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1 Peter 4:6 4:6 picks up 3:19 and makes it clear that preaching to the dead in Hades is for the purpose of getting them saved.
Der Alte: "If Jesus was preaching to the evil dead, why was Noah and his family there? What was Jesus' purpose preaching to the evil dead, none of them were saved only Noah and his family."
Duh, Peter never locates "Noah and his family there." Reread 1 Peter 3:19-20.
As for Jesus' purpose: "And I, when I am lifted up, will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."
"I have come not to call the righteous, but sinners (Mark 2:17)."
Der Alte: "You want me to believe that Noah was mentioned in the same sentence as the spirits but he was somewhere else?"
Of course, because 1 Peter 3:19-20 distinguishes Noah and his family who, being obedient, "were saved" from "the spirits in prison (Hades)...who did not obey...in the days of Noah."
Der Alte: "Peter was writing to Christians in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, v .1. Would they have thought that Noah was somewhere else?"
No Peter does NOT clearly imply any such thing. Scholars are all over the landscape on this passage in Peter.Berserk: Of course, because Peter clearly implies that and no modern book Commentary on 1 Peter agrees with you that Noah was "in prison" with the other human spirits.
Der Alte: How do dead people live according to God in the spirit? When and where does this happen?
This is all nice and good but it is NOT stated in scripture anywhere. Just your imagination. I'm not linking to anything outside this post. If you can't explain it here forget about it.Berserk: When the righteous dead lose their physical body they live on as "spirits" in Paradise (Luke 23:43)." In the case of "the spirits in prison" who respond to the preaching of the Gospel (1 Peter 4:6, picking up 3:19), they enter the heavenly Jerusalem the eternally open gates (Rev. 21:25) from their spiritual prison "outside" (22:15: cp. 20:8). Revisit my detailed discussion of how this works in "The Case for Universalism in Revelation" earlier in this thread.
Der Alte: "The passage does not say Noah and his family were saved from "the spirits in prison." "
No, Peter implies that Noah and his family "were saved" from the Flood because, unlike "the spirits in prison," they were obedient and entered the ark.
Der Alte: "No Peter does NOT clearly imply any such thing. Scholars are all over the landscape on this passage in Peter."
Here I can confidently call you bluff and declare that you can find no scholar who believes that Noah was present in "prison" with the other "spirits!"
You cite a few verses of Scripture but fail to actually quote them. I do not have the time or inclination for searching for each passage to find out what they actually say.III. UNIVERSALISM IN PAUL
To help readers sharpen their critical knives, this section begins with an outline of the 4 main arguments for Paul's universalism which will then be discussed in detail. Remember, I'm not trying to make you all universalists; I'm just trying to familiarize you with the best arguments for it from Scripture.
(1) Paul has 3 beliefs that are compatible with universal salvation without explicitly teaching it:
(a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10; Acts 17:30).
(b) God is the Savior of all, though He is more immediately the Savior only of believers (1 Tim. 4:10); for God has brought salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) and wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4).
(c) All Israel will ultimately be saved (Rom. 11:25-26).
(2) Paul's expectation that all Israel will be saved appears in the same chapter that then teaches that human disobedience is an unavoidable part of God's plan to show grace-based mercy on everyone at the final consummation (Rom. 11:32, 36).
(3) Paul envisages everyone in Hell ultimately being saved through confession of Christ as Lord (Phil. 2:9-11, which is based on Isaiah 45:22-23).
(4) Like John the Seer's eschatology, Paul's eschatology envisages a second resurrection of people that completes or fulfills universal salvation (1 Cor. 15:22-24).
But we must be aware this passage does not include robbers, thieves, murderers etc. this passage refers to those who "do instinctively what the Law requires, these...are a Law to themselves. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts."(1a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10, 14-15; Acts 17:30).
For pagans "sin is not imputed where there is no law (Rom. 5:13)." So "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance (Acts 17:30)," though now they are expected to repent when they hear the Gospel. Prior pagan ignorance allows good pagans to be saved at the Last Judgment:
"When Gentiles, who do not possess the Law, do instinctively what the Law requires, these...are a Law to themselves. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse OR PERHAPS EXCUSE THEM ON THE DAY WHEN GOD, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST WILL JUDGE THE SECRET THINGS OF ALL (Rom. 2:14-15)."
What applies to pre-Christian pagans surely also applies for pagans who have near heard the Gospel: they can receive grace amd be saved simply by "doing good" and "seeking" the following things, despite the fact that we can ordinarily not be saved by works:
"To those who by patiently do good seek for glory and honor and immortality He will give eternal life (2:7)."
Are the ones sent to hell extra bad sinners?One standard anti-universalist argument can be summarily dismissed--the argument that universalism trivializes the urgency of embracing the Gospel. Does the prospect of spending long periods of Hell time in unimaginable conscious torment trivialize the Gospel? Please!
When you concentrate on all the Pauline vss. you think support UR make sure you review the Pauline vss, which refute UR. See my post #49, above.***
My next 3 planned posts will present the best and most explicit Pauline texts for universalism.
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context, as you continue to do.Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:
"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."
The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.
This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."
This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:
"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."
In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context, as you continue to do.
See my post #49, earlier in this thread.
I am not fleeing to anything. ALL, as in 100%, of the presumed universalist vss. are refuted by the vss. I quote which are spoken by Jesus, Himself. I am well aware that some NT writers seem to support UR.And you continually flee to other irrelevant texts to avoid the hard work of explaining the universalist texts presented to you. When I have discussed all the relevant universalist texts, I will systematically explain why the texts you cite are irrelevant to these universalist texts.
"God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:
"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."
The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.
This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."
This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:
"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."
In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."
Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:
"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."
The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.
This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."
This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:
"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."
In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."
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