The Great disappearance..

[cloudyday2]

That is simply false. I guess the question should be asked of you as well then.

Does a person need to believe in the rapture to be raptured? Assuming there is a rapture, @ViaCrucis will suddenly find himself in heaven and say, "well I guess I was wrong about the rapture."

Do you agree?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Does a person need to believe in the rapture to be raptured? Assuming there is a rapture, @ViaCrucis will suddenly find himself in heaven and say, "well I guess I was wrong about the rapture."

Do you agree?

Exactly. Why I said the question should be asked of him too.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, but it's quite easy to imagine some kind of magic that can let you see things far off, or many things all at the same time. And there's nothing so remarkable about imagining a marketplace with strange rules that controlled how you could buy and sell.
I'm afraid that, as prophecies go, these are not particularly impressive.

For sure, but they couldn't imagine the technology that made the prophecy fulfillable. The fact that the only way to buy and sell is a mark in the forehead or hand when that is exactly the way digital money is being designed is hard to be explained away when foretold long before anything of that nature could be imagined.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

For sure, but they couldn't imagine the technology that made the prophecy fulfillable. The fact that the only way to buy and sell is a mark in the forehead or hand when that is exactly the way digital money is being designed is hard to be explained away when foretold long before anything of that nature could be imagined.

I think you're reading into the verse more than is there.

Revelation Chapter 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

That doesn't sound like they're buying with the mark; simply that the mark gives them permission to buy.

 

[Rodan6]

What evidence do you have that supports the Scripture has been distorted and promoted in different forms?

Revelations is presented as the recorded vision of John the Apostle while he was in exile. But, examination of this writing reveals there are multiple authors for this work. Perhaps one day, archaeological excavations will recover a truly early copy of this writing that we will be able to compare and authenticate. Unfortunately, I think this is unlikely. Early Christians from the first 300 years had their own agendas, and could not resist the opportunity to impact and mold church doctrines. But, despite these alterations, the heart and soul of Jesus' teachings are well preserved in the scriptures we have. Jesus has called upon us to follow Him. The best way to do so is to carefully peel away the mountains of doctrines "about" Him, and focus on the messages He was trying to say to us.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I think you're reading into the verse more than is there.

Revelation Chapter 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

That doesn't sound like they're buying with the mark; simply that the mark gives them permission to buy.

I didn't say they were buying with the mark. I am saying that they have to have the mark to buy and sell and without our technology there would be no way to ensure that everyone would be unable to do so without it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Revelations is presented as the recorded vision of John the Apostle while he was in exile. But, examination of this writing reveals there are multiple authors for this work. Perhaps one day, archaeological excavations will recover a truly early copy of this writing that we will be able to compare and authenticate. Unfortunately, I think this is unlikely. Early Christians from the first 300 years had their own agendas, and could not resist the opportunity to impact and mold church doctrines. But, despite these alterations, the heart and soul of Jesus' teachings are well preserved in the scriptures we have. Jesus has called upon us to follow Him. The best way to do so is to carefully peel away the mountains of doctrines "about" Him, and focus on the messages He was trying to say to us.

I asked for evidence of this. What is the evidence that there were multiple authors.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I didn't say they were buying with the mark. I am saying that they have to have the mark to buy and sell and without our technology there would be no way to ensure that everyone would be unable to do so without it.

Oh, I see.
But again, it sounds like you're reading too much into it. Saying "nobody could buy or sell without this mark" might simply mean "nobody would be allowed to." I mean, if I say, "Streets have traffic lights and zebra crossings so that cars can't just drive wherever they like," that doesn't mean that they can't in fact drive wherever they like - just that, generally, they don't.
So what we have is a ruler of some kind marking loyal followers. A bit like the Nazis with their yellow-star Jews, but in reverse. Nobody without the ruler's seal of approval is allowed to participate in society.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Oh, I see.
But again, it sounds like you're reading too much into it. Saying "nobody could buy or sell without this mark" might simply mean "nobody would be allowed to." I mean, if I say, "Streets have traffic lights and zebra crossings so that cars can't just drive wherever they like," that doesn't mean that they can't in fact drive wherever they like - just that, generally, they don't.
So what we have is a ruler of some kind marking loyal followers. A bit like the Nazis with their yellow-star Jews, but in reverse. Nobody without the ruler's seal of approval is allowed to participate in society.

Ok, but it remains a question of what you would think if millions of people disappear, then should you see that you are unable to buy or sell unless you accept an inserted digital tracker what would you think? What also would you think if the world was separated into 10 "kingdoms" and there was no longer any separated countries? What if there was a peace treaty signed between Israel and its neighbors, what would you think? What if Damascus is completely destroyed, what would you think of that? What if a world government came into being with one world religion?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Ok, but it remains a question of what you would think if millions of people disappear, then should you see that you are unable to buy or sell unless you accept an inserted digital tracker what would you think? What also would you think if the world was separated into 10 "kingdoms" and there was no longer any separated countries? What if there was a peace treaty signed between Israel and its neighbors, what would you think? What if Damascus is completely destroyed, what would you think of that? What if a world government came into being with one world religion?

If all of that happened, I would probably think that Rapture-believing Christians were correct, and make major changes in my worldview. I would probably become a rapture-believing Christian at this point.
I hope this answers your question.
Of course, right now, I think the chances of this happening are about the same as me learning that Santa Claus is actually really real.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If all of that happened, I would probably think that Rapture-believing Christians were correct, and make major changes in my worldview. I would probably become a rapture-believing Christian at this point.
I hope this answers your question.
Of course, right now, I think the chances of this happening are about the same as me learning that Santa Claus is actually really real.

I understand that you don't believe there is any chance of this happening which aligns with you being an atheist. I have to ask this then as well, so you are a rapture believing Christian, most of those who become Christians after the rapture will be killed; would you save yourself by denouncing Christianity or be killed knowing that there is truly an eternal life after this that is yours if you die?

 

[Halbhh]

Ok, and my question to you personally?

I only see the one question you asked me, which I answered as fully as I can think of aspects about there in the answering post #15. Was there some other question or aspect you'd like to ask on?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I only see the one question you asked me, which I answered as fully as I can think of aspects about there in the answering post #15. Was there some other question or aspect you'd like to ask on?

I am not seeing the connection of the question to your answer. I am asking unbelievers/atheists what they would think, how does that relate to what you answered?

 

[Halbhh]

I am not seeing the connection of the question to your answer. I am asking unbelievers/atheists what they would think, how does that relate to what you answered?

Sorry I didn't mean to be so obscure. I was telling specifically why, from my own experience of talking with a lot of different people face to face, that I think that the putative group you addressed your OP to -- "believers at one time" -- does not exist much (such are quite rare or nonexistent). Of course, some non believers would claim that they did believe! And I explained how what they had wasn't what I understand to be 'faith' -- by talking about a couple of aspects of faith that is the kind Christ meant.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sorry I didn't mean to be so obscure. I was telling specifically why, from my own experience of talking with a lot of different people face to face, that I think that the putative group you addressed your OP to -- "believers at one time" -- does not exist much (such are quite rare or nonexistent). Of course, some non believers would claim that they did believe! And I explained how what they had wasn't what I understand to be 'faith' -- by talking about a couple of aspects of faith that is the kind Christ meant.

Ahhhh, now it makes sense. Gotcha.

 

[Halbhh]

Ahhhh, now it makes sense. Gotcha.

Yes, and there is an encouraging side to it -- those who didn't yet fully believe (enough to ardently seek to hear all Christ said for example) haven't actually rejected Christ, not having yet known Him in some real way yet.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Exactly. Why I said the question should be asked of him too.

If Rapturism turns out to be true, then it will have turned out to be true.

But I have no reason to believe that it is true, because it's neither what Scripture teaches, nor has it ever been the teaching of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think you're reading into the verse more than is there.

Revelation Chapter 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

That doesn't sound like they're buying with the mark; simply that the mark gives them permission to buy.

Correct. That's what the text means. It's talking about being able to partake in the marketplace, that is in the general day-to-day of life in society.

Which is something early Christians faced during the Roman persecutions. For example, during the reign of emperor Decius in the 3rd century it became mandatory for Roman subjects to have a loyalty certificate, by making an offering to the gods and swearing an oath to the emperor. Christians were among those who, for religious reason, obviously refused to do this, which resulted in the Decian Persecution. This was a literal certificate of loyalty, a libellus, a piece of paper that certified that one had fulfilled their civic duty. But this is probably only the most obvious and literal example of this sort of thing.

What St. John in his Apocalypse is talking about is the ongoing struggles of the Church under Roman oppression, which begun under Nero (the name, by the way, which adds up to six hundred and sixty-six). Thus "the beast" in question is probably Nero most directly, though Nero was already dead by the time the Apocalypse was written; but having suffered a "mortal wound" had, as it were, been revived in later Roman persecution; so in a much broader sense "the beast" is a reference to the imperial power of Rome, and hence why the harlot named "Babylon" later in the text, which is the city of Rome itself, rides upon a beast of imperial color.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, and there is an encouraging side to it -- those who didn't yet fully believe (enough to ardently seek to hear all Christ said for example) haven't actually rejected Christ, not having yet known Him in some real way yet.

That is encouraging.

 

[cvanwey]

Can you clarify a bit first?

1. How would I know that millions of people were gone?
2. In what time frame?
3. Did any of these people become missing, right in front of my eyes?

.