The Gospel- this one's for you- bloodygrace.

bloodygrace

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We are not denying that fact. Part of imparted grace is the Holy Spirit strengthening us to be able to "do all things."

As Asher Intrater once said: On Shavuot [pentecost] coming out of Egypt God told us what to do. On another Shavuot some 1500 years later He gave us the power to do it.

The Holy Spirit empowers us to walk in the spirit not return to the letter of the law or the Torah.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6
 
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ricker

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Hebrews 8:10-
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It doesn't have any thing to do with what any of us THINK. It has to do with what God SAYS. I see so many posts start and finish with the word THINK.

John 14:15-17-
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21-
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

There you go! You think that the Law given to Moses and the Children of Israel is still binding, just as I said you would.
 
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Dave-W

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The Holy Spirit empowers us to walk in the spirit not return to the letter of the law or the Torah.
Romans 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Sounds to me like walking in the Spirit will lead us into obeying the Law.
 
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bloodygrace

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Romans 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Sounds to me like walking in the Spirit will lead us into obeying the Law.

The law is spiritual (Rom. 7:6) so we have to spiritual to keep it, duh! Your law keeping is a carnal fleshly attempt at keeping the letter of the law or the Torah.
 
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Dave-W

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The law is spiritual (Rom. 7:6) so we have to spiritual to keep it, duh! Your law keeping is a carnal fleshly attempt at keeping the letter of the law or the Torah.
You keep making this claim that Torah and "law of the Spirit" are 2 different things that look nothing alike.

I would like for you to prove that from scripture.
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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I'd like to see someone walking in the spirit "carnal fleshy " anything. Allowing the Spirit into your existence comes from obedience. It's a two step deal. It's not going to attack you- you have to allow it. It has to be given you which entails keeping His commandments. Scripture plainly states that gates are narrow and the path do destruction is broad and FEW make it. THEN more scripture STEARNLY tells us that there are false spirits that mimic the genuine- CLOSELY. Have ANY given any thought to the fact that the spirit you entertain could be deception? I'm not saying to anyone that YOU have one, or you over there or maybe you, in the back row, but considering the prejudice and heavy words that are constantly thrown at Sabbath keepers that slightly resemble a "less than holy" attitude and the fact that Jesus said to keep His commandments AND He would send another Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, AND the fact that MOST people think they are saved AND don't profess to keep any commandments because by grace alone you have salvation while they continue to transgress the law "at will" , had it ever dawned on any of you that the spirit you possess MAY not be the one you believe it is? Maybe I'm different, and even more carnal than most, but I grew up thinking about death and self harm and suicide every day. Even entertained the idea of killing a couple of folks I believed needed it a time or two. One, who caused me great harm, but I knew had a screw loose, would've went quickly out of compassion (because that's my nature, I'd like to think) and one I entertained torturing first because he was plain evil and made everyone's life around him miserable, but my mom knew his mom and my mom made me promise to "blow it off" for his mom's sake. I made that promise. With STEARN resentment! Never tried it on either account, nor suicide either, but carnal thoughts are human, I suppose. I had the self-harm thoughts my entire life and supposed they were normal and knew and saw folks around me who had short tempers and would literally SNAP,and others who were an emotional basket case, and I just KNEW the manic depressive people just had to think about self harm constantly as most yapped about it all the time, while the short tempered monsters surely had thoughts of harming others- and often did. So, I didn't think too much of my predicament UNTIL God led me to set out in my pilgrimage, being FIRST led to keep the commandments, humbling myself on my face, knowing I'm just a wretched speck in the big scheme of things- not being worthy of anything, much less- MERCY, and finally to devoting my life to the study and service to the Creator of the universe! I NEVER EVER had another thought about hurting myself or wanting to die. Of course, I know I'll die, as will all eventually, but obviously these hideous thoughts were demonic in origin. I deemed them regular ol thoughts until they went away - like so much vice I used trying to aid in this untimely death. So all I know ARE the things that have happened to me and when I sit down to study God's WORD, the pages seem to come to life at times and conviction pushes me to dig deeper and humble myself WAY MORE. Like I said, maybe I'm different , but TOTAL obedience seems to be working for me and it seems to me that an imposter would want you to cut corners, rather to go above and beyond while still feeling I fall short . Maybe the Spirit was told by God that " This ones got a lot of make-up to do", but I don't think so. I have received Grace, mercy and hopefully the gift of salvation. I think God wants us to be humble and obedient, constantly cleaning house and knowing the pecking order. That would consist of worshipping the way He says, not the way"I feel" or think I'm entitled to. We do live in an age where people THINK they are entitled WAY more than they are. Society has done this. Political correctness mixed with equality and human rights. Governments have done this and churches have done it as well! Salvation is a gift. A VALUABLE gift that leaves little room for vanity. God owes us NOTHING and states that MANY receive their reward in this life. Peace be with you.
 
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bloodygrace

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You keep making this claim that Torah and "law of the Spirit" are 2 different things that look nothing alike.

I would like for you to prove that from scripture.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6

BOOM!
 
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bloodygrace

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I'd like to see someone walking in the spirit "carnal fleshy " anything. Allowing the Spirit into your existence comes from obedience. It's a two step deal. It's not going to attack you- you have to allow it. It has to be given you which entails keeping His commandments. Scripture plainly states that gates are narrow and the path do destruction is broad and FEW make it. THEN more scripture STEARNLY tells us that there are false spirits that mimic the genuine- CLOSELY. Have ANY given any thought to the fact that the spirit you entertain could be deception? I'm not saying to anyone that YOU have one, or you over there or maybe you, in the back row, but considering the prejudice and heavy words that are constantly thrown at Sabbath keepers that slightly resemble a "less than holy" attitude and the fact that Jesus said to keep His commandments AND He would send another Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, AND the fact that MOST people think they are saved AND don't profess to keep any commandments because by grace alone you have salvation while they continue to transgress the law "at will" , had it ever dawned on any of you that the spirit you possess MAY not be the one you believe it is? Maybe I'm different, and even more carnal than most, but I grew up thinking about death and self harm and suicide every day. Even entertained the idea of killing a couple of folks I believed needed it a time or two. One, who caused me great harm, but I knew had a screw loose, would've went quickly out of compassion (because that's my nature, I'd like to think) and one I entertained torturing first because he was plain evil and made everyone's life around him miserable, but my mom knew his mom and my mom made me promise to "blow it off" for his mom's sake. I made that promise. With STEARN resentment! Never tried it on either account, nor suicide either, but carnal thoughts are human, I suppose. I had the self-harm thoughts my entire life and supposed they were normal and knew and saw folks around me who had short tempers and would literally SNAP,and others who were an emotional basket case, and I just KNEW the manic depressive people just had to think about self harm constantly as most yapped about it all the time, while the short tempered monsters surely had thoughts of harming others- and often did. So, I didn't think too much of my predicament UNTIL God led me to set out in my pilgrimage, being FIRST led to keep the commandments, humbling myself on my face, knowing I'm just a wretched speck in the big scheme of things- not being worthy of anything, much less- MERCY, and finally to devoting my life to the study and service to the Creator of the universe! I NEVER EVER had another thought about hurting myself or wanting to die. Of course, I know I'll die, as will all eventually, but obviously these hideous thoughts were demonic in origin. I deemed them regular ol thoughts until they went away - like so much vice I used trying to aid in this untimely death. So all I know ARE the things that have happened to me and when I sit down to study God's WORD, the pages seem to come to life at times and conviction pushes me to dig deeper and humble myself WAY MORE. Like I said, maybe I'm different , but TOTAL obedience seems to be working for me and it seems to me that an imposter would want you to cut corners, rather to go above and beyond while still feeling I fall short . Maybe the Spirit was told by God that " This ones got a lot of make-up to do", but I don't think so. I have received Grace, mercy and hopefully the gift of salvation. I think God wants us to be humble and obedient, constantly cleaning house and knowing the pecking order. That would consist of worshipping the way He says, not the way"I feel" or think I'm entitled to. We do live in an age where people THINK they are entitled WAY more than they are. Society has done this. Political correctness mixed with equality and human rights. Governments have done this and churches have done it as well! Salvation is a gift. A VALUABLE gift that leaves little room for vanity. God owes us NOTHING and states that MANY receive their reward in this life. Peace be with you.

You are very confused. Grace delivers us from having to keep the law. Even atheists can keep the law so that should tell you something.
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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Mosaic law that y'all keep hollering about are all the 612/613 ordinances, handwritten on parchment, rolled up in a holster on the OUTSIDE of the arc. . Not the commandments of God under His MERCY SEAT, in stone. It's the ones on a rock that have the first 4 telling you how to treat God and the last 6 reminding you how to treat people. Surely you have heard of it.
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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You are very confused. Grace delivers us from having to keep the law.
I know this is a difficult subject, but try to stay with me. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. It's Him offering the possibility of eternal life to those who don't deserve it. Do you kill people? Willfully search out your neighbors wife when he's not around? Grab a $20 out of the church donation bucket when noone is looking? OR, do you make an honest attempt at being a decent human being, humbling yourself before God Almighty, repenting for your sins while sincerely asking His forgiveness for being a filthy, unworthy human? Do you go through life with a sincere desire to allow the Spirit of the Holy God to work in your life so the very fact that His only Son, Jesus Christ didn't die for us in vain and make He AND His teachings manifest in us? Why do you think Jesus traveled everywhere teaching all the parables about His Father's kingdom AND how to enter into it? Grace is being able to use Christ's sacrifice since we don't sacrifice little animals. The other side of the coin is repentance. Many will knock and will say- let me in, let me in, and He will say BEGONE, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. This is out of His mouth. Do you know what workers of iniquity means? You, who practice lawlessness. So you can stand on your side of the fence and try to obtain salvation,and I'll stand on mine, and try to do the same and maybe we can talk about fishing or something. Peace be with you.
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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Ok, here's a very simple analogy. Hebrews 10:16-

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Ok, there's a reason He's got hearts AND minds. Stay with me. It's new testament and AFTER THOSE THINGS, right, so it's later on somewhat. Slightly different from the first. What's the difference in mind and heart. He puts the laws into our mind so we KNOW it. Frontal cortex. Rational reasoning. I think, therefore I am.....and all that. On the heart, it's an act of LOVE to be obedient. It's not a legalistic anything. In fact, for genuine LOVE, it's gotta be by choice. Any horse turns left if you beat it to turn that way. For God's remnant- they KNOW. They've got that "sense", that feeling that reconfirmed by the Holy Spirit. They LOVE to do it. Yes, it comes back to Rev 12:17- the remnant - Those who follow the LAMB , wheresoever He goes. The Spirit shows us all things. He leads to Jesus ALWAYS. In ALL truth.
Rev 12:17-
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You folks know what the dragon is. Satan. Then, the remnant of her (her is the church, not the false harlott one, Christ's church- it ain't a particular denomination,its people who follow the Lamb) of her seed (last of the Mohicans, out of what hasn't died off or been decieved and "shaken out") which keep the commandments of God (just 10) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Ok, so what's the testimony of Jesus Christ. You can ask 100 active church people in ANY denomination and MOST will say they know what it is EVERYTIME, just like GOSPEL, but then you say,ok what is it? The draw a blank. So let's see EXACTLY what it is.
Rev 19:10-
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So I hope that everyone sees this. And thats a wrap for this evening. Please put your chairs back under the tables, rinse out your cups and turn off the light on your way out. Peace be with you.
 
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mmksparbud

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Another thread on grace and the law=========
Does anyone here read Hebrews?
the Levitical, animal sacrificial laws were all done away with at the cross. Jesus is now our High Priest, not any mortal man and it is His blood that saves not rituals that pointed to His blood.
The law of God in His commandments have never been done away with. We are saved through grace, period. Because we are saved we love the Lord and keep His commandment's.
Maybe on this thread someone can tell me where in the bible it says any man can eliminate a direct command from God which He wrote with His own finger. He wrote it, then Jesus is the only one that can cross it out. Please state where He says that there are now only 9 commandments and He crossed out the 4th--end of discussion then. Where does it say you can willfully break any commandment, remain unrepentant, and still enter into His kingdom?
 
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Dave-W

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But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6

BOOM!
You clearly do not understand that.
 
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bloodygrace

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Mosaic law that y'all keep hollering about are all the 612/613 ordinances, handwritten on parchment, rolled up in a holster on the OUTSIDE of the arc. . Not the commandments of God under His MERCY SEAT, in stone. It's the ones on a rock that have the first 4 telling you how to treat God and the last 6 reminding you how to treat people. Surely you have heard of it.

The commandments in stone were called a ministry of death 2Cor. 3:7 and were also a shadow that pointed forward to having God's love written in the heart. Jesus came to establish a kingdom of love so you have to be filled with the love of Christ to be a member. Law keepers are excluded from the kingdom of love.
 
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bloodygrace

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Ok, here's a very simple analogy. Hebrews 10:16-

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Ok, there's a reason He's got hearts AND minds. Stay with me. It's new testament and AFTER THOSE THINGS, right, so it's later on somewhat. Slightly different from the first. What's the difference in mind and heart. He puts the laws into our mind so we KNOW it. Frontal cortex. Rational reasoning. I think, therefore I am.....and all that. On the heart, it's an act of LOVE to be obedient. It's not a legalistic anything. In fact, for genuine LOVE, it's gotta be by choice. Any horse turns left if you beat it to turn that way. For God's remnant- they KNOW. They've got that "sense", that feeling that reconfirmed by the Holy Spirit. They LOVE to do it. Yes, it comes back to Rev 12:17- the remnant - Those who follow the LAMB , wheresoever He goes. The Spirit shows us all things. He leads to Jesus ALWAYS. In ALL truth.
Rev 12:17-
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You folks know what the dragon is. Satan. Then, the remnant of her (her is the church, not the false harlott one, Christ's church- it ain't a particular denomination,its people who follow the Lamb) of her seed (last of the Mohicans, out of what hasn't died off or been decieved and "shaken out") which keep the commandments of God (just 10) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Ok, so what's the testimony of Jesus Christ. You can ask 100 active church people in ANY denomination and MOST will say they know what it is EVERYTIME, just like GOSPEL, but then you say,ok what is it? The draw a blank. So let's see EXACTLY what it is.
Rev 19:10-
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So I hope that everyone sees this. And thats a wrap for this evening. Please put your chairs back under the tables, rinse out your cups and turn off the light on your way out. Peace be with you.

Love is the character of God i.e. compassion, mercy, forgiveness, patience, justice etc. How is that anything like the do's and dont's of law keeping?
 
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Dave-W

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Love is the character of God i.e. compassion, mercy, forgiveness, patience, justice etc. How is that anything like the do's and dont's of law keeping?
You are talking initial salvation here.

What about growing up in HIM to maturity? Being changed from glory to glory?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Obedience is still required. AFTER salvation.
Why do you keep trying to put our obedience BEFORE salvation?
 
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