The Eternality of Hell

[SarahsKnight]

The eternality of hell, then, may have more to do with the nature of the punished than it does with the character of their sin. It was because of our sin Jesus died, yes, but this was because we imperfect creatures could not ever pay the penalty of our sin ourselves.

Just wanted to observe that, even though i take the position of conditional immortality (I do not really care for the term annihilationism as i do not think it really covers the main point of the stance in the first place), I do think you have made a good point here.

 

[Alithis]

Matthew 25:41 Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
Will the devil and his angels be annihilated in hell?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

No. Satan and demons will not be annihilated, but instead will be tormented forever.
Why? They are spirit beings.

Spirits cannot be totally eliminated. They can die, but they cannot be annihilated.


It is true that only God hath immortality. This is defined as never-dying.
Yet, devils are demonstrated as existing while spiritually dead.

Therefore, spiritual life is a quality of existence.
And it is a vast difference. A polar opposite.

It’s like positive and negative magnetic poles. Positive magnetism is where the outflow comes.
And out of God’s abundance of life, comes all of creation… and all of heaven.

What is negative magnetism? It’s like a black hole. It sucks positivity into itself, and is never satisfied. It gives nothing forth.

Another example is light and darkness. What is light? It’s a positive force.
What is darkness? It’s the absence of light.

I have seen a demon. What I saw was the spiritual quality that made him demonic. He was the outline of a “being”… but what filled that outline was nothing but spiritual negativity. It was a palpable personification of fear, death, hatred, malevolence… the polar opposite of everything that is good in God.

Therefore, spiritual death is not just like physical darkness, where darkness isn’t really anything.
Spiritual darkness is something.

To some, the idea of spiritual death is nothingness.
When it is far from that!

Satan and his demons are spiritually dead. But they are not annihilated. Instead, they exist forever in a state of ultimate evil.



You see, God is the Father of all spirits.
Hebrews 12:9 …shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

All spirit originated in God, who defines what it is to be spirit. God forever remains what He is. He cannot change or cease to exist. All angels’ spirits are offspring of God’s Spirit being. (That’s why they are called the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4, Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7.)

We as humans were created a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5.)
Yet, we were given spirits (Ecclesiastes 12:7.)
And as such, all humans (as all angels) are considered to be the offspring of God (Acts 17:28.)

All spirits of men will return to God when we die (Ecc 12:7) because we, as the angels, will be required to give an account at the Judgment.



Yes, God can destroy both soul and body in hell. But he will never annihilate the spirit of man, just as he will never annihilate the spirits of devils. They will continue in spiritual death as they exist now. The spiritual darkness. The spiritual negativity. The spiritual blackness that continually sucks life into itself, and destroys it in the process.

Dr. Fudge conveniently ignored some very important Scriptures.
Jesus said the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, being in torment. His torment did not result in his annihilation. He was not fading away from existence. And Jesus never hinted that if he would just hang on a bit longer, he wouldn’t hurt anymore.

Another parable Jesus gave that speaks directly to the nature of hell is of the unforgiving servant.
He had been forgiven. Yet, because he refused to forgive one who owed him, he himself was put in chains, and given to the tormenters, until the last bit that he had formerly owed, was paid back!
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

What is our original debt to God? It’s our sinfulness, which pays us death. Spiritual death. And that is NOT annihilation, but torment for eternity.

Jesus concluding comment which was NOT part of the parable, is succinct and to the point:
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Torment. Until all is paid of the original debt. That’s not annihilation, but exactly what the devil and his angels face, in Revelation 20:10.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This.

And thanks for saving me the one finger typing

 

[Alithis]

That's a parable-----



1Jn_4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect
in love.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God wants obedience out of love, not out of fear. The fearful end up in hell, the 2nd death.

You utterly miss what it is to have reverence for the most high and holy God.
Even in love you will fall on your face.
If you have perfect love
You will not sin and if your not living in sin you need not fear Gods judgment.
But if you are continuing to practice sin
You have not perect love and have very much reason to Fear greatly.

 

[Foxfyre]

The BIBLE is very clear, though there are more myths and fairy tales today than not.

The BIBLE is very clear, though there are many myths and fairy tales that are popular.

Many have testified that that is why they sought God.(in the past 75 years and for the past many centuries - find their testimonies in Foxes Book of Martyrs,
for one source.

Yes, Good, this is basically what is written clearly in the BIBLE...

This is an abomination doctrine/ false and contrary totally to all of YHWH'S WORD/ totally contrary to all of SCRIPTURE.

I'm sorry but I don't deal in abominations. I was just using a light hearted way to explain that none of us are privy to know what hell will be. If you believe differently I will respect your belief but I won't share it.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is given to us to know the ways of God, that is why the Bible exists. We can know who is going to Heaven or Hell if they answer a few of the right questions and we compared the answers to 1John 5:12,13. "Living live over" is the false teaching of Hinduism, not the true teaching of Christianity.

Again there is only symbolism and metaphor to advise us that hell is not where we want to be. I was using a light hearted metaphor of my own to illustrate that in my belief, none of us are privy to know specifically what hell is or who will be there. That prerogative is given to God alone. (And the Groundhog Day metaphor is in no way the same thing as reincarnation.)

Our job is to live our lives in God's plan for us and by our loving word and example attract people to know Him. If the Bible taught us nothing else, it illustrates that different people come to know God in different ways, and there are no hard, fast rules for how that might happen.

 

[Anna Scott]

. . . . .Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

Please cite even one verse in Holy Scripture that says, "Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment." This actually is an example of "human reasoning."

Did Christ conquer death so that the few would find eternal peace in heaven, while the rest of mankind writhes in eternal torment? How would that be good news? That's actually the worst news I've ever heard.

I would rather be annihilated, than spend eternity in heaven knowing that even one person was suffering eternal torment. There is no compassion in eternal torment. There is nothing and no one higher than God. God makes the rules. Why would a loving God inflict eternal torment? Where is love and mercy in such an act?

No human beings, regardless of how many people they have killed, tortured, enslaved, degraded, or violated, have been able to pull off the infliction of eternal torment. Why would God do something so horrible, that it surpasses the worst evil humans have been able to accomplish?

Some posts have touched on the idea that without the threat of eternal torment, we would sin. There would be nothing stopping us. Not everyone views it this way.

I was very close with a an elderly Jewish couple (who have both since passed away.) One day, I asked the husband, "What do you think happens to us when we die?" He paused for quite awhile. He seemed rather puzzled by the question. He finally said, "I'll have to get back to you on that." I could see that he really had not given this much thought at all. Why? Because the Jews serve God, because He is God. Their service is not done for the fear of torment or the promise of reward.

Are we, as Christians, so narcissistic that we are only motivated by fear or the promise of reward?

Let us serve God, because He is God, and let us never lose hope in God's mercy.

Micah 7:18-19 (RSV)

God’s Compassion and Steadfast Love

18 Who is a God like thee, pardoning iniquity

and passing over transgression

for the remnant of his inheritance?

He does not retain his anger for ever

because he delights in steadfast love.

19 He will again have compassion upon us,

he will tread our iniquities under foot.

Thou wilt cast all oura]">[a] sins

into the depths of the sea.

20 Thou wilt show faithfulness to Jacob

and steadfast love to Abraham,

as thou hast sworn to our fathers

from the days of old.


Footnotes:

1. Micah 7:19 Gk Syr Vg Tg: Heb their

 

[mmksparbud]

You utterly miss what it is to have reverence for the most high and holy God.
Even in love you will fall on your face.
If you have perfect love
You will not sin and if your not living in sin you need not fear Gods judgment.
But if you are continuing to practice sin
You have not perect love and have very much reason to Fear greatly.

You've changed your tune. I was speaking of reverence, you were speaking of shaking in your boots for fear of going to hell.

I brought a dog home, got him from his owner who was standing in line to have him pout down, the dog did not like his rabbit. I could not even begin to extend my hand towards him without him turning away, cowering, trembling like a leaf and so terrified he'd pee. The first time I saw that, I cried, "What did they do to you?" I didn't want that---it took a long time, but I finally was able to put out both hands and hold his little face in them and he'd just stand there with nothing but love in his eyes.
Like I quoted, the lost are the fearful, not the saved. God only wants obedience out of love, not out of watching the lost writhe in agony for eternity. His scars will be the determent from sin, not fear out of what He will do to you. If it was fear He wanted, He'd have destroyed Satan and his angels when they rebelled and the whole universe would have served Him out of fear, questioning if maybe Satan had been right after all. He showed what love is, He gave His son and His Son chose to die for our sins, there is no question any more about who was right, and never will be. He showed the universe love, not fear.

 

[Butch5]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

Actually the Lake of Fire isn't eternal. The only logical conclusion is that the Lake of Fire is Gehenna which will one day again be made holy to the Lord. The idea of eternal conscious torment is based on a false premise, that being that it is possible for people to be alive when they are dead. The concept itself is a logical contradiction. If someone is dead, by definition they are not alive. It's the Greek mythological ideas of man being some sort of spirit being that can live apart from the body that gave rise to this idea of eternal conscious torment, at least as it concerns Christianity.

 

[Colter]

I believe there was a revelation in a vision to John on Patmos, but that work was redacted by apocalyptic writers in that age subsequent to his writing. The Book of revelation as we know it today is a very human, contorted document that doesn't reveal much of anything other than the dark speculations of the redactors.

 

[Arthur B Via]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

. ALL things have continuity and live forever so God created hell out of compassion. It would be much more painful to be in God's Holy presence without the Holy Spirit inside you than hell. God made this clear, simple, and adoring offer of pardon through Faith in Jesus to all and is now waiting for that last soul to hear the Gospel. Matthew 24:14 We can trust that God is in complete control.

 

[JacksBratt]

Eternal death doesn't mean eternal life in torment. The lake of fire will burn up the wicked, not roast them alive forever.

I have thought about this from time to time. I have come up with a question,,, can you destroy our consciousness? Can your mental awareness be ended? How would that work?
Think about it. Have you ever been knocked unconscious? You are not aware that you were unconscious until you regain consciousness. What would that look like for eternity? How do you wrap your head around never being conscious again? It boggles my mind.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have thought about this from time to time. I have come up with a question,,, can you destroy our consciousness? Can your mental awareness be ended? How would that work?
Think about it. Have you ever been knocked unconscious? You are not aware that you were unconscious until you regain consciousness. What would that look like for eternity? How do you wrap your head around never being conscious again? It boggles my mind.

The essence of man, his spirit, returns to God at death, to be returned in the resurrection where he or she either receives eternal life or is 'blotted out' forever.

 

[JacksBratt]

The essence of man, his spirit, returns to God at death, to be returned in the resurrection where he or she either receives eternal life or is 'blotted out' forever.

Ya, I understand that. Just cannot wrap my head around a consciousness ending.

 

[aiki]

Did Christ conquer death so that the few would find eternal peace in heaven, while the rest of mankind writhes in eternal torment? How would that be good news? That's actually the worst news I've ever heard.

In light of the fact that every single one of us ought to go to hell, that some of us will not is very good news!

Since the punishment of God is perfect and just, why would it be "the worst news you've ever heard" to see it exercised? Is perfect justice not an excellent thing? I think so.

Christ's atonement opens the way into God's kingdom for all who would take it. It is a testament to the rebelliousness and depravity of Man - not the weakness of Christ's victory over death - that, being offered an escape from the penalty of sin, people spurn the offer in favor of Self-serving wickedness.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

I would rather be annihilated, than spend eternity in heaven knowing that even one person was suffering eternal torment. There is no compassion in eternal torment. There is nothing and no one higher than God. God makes the rules. Why would a loving God inflict eternal torment? Where is love and mercy in such an act?

It is very emotional and sympathetic of you to prefer annihilation rather than to know the wicked suffer the just punishment of their sin in hell, but such a preference reveals how low a view of God's holiness and how weak an understanding of the depravity of your own sin you possess.

Why should hell express God's compassion? God expressed His enormous compassion, love and mercy to us in the Atonement. But having rejected God's gracious gift of salvation in Christ, the unrepentant sinner faces only the terrible, just wrath of God.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Are we, as Christians, so narcissistic that we are only motivated by fear or the promise of reward?

As C.S. Lewis pointed out, God makes us "unblushing promises" by which He motivates us to a relationship with Him. He offers us an abundant life with Him; He offers us heavenly reward for our obedience and service to Him; He offers us blessings and safety, joy and peace. Why? Because He thinks we are narcissists? No. I think He motivates us with the promise of good things because that is how He made us to be motivated. This was true even of Christ as he faced the horrendous prospect of the cross. It was "for the joy that was set before him" that he endured the cross. (He. 12:2) He was motivated into the terrible sacrifice of Calvary by the joy it would produce. Was Christ, then, just a self-serving narcissist? Absolutely not. And neither are those who are motivated by the unblushing promises of God to them.

Let us serve God, because He is God, and let us never lose hope in God's mercy.

But if God was a monster? Would you serve Him then just because He was God? If God was petty, and capricious, and evil would you serve Him? Probably not. We serve God because He is a good God who we can trust to be merciful, and gracious, and kind to us.

Selah.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ya, I understand that. Just cannot wrap my head around a consciousness ending.

Just like going to sleep I'm guessing.

 

[JacksBratt]

Just like going to sleep I'm guessing.

Yes but you only know you slept because you wake up. Same with getting knocked out. How does consciousness get destroyed?

Also, I bet there is a lot of people that would rather just not exist anymore than worship Christ. If they had the choice, knowing what they know about life, the bible, the gospel, heaven and hell.... if they had the choice, they may just choose to be done and over.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How does consciousness get destroyed?

I'm sure that God has a way of destroying it.

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm sure that God has a way of destroying it.

Right you are, anything is possible with God... Just don't see as people getting off that easy.. you know, ending every part of their existence. It may seem the best option for them.

Also, when you think of loved ones who are lost. It would be much easier to know that they are not suffering, just don't exist, than suffering for ever with knowledge of their plight.

 

[Alithis]

Please cite even one verse in Holy Scripture that says, "Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment." This actually is an example of "human reasoning."

So is the term “trinity“

He is quoting a phrase coined by man that attempts to encapsulate the meaning behind scripture.

Thst makes it incomplete and imperfect..
But not automaticly wrong.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just like going to sleep I'm guessing.

Totally Peaceful and
also
for those destined for eternal life JOYOUS !
and
the same message for
those destined for a resurrection of shame and judgment
is very foul and putrid...
the same message
received
by folks with different destinations , one pure, one polluted, one holy, one unholy...