The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[Saint Steven]

Not too regressive, too evasive, ...what are disciples for?

Disciples aren't "for" anything to my knowledge. Carrots are for soup, or salads.
What are disciples for?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear brethren: my screws are discombobulated, my precious wife has again threatened to put me in a home, and I am tired trying to grasp the scope of esothen, sozomenos & sothesomai.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well then, they'll just have to convince themselves that they're not missing out, or that the Son's Kingdom is not worth attending. And thus, the torment will stop.
How feasible is that?

They?
Where did you get the idea that you aren't in line for the hot tub with the rest of us?
We will ALL be salted with fire.

 

[DNB]

Disciples aren't "for" anything to my knowledge. Carrots are for soup, or salads.
What are disciples for?

Evangels risking their lives for them. What are disciples for?

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear brethren: my screws are discombobulated, my precious wife has again threatened to put me in a home, and I am tired trying to grasp the scope of esothen, sozomenos & sothesomai.

All the kings horses, and all the kings men...

 

[Saint Steven]

Evangels risking their lives for them. What are disciples for?

Is this how you agree that you were wrong about the great commission?
Oh, I get it. This is like when you blame the victims of hell instead of the creator of hell. Got it.

 

[Saint Steven]

...I am tired trying to grasp the scope of esothen, sozomenos & sothesomai.

Are they cousins of Shadrach, Meshach and To-bed-we-go?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, that's true, but the story doesn't end with all being saved, or 'all the nations coming back to him'? Not sure where you got that information from?

Revelation 20:7-15
20:7. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8. and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Aha my new friend, welcome to my favourite piece of Biblical real estate, the pre-denouement of the consummation of all prophecy and history.

Let us review the revelation of grace before the 7 plagues/ strikes, in the song of Moshe and the Lamb (a collaborative work):

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.” (Rev 15:4)

What's this? ALL the nations? Surely those wretched heathens don't deserve it. Indeed, out come the plagues, down goes Babylon the harlot. 'Rejoice, the smoke of her torment goes up forever and ever.' (Rev 19:3). Yea she's history, gone daddy gone!

Then behold! King of kings and Lord of lords with the hosts of heaven in fine linen (shout out to F.L.) emerge to do battle with the forces of darkness. The beast and prophet captured and cast into the lake of theion/ sulphur and pur/ fire (Rev 19:20). And the dragon into the pit for 1,000 years, during which time the beast-free servants reign with Christ.

Happy days! Until Satan is released and quickly cons the nations again (o foolish nations!), gathering them for war from the 4 corners (note the flat earth reference in passing). They converge on Jerusalem but are consumed by heavenly fire (Rev 20:9), and the devil's sent to join his buddies in the lake.

So it's curtains for the nations? Not so fast, my friend, let's move on beyond the GWT judgment in Rev 20:15, where any unbelieving stragglers are scooped up and cast into the lake, along with death (the last enemy) and Hades.

Then into Rev 21, the new heavens and new earth, where God says 'See I am making everything new' (21:5). The renovations have begun. Then we get 21:7-8:

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

And boy it's gonna hurt and be a surprise for many.

So by this stage all the nations have been (a) devoured by fire from heaven and/or (b) thrown into the lake by virtue of their inter alia 'unbelieving' ways. Agreed?

Next heaven descends to earth in the great marriage and the beauty of it is described. But next the theological bombshell:

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; (21:24-26)

What just happened? The nations emerged from the lake in peace and worship, the fulfilment of OT prophecy going all the way back to Gen 18:18:

Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

The light to the nations has been switched on and illuminates the scene, the universal and manifold promises of all nations saved are fulfilled:
Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List

So we can understand Paul's great summation:

When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

But hang on, not so fast there. Ppl still need to overcome in that there lake. Let go of the sin attachments, the love of darkness, let God's presence burn away the accrued dross of a lifetime of rebellion. They need encouragement...and they get it, in the form of a divine incentive package:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. (22:14-15)

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (22:2)

Just as prophesied in Daniel, Ezekiel and Isaiah, the river of life issues from the throne of God and flows out into the Dead Sea, bringing life to all things in it, and:

Fishermen will stand by the shore; from En-gedi to En-eglaim they will spread their nets to catch fish of many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea. (Ez 47:10)

We are those fishermen, my friend. Get your rods and reels ready.

Because this is how it ends in Rev 22:21:

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

 

[DNB]

Aha my new friend, welcome to my favourite piece of Biblical real estate, the pre-denouement of the consummation of all prophecy and history.

Let us review the revelation of grace before the 7 plagues/ strikes, in the song of Moshe and the Lamb (a collaborative work):

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.” (Rev 15:4)

What's this? ALL the nations? Surely those wretched heathens don't deserve it. Indeed, out come the plagues, down goes Babylon the harlot. 'Rejoice, the smoke of her torment goes up forever and ever.' (Rev 19:3). Yea she's history, gone daddy gone!

Then behold! King of kings and Lord of lords with the hosts of heaven in fine linen (shout out to F.L.) emerge to do battle with the forces of darkness. The beast and prophet captured and cast into the lake of theion/ sulphur and pur/ fire (Rev 19:20). And the dragon into the pit for 1,000 years, during which time the beast-free servants reign with Christ.

Happy days! Until Satan is released and quickly cons the nations again (o foolish nations!), gathering them for war from the 4 corners (note the flat earth reference in passing). They converge on Jerusalem but are consumed by heavenly fire (Rev 20:9), and the devil's sent to join his buddies in the lake.

So it's curtains for the nations? Not so fast, my friend, let's move on beyond the GWT judgment in Rev 20:15, where any unbelieving stragglers are scooped up and cast into the lake, along with death (the last enemy) and Hades.

Then into Rev 21, the new heavens and new earth, where God says 'See I am making everything new' (21:5). The renovations have begun. Then we get 21:7-8:

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

And boy it's gonna hurt and be a surprise for many.

So by this stage all the nations have been (a) devoured by fire from heaven and/or (b) thrown into the lake by virtue of their inter alia 'unbelieving' ways. Agreed?

Next heaven descends to earth in the great marriage and the beauty of it is described. But next the theological bombshell:

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; (21:24-26)

What just happened? The nations emerged from the lake in peace and worship, the fulfilment of OT prophecy going all the way back to Gen 18:18:

Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

The light to the nations has been switched on and illuminates the scene, the universal and manifold promises of all nations saved are fulfilled:
Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List

So we can understand Paul's great summation:

When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

But hang on, not so fast there. Ppl still need to overcome in that there lake. Let go of the sin attachments, the love of darkness, let God's presence burn away the accrued dross of a lifetime of rebellion. They need encouragement...and they get it, in the form of a divine incentive package:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. (22:14-15)

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (22:2)

Just as prophesied in Daniel, Ezekiel and Isaiah, the river of life issues from the throne of God and flows out into the Dead Sea, bringing life to all things in it, and:

Fishermen will stand by the shore; from En-gedi to En-eglaim they will spread their nets to catch fish of many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea. (Ez 47:10)

We are those fishermen, my friend. Get your rods and reels ready.

Because this is how it ends in Rev 22:21:

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Wow SM, ok, you universalists are being hyper-literalists with the word 'all'. You cannot reconcile the two discordant passages, i.e. unbelievers thrown into lake of fire, and all nations being blessed, by simply assuming that there's some inexplicable absolution for those in the lake of fire, despite it being stated that they will be there 'forever'.
Which is less a stretch to conclude, to say that the word 'all' refers to a subset of all humanity, as in 'all' those who were not cast into the LOF. Or, that it refers to every man ever born, even those rejected forever? Which is more plausible and less contradictory?
The word 'all', doesn't invariably mean all of mankind. The context of the plagues, the defiance before God, the Judgement day, the punishment and the reward, all are defining a principle about God's Word. Earth is a trial period to separate the sheep from the goats. The whole tenor of the New Testament expresses this. And all it takes for a Universalist to turn everything upside down, is the word 'all'?
There are many strange verses in the NT, with peculiar wording and phrases, that the Bible teaches us not to be hyper-literalists. EG. if something offends you cut it off, eat my flesh and drink my blood, if i want him to remain until I come back, you must be born again, etc... Without spiritualizing these verses, one comes up with radical conclusions.
You are doing this with the word 'all'. Giving it such a literal and universal meaning, despite it's defiance to so many passages that claim less than all. You have not properly reconciled the two explicit principles i.e. the dead will be cast into LOF forever, and all will be worship the Lamb.
All means, all those who made the grade.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

All means, all those who made the grade.

Ah my friend, so 'All' really means 'Some' ie 'the Elect'? You subscribe to the Calvinist Dictionary, it seems.

But the HS will have none of that:

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe (1 Tim 4:10). He came to save the world (Jn 3:17). As all died in Adam, all are made alive in Christ. (1 Cor 15:22) All nations saved, is practically a scriptural mantra (see the list I linked?).

So you're prepared to permit God to be the creator of all things, but not to reconcile, redeem, restore or save all things? How generous of you. Sure God is constrained by all sorts of rules smh. He will not be 'some in some' lol.

And you're keen on this idea that most don't make 'Team Jesus', and are consigned to hideous torment in the bbq forever and a day. The poor young rape victim suffering the same grotesque sentence as Kissinger and Bronstein. Ah divine justice and mercy, how perfect, true and wise she is.

Yes, Rev indeed teaches that those who don't get imprinted by the Beast will reign with Christ for the millennium and not be hurt by the second death. But death itself is overcome, by LIFE, the life of Christ. This is the fire that issues from the throne, and creates the lake.

Do you then interpret Rev 22:21 to mean 'Grace to the saved, the rest be damned!' And what of the resurgence of the nations in 21:24-6? Try to follow the narrative, this is what I'm at pains to show.

'The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever' cannot mean continuous action, but a translation of an idiomatic expression, conveying something like 'It's history'. Pray tell, is Edom still smoking?

Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. (Isa 34:10)

Evidently not. I've been to Petra in Jordan and passed through the gorge there.

I daresay you're not reasoning this through. The LOF is there to SAVE. It is God's presence that destroys sin and delivers the sinner RENEWED, as per the great declaration in Rev 21:6, being the Eschaton, the time of restoration of all things of which the prophets all spoke (Acts 3:21).

Why do you think Adam is greater than Jesus? That Adam draws more to their fiery death than Jesus can bring back to life? To think this way is ironically to be perishing in (partial) unbelief.

 

[FineLinen]

Ah my friend, so 'All' really means 'Some' ie 'the Elect'? You subscribe to the Calvinist Dictionary, it seems.

But the HS will have none of that:

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe (1 Tim 4:10). He came to save the world (Jn 3:17). As all died in Adam, all are made alive in Christ. (1 Cor 15:22) All nations saved, is practically a scriptural mantra (see the list I linked?).

So you're prepared to permit God to be the creator of all things, but not to reconcile, redeem, restore or save all things? How generous of you. Sure God is constrained by all sorts of rules smh.

And you're keen on this idea that most don't make 'Team Jesus', and are consigned to hideous torment in the bbq forever and a day. The poor young rape victim suffering the same grotesque sentence as Kissinger and Bronstein. Ah divine justice and mercy, how perfect, true and wise she is.

Yes, Rev indeed teaches that those who don't get imprinted by the Beast will reign with Christ for the millennium and not be hurt by the second death. But death itself is overcome, by LIFE, the life of Christ. This is the fire that issues from the throne, and creates the lake.

Do you then interpret Rev 22:21 to mean 'Grace to the saved, the rest be damned!' And what of the resurgence of the nations in 21:24-6? Try to follow the narrative, this is what I'm at pains to show.

'The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever' cannot mean continuous action, but a translation of an idiomatic expression, conveying something like 'It's history'. Pray tell, is Edom still smoking?

Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. (Isa 34:10)

Evidently not. I've been to Petra in Jordan and passed through the gorge there.

I daresay you're not reasoning this through. The LOF is there to SAVE. It is God's presence that destroys sin and delivers the sinner RENEWED, as per the great declaration in Rev 21:6, being the Eschaton, the time of restoration of all things of which the prophets all spoke (Acts 3:21).

Why do you think Adam is greater than Jesus? That Adam draws more to their fiery destiny than Jesus can drag to him? To think this way is ironically to be perishing in (partial) unbelief.

Dear Brother: There is a requirement for being part of the overcomer group who follow the Lamb in the withersoever of His mighty strides. We must learn how to sing, a new song in tune to the Tuning Fork of Heaven.

I survived another few hours awakening to a glorious message.

Yes, outrageless grace of the outrageless ABBA our dearest Daddy!

We love Him, love Him, love Him!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We must learn how to sing, a new song in tune to the Tuning Fork of Heaven.

Songs in the key of he who holds the key of life.

Outrageous, scandalous, reckless love!

 

[FineLinen]

Wow SM, ok, you universalists are being hyper-literalists with the word 'all'. You cannot reconcile the two discordant passages, i.e. unbelievers thrown into lake of fire, and all nations being blessed, by simply assuming that there's some inexplicable absolution for those in the lake of fire, despite it being stated that they will be there 'forever'.
Which is less a stretch to conclude, to say that the word 'all' refers to a subset of all humanity, as in 'all' those who were not cast into the LOF. Or, that it refers to every man ever born, even those rejected forever? Which is more plausible and less contradictory?
The word 'all', doesn't invariably mean all of mankind. The context of the plagues, the defiance before God, the Judgement day, the punishment and the reward, all are defining a principle about God's Word. Earth is a trial period to separate the sheep from the goats. The whole tenor of the New Testament expresses this. And all it takes for a Universalist to turn everything upside down, is the word 'all'?
There are many strange verses in the NT, with peculiar wording and phrases, that the Bible teaches us not to be hyper-literalists. EG. if something offends you cut it off, eat my flesh and drink my blood, if i want him to remain until I come back, you must be born again, etc... Without spiritualizing these verses, one comes up with radical conclusions.
You are doing this with the word 'all'. Giving it such a literal and universal meaning, despite it's defiance to so many passages that claim less than all. You have not properly reconciled the two explicit principles i.e. the dead will be cast into LOF forever, and all will be worship the Lamb.
All means, all those who made the grade.

Dear DNB: All/ pas radically means all, there are a few synecdoche's, very few. The radical, radical all is ta pavnte.

#1 -Rom. 11:36

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."

Ta pavnte= the all things.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming. From Him ta pavnte comes, through Him ta pavnte exists, and in Him ta pavnte ends.

#2. -Eph. 1:-

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

#3 -Col. 1:20

"God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood...to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in heaven. And you..."

The all things (the ta pavnte) in the heavens, the all things (the ta pavnte) in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. God has purposed to reconcile the universe (the ta pavnte) to Himself. The ta pavnte/ the all, encompasses the ta pavnte on the earth and the ta pavnte in the heavens. The ta pavnte= the all, the whole enchilada.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

 

[FineLinen]

Songs in the key of he who holds the key of life.

Outrageous, scandalous, reckless love!

 

[SkyWriting]

[Understanding the Foundations of Eternal Conscious Torment
Parts One Two Three Four

Hell is written as a present state and not a future destination.
Those living who do not believe are in Hell now.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Hell is written as a present state and not a future destination.
Those living who do not believe are in Hell now.

Yes, that would be Hades, land of shades. Without God, there are no certainties, only shifting sands, doubt, hopelessness etc. Hence the Great Commission. We get to spread good news that Jesus saves you from that terminal condition.

 

[Saint Steven]

Just as prophesied in Daniel, Ezekiel and Isaiah, the river of life issues from the throne of God and flows out into the Dead Sea, bringing life to all things in it, and:

Fishermen will stand by the shore; from En-gedi to En-eglaim they will spread their nets to catch fish of many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea. (Ez 47:10)

We are those fishermen, my friend. Get your rods and reels ready.

Because this is how it ends in Rev 22:21:

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Wow. Brilliant work, my friend. Kudos.
This last bit reminded me of the scripture below.

Jesus, knowing how this whole thing would play out, knew in advance that he would need some good fishers. So down to the sea he went to start picking them.

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

 

[Saint Steven]

And all it takes for a Universalist to turn everything upside down, is the word 'all'?

I prefer to think that we are turning the world right side up.
Do you remember when you stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?
Did that turn your world upside down, or right side up?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Wow. Brilliant work, my friend. Kudos.

Welcome back. All praise to the author and finisher of our faith. As you can see, this Rev project is slowly coming along, I'll piece it all together into a cogent summary soon I hope.

Jesus, knowing how this whole thing would play out, knew in advance that he would need some good fishers. So down to the sea he went to start picking them.

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

That's it, Biblehub I see actually gives Ez 47:10 as a cross-ref.
Matthew 4:19 "Come, follow Me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

It just all makes sense with restorationism.

 

[Saint Steven]

Without spiritualizing these verses, one comes up with radical conclusions.
You are doing this with the word 'all'. Giving it such a literal and universal meaning

The word "all" is defined in the verses I gave you earlier, which you prefer to ignore.
This time I will bold what the word "all" is defined as. Fair enough?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.