The Gospel- this one's for you- bloodygrace.

[FredVB]

It may be that what I responded to is "watering down" the meaning of sin, but I am not doing that with my position. Sin is so serious, as offending Yahweh it causes death. We contribute to that, and the curse in this world, with that still. We really should stop. Believers are enabled, and we don't have to sin, with having a way out. But what is sin? Going against our conscience is, going against what the Bible says is wrong is, and things determined from that, with God's Spirit showing us such. But we should never be presumptuous to say or think we are not sinning, there would be sin in such presumption, as with pride. But focus on God does not produce sin.

Sins
Transgressions
Iniquities
What you describe more properly falls into the middle classification: transgressions.
"Sins" (in the original languages in both testaments) means to aim an arrow at a target but missing the bull's eye, i.e. the "mark." In our parlance it is TRYING to walk in obedience, but failing to do so.
In fact, prior to 1600, the word "sin" in English was also an archery term meaning to miss the target.
How is that definition of sin something to be "desired?"

Apart from being with a spiritual nature, there are temptations to some sins that appeal to desires. As I say, with being in Christ and being redeemed to Yahweh God, sealed with God's Spirit in us, we have a way out from that and don't have to, if we choose that way.

 

[bloodygrace]

I just have to add one more thing to my response to the "If you love Me, do whatever you want" poster. Once you have been drawn to Christ and are born again - that NEW creation with a NEW heart that is led by the Holy Spirit (He becomes our Guardian in place of the law) - You CAN do whatever you want, because you are BRAND new with all NEW "wants." What I now want is 180 degrees different from what my "Old Self" (the old [wo]man of sin) would have wanted. Now, my New Heart actively looks for ways to Love God more and to demonstrate that love in loving service to my fellowman. I'm ALL brand new, from the inside out, not just the Old Me with a fresh coat of paint to make me look good!!! Am I now perfect? Oh, no!!! But I have the covering of Christ's perfect imputed righteousness in place of my failed filthy-rags efforts at perfection. When God looks at me, he sees only the perfection of His beloved Son.

Amen.

 

[Gary K]

The commandments in stone were called a ministry of death 2Cor. 3:7 and were also a shadow that pointed forward to having God's love written in the heart. Jesus came to establish a kingdom of love so you have to be filled with the love of Christ to be a member. Law keepers are excluded from the kingdom of love.

I would point you to IICorinthians 3:3.

IICorinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

What Paul is saying is that the Spirit of God is writing, not on tables of stone anymore, but on the fleshly tables of our hearts. What is He writing that God once wrote upon tables of stone? The 10 commandments for they are the only thing that the Bible tells us that God Himself physically wrote upon here on earth.

So, in your reading of scripture God is writing a ministry of death upon the hearts of Christians. Where do you get support for the idea that God writes death in our hearts?

When we go back to the OT we find the promise of the new covenant. What is this promise?

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:*n7
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Paul quotes verse 33 in Hebrews 8:10, and 10:26, when speaking of the new covenant. So, in Paul's mind the the 10 commandments were the new covenant. What was new about the covenant? It was made upon better promises.

Hebrews 8: 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Why are these promises better? Because the children of Israel made the promise found in the old covenant.

Exodus 19: 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.

God's promises are always better than humanity's promises for God always keep His promises. Human beings cannot say that for we often fail of being able to keep our promises. The Israelites failed miserably in keeping their promises. They disobeyed God on a regular basis, and once they found themselves in the land of Canaan they became even worse at fulfilling that promise. Thus, the covenant was broken because it was founded upon faulty promises.

I'd just like to insert here that I don't look down upon the Israelites/Jews for not being obedient to God. All of humanity has the same problems obeying God that they did when we rely upon our own power. None of us are any better. All of humanity is alike in that respect. We all have fallen natures.

So, let's go back to IICorinthians 3:3. Paul is saying that the Corinthians were the written message of Jesus which was written, not upon tables of stone, but upon the tables of their hearts. What is the message of Jesus? What is His testimony, His witness? Paul speaks of this in his first letter to the Corinthians, in ICorinthians 1:6.

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

What evidence was truly given that Jesus is God? That testimony is His perfect, sinless life. In other words, His keeping the commandments of God. In fact, God called the 10 commandments His testimony in the OT.

16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Exodus 30: 6 And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee.]

What was kept in the ark? The 10 commandments written upon tables of stone, Aaron's rod that budded, and a pot of manna. Only one of those objects fits the description of being the testimony God gave to Moses. In fact, in Strong's concordance the Greek word translated as testimony in ICorinthians 1:6 is actually defined as referring to none other than the Decalogue, which is the 10 commandments.

All of this points to the new covenant being the 10 commandments being written upon our hearts. They are the testimony of Jesus and always have been for He showed us exactly what a life based upon them looks like. That our hearts must be renewed before we can keep them is also nothing new. David knew this:

Psalm 51: 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Jesus confirmed this was old news to Nicodemus.

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Jesus was not a liar nor was He unjust, or He could not have perfectly kept the 10 commandments, so when He castigates Nicodemus for not knowing he needed to be born again, and not even understanding what it meant, Jesus is doing so because this is taught in the OT. If it wasn't Jesus could not have held Nicodemus responsible for not knowing.

This new birth was referred to as circumcision of the heart in the OT. Remember God gave circumcision as the sign of being one of His people, and He told the Israelites that He would circumcise their hearts.
He first told the Israelites what He required of them, verse 12, and then told them they needed their hearts circumcised, and that they should do this.

Deuteronomy 10: 12 ¶And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear theLord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord’s thy God, the earthalso, with all that therein is.
15 Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

How were they to circumcise their hearts? God promised to do it for them.

Deuteronomy 30: 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And, Paul, in the NT, refers to this.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The Bible is just too clear on all of this. The new birth is nothing new. The law of God has not been done away with. Both have always been requirements to truly follow God, and will always continue to be so.

 

[FredVB]

I would point you to IICorinthians 3:3.

What Paul is saying is that the Spirit of God is writing, not on tables of stone anymore, but on the fleshly tables of our hearts. What is He writing that God once wrote upon tables of stone? The 10 commandments for they are the only thing that the Bible tells us that God Himself physically wrote upon here on earth.

So, in your reading of scripture God is writing a ministry of death upon the hearts of Christians.

When we go back to the OT we find the promise of the new covenant. What is this promise?

Paul quotes verse 33 in Hebrews 8:10, and 10:26, when speaking of the new covenant. So, in Paul's mind the the 10 commandments were the new covenant. What was new about the covenant? It was made upon better promises.

Why are these promises better? Because the children of Israel made the promise found in the old covenant.

God's promises are always better than humanity's promises for God always keep His promises. Human beings cannot say that for we often fail of being able to keep our promises. The Israelites failed miserably in keeping their promises. They disobeyed God on a regular basis, and once they found themselves in the land of Canaan they became even worse at fulfilling that promise. Thus, the covenant was broken because it was founded upon faulty promises.

I'd just like to insert here that I don't look down upon the Israelites/Jews for not being obedient to God. All of humanity has the same problems obeying God that they did when we rely upon our own power. None of us are any better. All of humanity is alike in that respect. We all have fallen natures.

The ministry of death was that in the old covenant, there were consequences for breaking commandments, this involved death. For some serious violations there was capital punishment, as death by being stoned. For offences generally, death still had to come, and for still to be in standing to come to Yahweh, there had to be an atoning death on behalf of such who had sinned. An animal was used, but that was not effective, but it was permitted for such to see the need and have their faith that is needed enabled, and the effective death on their behalf, as for others, according to the need shown from the old covenant, was that of Jesus Christ for us. This happening with the revelation that it is through Jesus is the new covenant, that death of others is not needed, Jesus did all that was effective, with only Jesus being enough for that. There is no ministry of death remaining in this. And in having the faith with knowing Jesus, the Spirit of God resides in those of us who are believers, and we live the commandments from Yahweh from the heart, if we will, rather than from outward obedience that we would seek from their being written, as they were on the tablets of stone.

People of Israel that were still people of God still were having the irrevocable promises from Yahweh to them which were not conditionally given. There is a time coming as was stated that those who are remaining of all the people of Israel will be saved.

 

[Gary K]

The ministry of death was that in the old covenant, there were consequences for breaking commandments, this involved death. For some serious violations there was capital punishment, as death by being stoned. For offences generally, death still had to come, and for still to be in standing to come to Yahweh, there had to be an atoning death on behalf of such who had sinned. An animal was used, but that was not effective, but it was permitted for such to see the need and have their faith that is needed enabled, and the effective death on their behalf, as for others, according to the need shown from the old covenant, was that of Jesus Christ for us. This happening with the revelation that it is through Jesus is the new covenant, that death of others is not needed, Jesus did all that was effective, with only Jesus being enough for that. There is no ministry of death remaining in this. And in having the faith with knowing Jesus, the Spirit of God resides in those of us who are believers, and we live the commandments from Yahweh from the heart, if we will, rather than from outward obedience that we would seek from their being written, as they were on the tablets of stone.

People of Israel that were still people of God still were having the irrevocable promises from Yahweh to them which were not conditionally given. There is a time coming as was stated that those who are remaining of all the people of Israel will be saved.

Which version of the Bible do you read and study?

 

[FredVB]

Which version of the Bible do you read and study?

It seems there would be reasons you would ask that, maybe to conclude something from some answer you would get to that, which you would say. To really answer you on that would be with a rather lengthy response, so I would like knowing why it is asked that I should answer. It does not seem relevant to anything I said. I was not actually posting to disagree with any point in your post.

 

[Gary K]

It seems there would be reasons you would ask that, maybe to conclude something from some answer you would get to that, which you would say. To really answer you on that would be with a rather lengthy response, so I would like knowing why it is asked that I should answer. It does not seem relevant to anything I said. I was not actually posting to disagree with any point in your post.

The very first sentence of your previous post said there are no longer consequences for breaking the commandments.

The ministry of death was that in the old covenant, there were consequences for breaking commandments, this involved death.

I was wondering, therefore, if the version, or versions, of the Bible you study from include Galatians 5:17-21. Paul's statement there says there is still a pretty severe, i.e. life and death, consequence for breaking the commandments. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Therefore, to not inherit the kingdom of heaven is death. That's a pretty severe consequence.

I wasn't trying to trap you as I know some versions of the Bible have undergone a lot of changes. Thus the question.

 

[FredVB]

The very first sentence of your previous post said there are no longer consequences for breaking the commandments.

I was wondering, therefore, if the version, or versions, of the Bible you study from include Galatians 5:17-21. Paul's statement there says there is still a pretty severe, i.e. life and death, consequence for breaking the commandments. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Therefore, to not inherit the kingdom of heaven is death. That's a pretty severe consequence.

I wasn't trying to trap you as I know some versions of the Bible have undergone a lot of changes. Thus the question.

Look again. I was not quite saying there are no longer consequences for breaking commandments. Death is the ultimate consequence, but justice is not full with that, for there are many sins still that are contrary to Yahweh's commandments, and some sin much more than others, Yahweh's uncompromised justice will have more consequence than just that death. Even for believers there are the consequences, but as said in that passage, we, those of us who are really believers and in Christ, are not under the law, and the consequences that there are Christ bore for us, even for justice the law called for, as it was in the old covenant, which with his perfect and divine nature paid what we could never fulfill.

The consent of the people of Israel in Judaism have their fuller consent and so they have greater responsibility to obedience. There is no way though for gentiles to ever came to Yahweh, without the Jewish way of full obedience, which is not really possible now, or coming to Christ in repentant faith, which is available to all. Those who live in such ways violating commandments with still sinning are not really repentant, and so are not effectively in Christ, with that as evidence showing it.

I have read the Bible for several decades, and studied it, and in the course of that I have used close to twenty versions, though with using a few much more than others. All the versions included that passage. I decided not to make a full list of them to post here, it seems irrelevant. But if it is important to you, early on I was using the King James Bible a lot. It is a good version, but I don't agree with the King James only believers, and even if you are among them, I have to say, there isn't good basis I see for that position. It is desirable for many Bible readers these days to have a version in more updated language. I have used other good versions, but I have always felt I might find something for it that is better. I have recently been using the New King James Version a lot, but just now I have started trying out the World English Bible, I will see how that is, and I will still try other versions. That is all I think I should say about this.

 

[tall73]

Amen GrammyJ. Be careful though, formers get booted on this forum. Believe me I know. I have to on at least my 3rd or 4th username by now, lol

If you mean they get booted from the Adventist section, that is because it is a fellowship only section for non-Adventists. Just go to the following forum do debate law and sabbath topics:

Sabbath and The Law

 

[BobRyan]

In case you never figured it out, the seventh day Sabbath pointed forward to the finished work of Christ .

No it did not. Adam and Eve had absolutely zero context for "the future work of Christ" or the "finished work of Christ -- future" in their sinless home in Eden where we find Sabbath first defined, sanctified and observed.

As we all know -- Bible details matter.

 

[FredVB]

Adam and Eve had absolutely zero context for "the future work of Christ" or the "finished work of Christ -- future" in their sinless home in Eden where we find Sabbath first defined, sanctified and observed.
As we all know -- Bible details matter.

The finished work of Christ means the priests anf sacrifices are not needed, and consequence of Yahweh's judgment is not on repentant believers, that they have direct relationship with Yahweh through him.