for the person because he destroys his land and his people. He likened as an abominable branch. Jesus is the righteous branch. Both will have been descended from David.

"the messiah", is the promised King of Israel - descended from David.

We call him the Anti-Christ because he is of the spirit of anti-Christ which is like the holy spirit in reverse, its also anti-God. It's always been just like God is eternal, as is the Holy Spirit. He is known by many names, so I have no problem with us calling him THE Anti-Christ, but his name is the Little Horn, Lawless One, Man of Sin, The Assyrian etc. etc. and none of these name denotes him as being the King of Israel Douggg that is something we have be going back and forth on a long time, its just not scriptural brother.

Isaiah 14:19-20 only means he is cast straight int hell, see Daniel 7:11 and Revelation 19:20. He will see no grave rest for the soul like everyone else does (except those alive at the Rapture).

"the messiah", is the promised King of Israel - descended from David.

It's is Jesus who Israel WILL ACCEPT before the DOTL. They never accept the Little Horn as their Messiah.

RT, you need to get on board that the person will be on two tracks. One is to becoming the King of Israel, the Antichrist. He has to be descended from David to be in that role.
He is likened to the abominable branch in Isaiah 14:19-20. i.e descended from David

Jesus is the Messiah. The Little Horn is a Gentile Ruler born in Greece.

The other track is becoming the 7th and 8th king of the Roman Empire. As the little horn, then later as the beast.

No such thing brother, the 7th King will be the Littl Horn the 8th is a demon named Apollyon.

It is not that the Jews accept the Antichrist as their messiah - like you are phrasing it.

He is NOT the Antichrist until they do embrace him as their messiah, and he is anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate)!

He is the GENTILE LAST BEAST, nothing more brother.

Except by the power of God. Isaiah 14:19-20, the person is brought back to life.

You are misinterpreting that scripture brother.

God Bless, been gone awhile, my Sister died about a month ago, been taking some time off

 

[Douggg]

he Fourth Beast is NO MORE Brother. The end time Beast has nothing to do with Rome or the Julio-Claudian order of Rome.

the treaties of Rome...
60 years of the Rome Treaties - European Union - European Commission

It's the EU. As soon as the EU reforms and the ten leaders are in place - this disagreement is going to come to an end. And the person known as the little horn will be identified.

 

[Douggg]

We call him the Anti-Christ because he is of the spirit of anti-Christ which is like the holy spirit in reverse, its also anti-God. It's always been just like God is eternal, as is the Holy Spirit. He is known by many names, so I have no problem with us calling him THE Anti-Christ, but his name is the Little Horn, Lawless One, Man of Sin, The Assyrian etc. etc. and none of these name denotes him as being the King of Israel Douggg that is something we have be going back and forth on a long time, its just not scriptural brother.

Is Jesus the rightful King of Israel ? Is that scriptural ?

 

[Douggg]

It's is Jesus who Israel WILL ACCEPT before the DOTL. They never accept the Little Horn as their Messiah.

Israel, the Jews, embrace the gospel of salvation in Jesus in the middle of the 7 years. Revelation 12:10. There will be still the time, times, half times left in the 7 years in Revelation 12:14.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Good grief, we actually have 4 people that agree with this ? This is scary that people are this off via doctrine.

It most certainly is sad. The Jews in Israel are the same ones Hitler persecuted, he knew who they were. If it looks like a Jew and sounds like a Jew it is because it is a Jew.

The devil knows more than many Christians, he knows God has promised them the 1,000 year reign...but Hitler thought the Reich would last a 1,000 years.

 

[Billy Evmur]

That is the binding of Satan, not the kingdom. He attacks the kingdom (still here) when the 1000 years end.

You can't do that

You can't say you believe Satan will be bound for a 1,000 years but deny that Christ will reign with His saints a 1,000 years. That is to play scripture hopscotch.

 

[Revealing Times]

It most certainly is sad. The Jews in Israel are the same ones Hitler persecuted, he knew who they were. If it looks like a Jew and sounds like a Jew it is because it is a Jew.

The devil knows more than many Christians, he knows God has promised them the 1,000 year reign...but Hitler thought the Reich would last a 1,000 years.

On a study of mine, a group study, we discovered there are really no missing tribles. During the period where Assyria toted off the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom most assume wrongly they have been lost for evermore or mixed with others in Europe, but the facts go more like this.

The Northern Kingdoms were allowed to be taken captive because they were evil, practicing witchcraft, worshipping false gods etc. etc. Some of the tribe of Judah who like this kind of lifestyle no doubt migrated to the Northern Kingdom, and likewise the tribe of Levi left the Northern Kingdom and went to Judah so a not to be amongst such evils in the land. What we came to believe/understand through much studies is if you were of God, you did not want to raise you families amongst such evil, so you migrated to Judah, and if you reveled in such deviant behavior you might have migrated to the Northern Kingdoms !! So we came to the conclusion that all the tribes of Israel were in Judah when they were carried away unto Babylon, all of the 10 tribes that were carried off had seed that lived in Judah. So there is actually no 10 lost tribes, the Jews are now Israel in full. Al of the seed are known as Jews.

Yes, there will be a 1000 year reign on earth.

 

[BABerean2]

If it looks like a Jew and sounds like a Jew it is because it is a Jew.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

.

 

[BABerean2]

So there is actually no 10 lost tribes, the Jews are now Israel in full. Al of the seed are known as Jews.

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.

 

[jgr]

So there is actually no 10 lost tribes, the Jews are now Israel in full. Al of the seed are known as Jews

They're now Israel in full, and they're also you and me and all of humanity in full. How will God distinguish the seed when all of humanity is the seed?

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Arabs of Jewish Descent in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Easy. By the real seed (Galatians 3:16,28,29). The way He's always distinguished.

 

[iamlamad]

The STARS are Demons (fallen angels) being cast out of Heaven. Rev. 12 says Satan is cast down and has great wrath because his time is short. In the book of Job the Angels are called "Morning Stars". In Revelation a Star fall to earth and has the key to the bottomless pot, that is an Angel also.



That's actually when the "TROUBLES of Jacob" begins. Dan. 12:1 happens when Satan is cast to earth and chases the Jews who repented into the Wilderness, where Michael protects them. The troubles last for 42 months, of course, that is why the Woman (Israel) of Rev. 12 is protected for 42 months. God's Wrath lasts for the same 42 months, it starts with the First Seal being broken/opened. And the Holy Spirit does destroy the Beast and his minions when Jesus gives the order from his mouth.


It is obvious there has to be a pre tribulation Rapture, I will not venture to deep into that and throw off the subjected content of this thread, but the pre-trib Rapture is obvious to all but 10-15 percent of Christians, Paul spoke of it via the "Harpozo". I have never read Darby, and don't care to, but if he stated 2 Thess 2:3 mean "Departure" then he was 100 percent correct, the first 7 English translations had Departure and the Latin Vulgate used Dicsseo which meant Departure for 1000 years before the English versions used Departure, not until the KJV came along in 1611 did they use "falling away" and that seemed to be the Church of England taking a pot shot at the RCC, as if they were falling away from the faith, go figure. Its obvious what is being spoken of there, it's a gathering together unto Jesus BEFORE THAT DAY (DOTL) or God's Wrath can come upon them. The Man of Sin must also come BEFORE the DOTL. The Church will not be on earth at this time, Rev. 19 tells us that, if we listen.

As per THAT Anti-Christ you are correct, it is referring to a specific MAN who is Ant-Christ. We of course refer to him a the Anti-Christ instead of having several names like the Man of Sin, Little Horn, Assyrian, Son of Perdition etc. etc. so as we can have ONE MONIKER instead of many. We could call him concrete as long as we know who we are speaking of and it wouldn't matter, so those that make a big deal out of this just befuddle me to be honest, it a nonsensical argument.

Sorry, but it is VERY improper to bring something from chapter 12 back to chapter 6. Worse yet, it is silly. The 6th seal is just one of 7 seals preventing the book from being opened. What you read in chapter 12 is INSIDE the book. It is impossible then that anything in chapter 12 refers back to something in chapter 6. Simply impossible. Until the 7th seal is opened, the book is not going to be opened, and no trumpet will be sounded.

God's Wrath lasts for the same 42 months, it starts with the First Seal being broken/opened.
No, God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, just before the 70th week begins at the 7th seal. The first seal was opened in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended.

Correct: the Day of the Lord begins right when His wrath begins - at the 6th seal. The first 5 seals were opened around 32 AD when Jesus ascended. The rapture comes at the 5th seal or between the 5th and 6th, because the church has to be OUT OF HERE before the 6th seal brings in God's wrath.

 

[Revealing Times]

Sorry, but it is VERY improper to bring something from chapter 12 back to chapter 6. Worse yet, it is silly. The 6th seal is just one of 7 seals preventing the book from being opened. What you read in chapter 12 is INSIDE the book. It is impossible then that anything in chapter 12 refers back to something in chapter 6. Simply impossible. Until the 7th seal is opened, the book is not going to be opened, and no trumpet will be sounded.

God's Wrath lasts for the same 42 months, it starts with the First Seal being broken/opened.
No, God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, just before the 70th week begins at the 7th seal. The first seal was opened in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended.

Correct: the Day of the Lord begins right when His wrath begins - at the 6th seal. The first 5 seals were opened around 32 AD when Jesus ascended. The rapture comes at the 5th seal or between the 5th and 6th, because the church has to be OUT OF HERE before the 6th seal brings in God's wrath.

You have no understanding it seems about the timing of the book of Revelation for one thing brother, secondly the Stars are mentioned in Rev. 1 and in Job as being Angels, so I was juxtapositioning events verses events. But Rev. ch. 12 happens at the Midway point, that is why there is 1260 days in which the Woman (Israel) must be protected. The First Seal in Rev. ch. 6 is opened with 1260 days left, thus the Beast rules for 1260 days, these things shouldn't be that hard to understand to be honest. And please spare me your lecture on the book of Revelations timing being "CHANGED" by us who see the true Chronological order of the book of Revelation, it's obvious you are the one who sees the timing of the book of Revelation in an errant manner. I just don't think that you understand the sequential timing of the book of Revelation.

God's Wrath starts with the First Seal, you repeating something over and over is not going to change that fact brother. Just because you allow yourself to not understand when the Wrath of God comes by seeing a vision of people on earth saying "WE ARE IN THE WRATH OF GOD" means nothing as per to when the Wrath started, it only shows when they UNDERSTOOD they were in God's Wrath, and WHY IS THAT ?

Because, wars have always been amidst us, so this Man of Sin Conquering the Mediterranean Sea Region will only be a repeat of what Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome did. We also had WW1 and WW2 which killed nigh 100 million people in the 20th Century, so people are used to wars, so they will not think right off the bat they are in God's Wrath, the First Seal only allows the Anti-Christ to GO FORTH conquering, so why would they think it's anything but another World War at hand ?

Then as it gets worse and he kills 2 Billion people they might start having some concerns, or they might be like the Germans, they might think hes doing a great deed riding the world of Islam, and all religions, just like John Lennon's hokey song advocated for !! But when they see God's "SUPERNATURAL EVENTS" happening, it will all of the sudden hit them like a ton of bricks, "HEY, THIS IS IN CHAPTER 6 OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION !!" And they will only then understand they are in the Wrath of God !! Nowhere does it say the Wrath of God starts at the 6th Seal, that is just a bad understanding brother.

Good grief, Seals were opened in 32 AD !!!!!!! That is a shake your head moment for me brother !! Come on man, where do you guys get this stuff from. I understand, you got it from some man, who got it from some man, etc. etc. so it's mens traditions.

 

[keras]

Nowhere does it say the Wrath of God starts at the 6th Seal, that is just a bad understanding brother.

Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of the Lord' s wrath has come and who can stand?
Whose bad understanding?

Good grief, Seals were opened in 32 AD !!!!!!! That is a shake your head moment for me brother !! Come on man, where do you guys get this stuff from. I understand, you got it from some man, who got it from some man, etc. etc. so it's mens traditions.

That the first five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension, is proved by the fact of all the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters the world has experienced since then. They could hardly have been worse, or mankind would not have survived.
But the clincher is the Fifth Seal, all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.
Whose 'tradition' do you follow?