The Great disappearance..

[ViaCrucis]

Epharaem of Nisibisn said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

False. St. Ephraem did not say this.

This comes from Cameron Rhodes, a Latin teacher from Tyndale Theological Seminary, an unaccredited and explicitly Dispensationalist seminary it is worth noting, working from a Latin text from C. P. Caspari's 1890 work, Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des Kirchlichen Alterthums und dem Anfang des Mittelalters. It is supposedly a work by Pseudo-Ephraem.

Over the years every attempt I've made to find more information about the source of Caspari's Latin Pseudo-Ephraem text, but have been unable to find much other than that Caspari believed the Latin text to have been based on an original Greek text written sometime between the 6th and 8th centuries.

Now, there is another apocalyptic work associated with Pseudo-Ephraem, a Syriac text, which is substantially different in content than the Latin text which Caspari presents in his aforementioned work. In the Syriac Pseudo-Ephraem it is very clearly a work discussing the the Muslim conquests of Roman (Byzantine) territory during the Rashidun Caliphate's expansion in early Islamic history, at which time Roman Levant, Syria, and Egypt were conquered by the Rashidun. This Pseudo-Ephraem believes presents the Muslim conquest of Byzantine territory as being evidence of the end of the world, and that Christians would soon face persecution, death, martyrdom, until Christ comes.

If you are quoting the text as actually being the authentic work of St. Ephraem of Syria, then you have very likely quote-mined this from a Dispensationalist website which has either simply copy and pasted it from someplace else having not done any research or critical evaluation of what they are quoting; or else is being deceptive.

Because, and I can't stress this enough, this is absolutely not the work of the 4th century bishop of Nisibis.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Oncedeceived]

False. St. Ephraem did not say this.

This comes from Cameron Rhodes, a Latin teacher from Tyndale Theological Seminary, an unaccredited and explicitly Dispensationalist seminary it is worth noting, working from a Latin text from C. P. Caspari's 1890 work, Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des Kirchlichen Alterthums und dem Anfang des Mittelalters. It is supposedly a work by Pseudo-Ephraem.

Over the years every attempt I've made to find more information about the source of Caspari's Latin Pseudo-Ephraem text, but have been unable to find much other than that Caspari believed the Latin text to have been based on an original Greek text written sometime between the 6th and 8th centuries.

Now, there is another apocalyptic work associated with Pseudo-Ephraem, a Syriac text, which is substantially different in content than the Latin text which Caspari presents in his aforementioned work. In the Syriac Pseudo-Ephraem it is very clearly a work discussing the the Muslim conquests of Roman (Byzantine) territory during the Rashidun Caliphate's expansion in early Islamic history, at which time Roman Levant, Syria, and Egypt were conquered by the Rashidun. This Pseudo-Ephraem believes presents the Muslim conquest of Byzantine territory as being evidence of the end of the world, and that Christians would soon face persecution, death, martyrdom, until Christ comes.

If you are quoting the text as actually being the authentic work of St. Ephraem of Syria, then you have very likely quote-mined this from a Dispensationalist website which has either simply copy and pasted it from someplace else having not done any research or critical evaluation of what they are quoting; or else is being deceptive.

Because, and I can't stress this enough, this is absolutely not the work of the 4th century bishop of Nisibis.

-CryptoLutheran

Here

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here

What do you believe is in the contents of this article which addresses any of the points I raised in my previous post?

I am already aware that Dispensationalists have chosen to cling to Cameron Rhodes' translation of the Latin Pseudo-Ephraem text as an evidence for "the rapture".

The question is if this is valid. And I have, thus far, found no reason to be convinced.

And I am, thus far, unaware of any in depth scholarly resources--as such it is quite difficult for me to form an opinion on what to even do with the Latin Pseudo-Ephraem text.

As such it comes across little different than the poor attempts to misread St. Irenaeus on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Oncedeceived]

What do you believe is in the contents of this article which addresses any of the points I raised in my previous post?

I am already aware that Dispensationalists have chosen to cling to Cameron Rhodes' translation of the Latin Pseudo-Ephraem text as an evidence for "the rapture".

The question is if this is valid. And I have, thus far, found no reason to be convinced.

And I am, thus far, unaware of any in depth scholarly resources--as such it is quite difficult for me to form an opinion on what to even do with the Latin Pseudo-Ephraem text.

As such it comes across little different than the poor attempts to misread St. Irenaeus on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It is always a choice.

No it is not. I cannot choose to believe something that I am not convinced of by evidence. Neither can you.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No it is not. I cannot choose to believe something that I am not convinced of by evidence. Neither can you.

Right. Millions of people suddenly being gone is not evidence, nor is anything else that fits with prophecy...it can be explained away. So your stance then is you would not be inclined to surmise a rapture of believers occurred.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Right. Millions of people suddenly being gone is not evidence, nor is anything else that fits with prophecy...it can be explained away. So your stance then is you would not be inclined to surmise a rapture of believers occurred.

Not exactly. I would not be able to know if it was a rapture or not. The phrase not be inclined indicates I am unwilling. This is untrue. If the rapture happened and there was sufficient evidence for it then I would believe it to be true and go from there. I will wait for this to happen.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Not exactly. I would not be able to know if it was a rapture or not. The phrase not be inclined indicates I am unwilling. This is untrue. If the rapture happened and there was sufficient evidence for it then I would believe it to be true and go from there. I will wait for this to happen.

Well I am confused. In an earlier post you asked how you would know if it were the rapture and not some technological apparatus at work.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Well I am confused. In an earlier post you asked how you would know if it were the rapture and not some technological apparatus at work.

I am willing to believe the rapture happened if there was sufficient evidence of it. I would have to believe it. I would need to have evidence for it that would distinguish the rapture event and some technology I don't know about. I am not biased against religious truth. I am biased against belief without sufficient evidence.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I am willing to believe the rapture happened if there was sufficient evidence of it. I would have to believe it. I would need to have evidence for it that would distinguish the rapture event and some technology I don't know about. I am not biased against religious truth. I am biased against belief without sufficient evidence.

What other evidence would you need if millions of people suddenly disappear? What would be evidence other than the fact?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What other evidence would you need if millions of people suddenly disappear? What would be evidence other than the fact?

The fact that people disappeared would be the phenomenon but how would I know it was from God? I don't know. God would be able to show me evidence that would convince me. How about Jesus taking me to heaven to meet God so He could explain it to me.

 

[Oncedeceived]

The fact that people disappeared would be the phenomenon but how would I know it was from God? I don't know. God would be able to show me evidence that would convince me. How about Jesus taking me to heaven to meet God so He could explain it to me.

Right.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Right.

Why would people disappearing be sufficient evidence for you to believe it was caused by God?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Why would people disappearing be sufficient evidence for you to believe it was caused by God?

Do you mean for you?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Do you mean for you?

No. Why would you believe it was the rapture if you were left?

 

[Oncedeceived]

No. Why would you believe it was the rapture if you were left?

So you are asking if I was still here and millions of Christians were gone, why would I believe it was the rapture? Because millions of Christians would be gone.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So you are asking if I was still here and millions of Christians were gone, why would I believe it was the rapture? Because millions of Christians would be gone.

How could you possibly know they were all Christians? I don't see a link to a god to be the cause over more likely examples such as unknown new technology or an undiscovered natural phenomenon.

 

[Tom 1]

This has been on my mind a great deal lately and so I thought I might ask all the atheists/unbelievers here a question. Many of you were believers at one time or another so most are aware of the Rapture and I was wondering if you find yourselves seeing millions of people gone from the earth what will you believe happened?

Black Friday sale on Proxima b.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How could you possibly know they were all Christians? I don't see a link to a god to be the cause over more likely examples such as unknown new technology or an undiscovered natural phenomenon.

Didn't you say that your family was Christian? Most people have family and friends that are Christian. When these people are gone you will know that Christians are gone.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Didn't you say that your family was Christian? Most people have family and friends that are Christian. When these people are gone you will know that Christians are gone.

This is not what I asked. How do I know only Christians around the world were raptured?