The Great disappearance..

[cvanwey]

1. I think that would be obvious.
2. In a split second
3. Very possibly.

Sounds to me like someone may have been watching the movie "Left Behind"?

I must admit.. If millions disappeared, this would have to be one of the plausible options to greatly consider. Why? Because I too have seen this movie, and was also taught this concept as a child.

Okay. Now what?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Correct. That's what the text means. It's talking about being able to partake in the marketplace, that is in the general day-to-day of life in society.

Which is something early Christians faced during the Roman persecutions. For example, during the reign of emperor Decius in the 3rd century it became mandatory for Roman subjects to have a loyalty certificate, by making an offering to the gods and swearing an oath to the emperor. Christians were among those who, for religious reason, obviously refused to do this, which resulted in the Decian Persecution. This was a literal certificate of loyalty, a libellus, a piece of paper that certified that one had fulfilled their civic duty. But this is probably only the most obvious and literal example of this sort of thing.

What St. John in his Apocalypse is talking about is the ongoing struggles of the Church under Roman oppression, which begun under Nero (the name, by the way, which adds up to six hundred and sixty-six). Thus "the beast" in question is probably Nero most directly, though Nero was already dead by the time the Apocalypse was written; but having suffered a "mortal wound" had, as it were, been revived in later Roman persecution; so in a much broader sense "the beast" is a reference to the imperial power of Rome, and hence why the harlot named "Babylon" later in the text, which is the city of Rome itself, rides upon a beast of imperial color.

-CryptoLutheran

That makes a lot of sense. This is an issue I'm happy to have the non-Rapture believing Christians explain to their more excitable cousins.

 

[Oncedeceived]

That makes a lot of sense. This is an issue I'm happy to have the non-Rapture believing Christians explain to their more excitable cousins.

The explanation has been given and refuted. However, I am not going to drift from the original intent of this thread and debate doctrine of Lutheran vs. Christian denominations and their differing views.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Disclaimer: the "rapture" is a modern fringe belief that dates to around the 1820's; it has never been the teaching of historic, mainstream Christianity. Mainstream Christianity believes in Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead. But the idea that one day millions of Christians will suddenly vanish into thin air has never been Christian doctrine.

-CryptoLutheran

Epharaem of Nisibisn said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sounds to me like someone may have been watching the movie "Left Behind"?

No someone reads the Bible.

I must admit.. If millions disappeared, this would have to be one of the plausible options to greatly consider. Why? Because I too have seen this movie, and was also taught this concept as a child.

Okay. Now what?

Why would you think the movie had anything to do with this thread?

If you were convinced this is what happened what would you do?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The explanation has been given and refuted. However, I am not going to drift from the original intent of this thread and debate doctrine of Lutheran vs. Christian denominations and their differing views.

Prophecy needs to clear a high bar to be accepted as proven. This doesn't qualify, I'm afraid. Get back to me when people start floating up into the air.

 

[cvanwey]

If you were convinced this is what happened what would you do?

Likely the same thing I would do if I found out some other opposing God existed. Decide whether I wish to follow their dictates as instructed, or, instead be sent to a place of torture

 

[Oncedeceived]

Prophecy needs to clear a high bar to be accepted as proven. This doesn't qualify, I'm afraid. Get back to me when people start floating up into the air.

I won't be able to. However, you said earlier that you would be a rapture believing Christian should those things I cited happened. If your worldview was changed, knowing that most people who do become Christians will be killed; would you denounce Christianity to survive this life or stand firm in this new found Christianity and die for eternal life?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Likely the same thing I would do if I found out some other opposing God existed. Decide whether I wish to follow their dictates as instructed, or, instead be sent to a place of torture

So knowing Christianity is true you would perhaps rather be sent to a place of eternal torture if that is what you decided?

 

[cvanwey]

So knowing Christianity is true you would perhaps rather be sent to a place of eternal torture if that is what you decided?

If Christianity is true, then the proposition appears compulsory. Coercive even...

But I do not think it's true. And you can keep going on asking your hypothetical questions. But I'm not going to hold my breath, because your hypothetical is no more or less probable than any other proposed hypothetical propositional threat - for which I also spend very little time contemplating.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If Christianity is true, then the proposition appears compulsory. Coercive even...

But I do not think it's true. And you can keep going on asking your hypothetical questions. But I'm not going to hold my breath, because your hypothetical is no more or less probable than any other proposed hypothetical propositional threat - for which I also spend very little time contemplating.

Yet you spend quite a bit of time here...why is that?

 

[cvanwey]

Yet you spend quite a bit of time here...why is that?

1. It is a place for me to vet ideas, which may otherwise cause discord among my own family and friends; as most of them are Christian. Too emotional...

2. Believe it or not, the topic of religion forces me to learn quite a lot, about quite a lot. 'Religion' makes many claims. It then makes me study up on various topics, for which I might never engage, on their own. When someone makes an assertion, for which I feel I disagree, I might investigate accordingly.

3. I'm still curious as to why others believe in a concept which no longer makes any sense.

4. I sometimes like to debate. It keeps my brain sharp, hopefully

******************

My turn...

1. Why are you in a debate forum, where you are pressed to 'prove' your faith against unbelievers?

2. You die, and come to find out a completely differing God exists. This God tells you that you spent your life worshiping the wrong and non-existent god. This God then grants a similar ultimatum, but in this case seems a bit better; as you are given a true second chance (after you die) to change your mind. He states, 'okay, you know I exist now. Are you going to':

A. Learn to love me, worship me, follow me, and do as I say?
B. Reject my loving request, for which I will then through you into a place of eternal torment?

 

[Oncedeceived]

1. It is a place for me to vet ideas, which may otherwise cause discord among my own family and friends; as most of them are Christian. Too emotional...

Understandable.

2. Believe it or not, the topic of religion forces me to learn quite a lot, about quite a lot. 'Religion' makes many claims. It then makes me study up on various topics, for which I might never engage, on their own. When someone makes an assertion, for which I feel I disagree, I might investigate accordingly.

Same here.

3. I'm still curious as to why others believe in a concept which no longer makes any sense.

Same here, I find atheism rarely makes sense to me.

4. I sometimes like to debate. It keeps my brain sharp, hopefully

Same here. Although, debate is rarely life changing for anyone.

******************

My turn...

1. Why are you in a debate forum, where you are pressed to 'prove' your faith against unbelievers?

If you knew that the Christian God was real would you not want to encourage others to live eternally peacefully rather than in eternal suffering?

2. You die, and come to find out a completely differing God exists. This God tells you that you spent your life worshiping the wrong and non-existent god. This God then grants a similar ultimatum, but in this case seems a bit better; as you are given a true second chance (after you die) to change your mind. He states, 'okay, you know I exist now. Are you going to':

A. Learn to love me, worship me, follow me, and do as I say?
B. Reject my loving request, for which I will then through you into a place of eternal torment?

What many unbelievers don't understand is there is a difference between knowing and believing. I can believe sincerely that something is true but that is just belief. Knowing something is true is completely different. I know God exists because He has revealed Himself to me. There are things that I can know and see that confirm that existence. If that wasn't the case, I would pick A. Eternal suffering is not a pleasant existence I am sure.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Double post.

 

[cvanwey]

If you knew that the Christian God was real would you not want to encourage others to live eternally peacefully rather than in eternal suffering?

What many unbelievers don't understand is there is a difference between knowing and believing. I can believe sincerely that something is true but that is just belief. Knowing something is true is completely different. I know God exists because He has revealed Himself to me. There are things that I can know and see that confirm that existence. If that wasn't the case, I would pick A. Eternal suffering is not a pleasant existence I am sure.

As you eluded to above, 'debate is rarely life changing.' I could 'crush' or completely 'defeat' every single point you bring forth, even to your own personal satisfaction, and you would likely still walk away a believer. Why? Just watch this video when you have 24 minutes to kill

But your above response is quite interesting. It's almost as if you admit/reconcile, that Christianity is a compulsory proposition; which can also be classified as coercive or an ultimatum? Is this really 'love'?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This has been on my mind a great deal lately and so I thought I might ask all the atheists/unbelievers here a question. Many of you were believers at one time or another so most are aware of the Rapture and I was wondering if you find yourselves seeing millions of people gone from the earth what will you believe happened?

Maybe, The problem is how could I distinguish this miracle from a technology developed to eradicate people that I don't know about? How do I directly connect it to the Christian God?

 

[Jok]

Disclaimer: the "rapture" is a modern fringe belief that dates to around the 1820's

What a buzzkill

 

[Oncedeceived]

As you eluded to above, 'debate is rarely life changing.' I could 'crush' or completely 'defeat' every single point you bring forth, even to your own personal satisfaction, and you would likely still walk away a believer. Why? Just watch this video when you have 24 minutes to kill

To my own satisfaction...most arguments that atheists use are due to misunderstanding and context. I will give it a view when I have time.

But your above response is quite interesting. It's almost as if you admit/reconcile, that Christianity is a compulsory proposition; which can also be classified as coercive or an ultimatum? Is this really 'love'?

What do define as love?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Maybe, The problem is how could I distinguish this miracle from a technology developed to eradicate people that I don't know about? How do I directly connect it to the Christian God?

It is always a choice.

 

[cvanwey]

What do define as love?

I admit the term 'love' may not have one catch-all definition.

But I'm willing to bet, or wager, that we can agree that coercion, or an ultimatum, where the only alternative realm is a place of eternal torment, likely does not qualify?

Especially if the creator has the power to create any environment He chooses. While, at the very same time, states He 'loves' His creation?