The Eternality of Hell

[Colter]

Yes, very much so.Its hard to accept because IF we follow the word there are things we no longer can do that our flesh wants to do.

It all comes down to this:

God: Don't
Human: But, I want to.
God: I tell you dont because I love you, I know the purpose I have for you and that will only destroy you in some way.
Human: but...... i want to
God: Don't
Human: I did
God: *Sigh* Okay, let me help you clean up your mess. Pick up that tiny part of the mess that caused this and I will do the rest
Human: But.... I dont wanna clean... cant you do it all?
God: Yes, but Im not going to.
Human: No fair!!....... *runs to the bedroom and slams door*

Satan is allowed to fool the whole world. Then those children of God who were fooled are tortured for an eternity. If God were really that way then he wouldn't be an example for anyone to follow.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

I will preface my thoughts by saying that none of us know what hell will be though the Bible is pretty consistent in warning us we don't want to be there. And we don't know what heaven will be but we are assure that's where we want to be. I presume one is the absence of God and the other is with God. At least that's how I look at it.

I am pretty sure it is not given to us to know the ways of God and who goes to heaven or hell is His business alone, even as many of us share the assurance of eternal life with God. And I am pretty sure that nobody has ever sought God by being told he/she was going to hell.

I believe those in grace will simply seamlessly step from this life into the next and it will be wonderful.

Those who don't might just have to live their lives over and over with nothing ever getting better or different--eternal Ground Hog Day.

 

[mark kennedy]

Matthew 25:41 Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
Will the devil and his angels be annihilated in hell?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Congratulations, you found the one verse I don't really have an answer for. Every other reference would seem to indicate the flames and smoke are forever, this one specifically says their, 'torment', is forever and puts a strong emphasis on that fact. I'm honestly not totally convinced but here is how I attempt to reconcile this one to annihilation. Looking at the word for torment used:

Torment (βασανίζω basanizō G928),properly signifies "to test by rubbing on the touchstone" (basanos, "a touchstone"), then, "to question by applying torture;" hence "to vex, torment;" in the Passive Voice, "to be harassed, distressed;" it is said of men struggling in a boat against wind and waves, Mat 14:24, RV, "distressed" (AV, "tossed"); Mar 6:48, RV, "distressed" (AV, "toiling"). (Vine’s Dictionary)
​

The etymology of the word indicates a metal being tested by an outside source, it also indicates the apostles 'toiling' in the midst of a storm. I'm not pretending to have a definitive answer here but I think the reference is to what is torturing them, not as much emphasis on their personal suffering as would appear in the English translation.

No. Satan and demons will not be annihilated, but instead will be tormented forever.
Why? They are spirit beings.

Spirits cannot be totally eliminated. They can die, but they cannot be annihilated.

I thought that for a long time myself but God creates the universe and life ex nihilo, literally, 'out of nothing'. It makes sense to be there is nothing God create that he cannot undo, or annihilate. What we don't know about spiritual reality is a lot, just working from a superficial exegesis of the text annihilation sounds plausible.

It is true that only God hath immortality. This is defined as never-dying.
Yet, devils are demonstrated as existing while spiritually dead.

Adam ate the forbidden fruit after being warned that when he does he will surly die. They ate it and didn't fall over dead but did eventually die, being under a curse. The text in the Hebrew for that could be literally translated, 'dying you shall die', the curse isn't immediate, it's imminent and inevitable. When you came to Christ you were dead in your sins but still walking around and talking and thinking. In order to be, 'in Christ', you had to die to sin and rise to walk as a new creature in Christ. Physically not a lot changed right away, spiritually everything did.

Therefore, spiritual life is a quality of existence.
And it is a vast difference. A polar opposite.

It’s like positive and negative magnetic poles. Positive magnetism is where the outflow comes.
And out of God’s abundance of life, comes all of creation… and all of heaven.

What is negative magnetism? It’s like a black hole. It sucks positivity into itself, and is never satisfied. It gives nothing forth.

Another example is light and darkness. What is light? It’s a positive force.
What is darkness? It’s the absence of light.

I have seen a demon. What I saw was the spiritual quality that made him demonic. He was the outline of a “being”… but what filled that outline was nothing but spiritual negativity. It was a palpable personification of fear, death, hatred, malevolence… the polar opposite of everything that is good in God.

Therefore, spiritual death is not just like physical darkness, where darkness isn’t really anything.
Spiritual darkness is something.

To some, the idea of spiritual death is nothingness.
When it is far from that!

Satan and his demons are spiritually dead. But they are not annihilated. Instead, they exist forever in a state of ultimate evil.

A couple of interesting analogies and a mildly disturbing personal reflection, I will take it at face value. As far as evil, just like darkness is the absence of light evil is the absence of good. Sin isn't just a list of offenses, it is, but it's the absence of what the New Testament calls righteousness. God has two kinds of character qualities, theologians call them communicable and incommunicable. Obviously we can never be omnipotent but we can be righteous through new birth and be the righteousness of God in Christ.

I appreciate your sensibilities on this and welcome your insights, there is nothing about this issue I can say I'm dogmatic about. I just think it's an interesting and responsibly sensible proposition. We will only no for sure on the last day.

You see, God is the Father of all spirits.
Hebrews 12:9 …shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

All spirit originated in God, who defines what it is to be spirit. God forever remains what He is. He cannot change or cease to exist. All angels’ spirits are offspring of God’s Spirit being. (That’s why they are called the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4, Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7.)

The expression 'son of God' is applied to Adam in his genealogy in Luke. There is a reason for that, he had no earthly father he was created. Kings and the High Priest were refereed to as, 'son of God' with respect to authority since only God outranks them.

We as humans were created a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5.)
Yet, we were given spirits (Ecclesiastes 12:7.)
And as such, all humans (as all angels) are considered to be the offspring of God (Acts 17:28.)

All spirits of men will return to God when we die (Ecc 12:7) because we, as the angels, will be required to give an account at the Judgment.



Yes, God can destroy both soul and body in hell. But he will never annihilate the spirit of man, just as he will never annihilate the spirits of devils. They will continue in spiritual death as they exist now. The spiritual darkness. The spiritual negativity. The spiritual blackness that continually sucks life into itself, and destroys it in the process.

Dr. Fudge conveniently ignored some very important Scriptures.
Jesus said the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, being in torment. His torment did not result in his annihilation. He was not fading away from existence. And Jesus never hinted that if he would just hang on a bit longer, he wouldn’t hurt anymore.

That's an interesting point, the rich man was tormented by the flames but he wasn't in the lake of fire, he was in hell. Hell and death are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the age. At the end of the age the children of perdition are resurrected. What I think hell is, is a place for disembodied spirits, called sheol in the OT. The Devil and his angels if they are detained, so to speak, it's in the abyss, a similar holding area. Hell is perhaps in the same vicinity as the lake of fire but no one has actually been tossed in yet, the first two to actually be cast in are the Antichrist and the False Prophet who are thrown in bodily. The rich man could feel the flames but we wasn't engulfed by them.

Another parable Jesus gave that speaks directly to the nature of hell is of the unforgiving servant.
He had been forgiven. Yet, because he refused to forgive one who owed him, he himself was put in chains, and given to the tormenters, until the last bit that he had formerly owed, was paid back!
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

The penalty for debt was prison, the penalty for sin and especially perdition, is death. The second death is a full exacting of the debt and the complete destruction of body and soul. There is no real reason to keep them conscious throughout all eternity, making them suffer yields nothing. Like I said, they don't go into the fires of perdition to suffer, they suffer because they go into the fires of perdition. That's paying the full amount.

What is our original debt to God? It’s our sinfulness, which pays us death. Spiritual death. And that is NOT annihilation, but torment for eternity.

Jesus concluding comment which was NOT part of the parable, is succinct and to the point:
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Torment. Until all is paid of the original debt. That’s not annihilation, but exactly what the devil and his angels face, in Revelation 20:10.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev. 14:11 says the smoke ascendeth forever, that's not the same thing as suffering forever. As far as the torment of Rev. 20:10 I still think there's enough room in the literal meaning to conclude that the object of their torture continues even if they are annihilated.

It's still an open question in my mind, just think there is a pretty solid alternative view here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Greg Merrill]

That's not how I believe. I believe if you are saved from the lake of fire then you're baptized with fire from the lake proving that you were dunked into it. It's the same as the water baptism. God performs it instead of man, and proclaimed it to me, and I'm not the only one, I have heard from other members on this forum that they have experienced the baptism with fire also.

See Luke: {3:16} John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: {3:17} Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will
throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Not everyone believes this but then I suppose they wouldn't until God baptized you with fire. It singed me physically and stung my body when he brought me into there.

People will either be baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit of God (the saved) or in the Lake of Fire (the unsaved.) I get my beliefs from the trustworthiness of the Bible, not from the untrustworthiness of people's experiences, including my own. Yes we can both look at these same verses you have cited, and come up with a different understanding from each other. Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus in Matthew 4:6. Obviously Scripture can be misused and misunderstood.

 

[Greg Merrill]

I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me, it's a little awkward biblically. The lake of fire does burn forever but if God can create body and soul he can destroy it. Suffering forever seems pointless, the children of perdition don't go there to suffer, they suffer because they are thrown in there.

You say "I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me" Verses that come to mind are Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 12:15. (I was told you can see these verses if you highlight and click on them.)

 

[mark kennedy]

People will either be baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit of God (the saved) or in the Lake of Fire (the unsaved.) I get my beliefs from the trustworthiness of the Bible, not from the untrustworthiness of people's experiences, including my own. Yes we can both look at these same verses you have cited, and come up with a different understanding from each other. Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus in Matthew 4:6. Obviously Scripture can be misused and misunderstood.

That's very true, you always go back to the Scriptures. Whatever the case whether annihilation or suffering forever you really should be more focused on how to avoid the fires of perdition then what happens if you are thrown in there.

 

[mark kennedy]

You say "I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me" Verses that come to mind are Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 12:15. (I was told you can see these verses if you highlight and click on them.)

I had never thought of annihilation, till someone was discussing it in a thread one particular day. I did what I always do and started to collect the related verses and doing some word studies and a little light reading on the subject. What I came up with was a plausible but not provable alternative view, no essential doctrine effected. It's something I will explore from time to time like end time scenarios and various other theological and philosophical questions, nothing more.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Satan is allowed to fool the whole world. Then those children of God who were fooled are tortured for an eternity. If God were really that way then he wouldn't be an example for anyone to follow.

As noted in many of the contents of "your theology" it is easy to fool people.

Not as noted in any of the contents of "your theology" (when you post what you yourself say is "my theology" referring to your theology)
the true believers, the ekklesia, the born again ones, children of YHWH,
are not fooled,
though yes, everyone else remains fooled.

They/we overcome as written by the word of our testimony and by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

Others don't.

So there is good examples ever since JESUS walked on earth born of man, even before HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD,
and every day since then,
even though the good examples are few, on the narrow road to life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I will preface my thoughts by saying that none of us know what hell will be though the Bible is pretty consistent in warning us we don't want to be there.

The BIBLE is very clear, though there are more myths and fairy tales today than not.

I am pretty sure it is not given to us to know the ways of God and who goes to heaven or hell is His business alone

The BIBLE is very clear, though there are many myths and fairy tales that are popular.

And I am pretty sure that nobody has ever sought God by being told he/she was going to hell.

Many have testified that that is why they sought God.(in the past 75 years and for the past many centuries - find their testimonies in Foxes Book of Martyrs,
for one source.

I believe those in grace will simply seamlessly step from this life into the next and it will be wonderful.

Yes, Good, this is basically what is written clearly in the BIBLE...

Those who don't might just have to live their lives over and over with nothing ever getting better or different--eternal Ground Hog Day.

This is an abomination doctrine/ false and contrary totally to all of YHWH'S WORD/ totally contrary to all of SCRIPTURE.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Because it is human reasoning. Of course no one will ever admit it aloud, but the whole "sins against an infinite God demand therefore infinite conscious punishment" argument is them saying what they think God should do about unbelievers, not what the Bible says He will actually do. The closest thing to infinite conscious punishment - which of course inevitably equates to torture, like it or not - mentioned in Scripture is the verse about the righteous going on to eternal life, but the unrighteous to eternal punishment, in Matthew 25:46. And people somehow weigh this one verse in as undoubtedly meaning eternal conscious torment even in lieu of battalions of verses elsewhere using terms such as "dead", "destroy", "perish", "consumed", "burned UP" (not just burned infinitely somehow without ever actually being killed by the fire so that the victim is alive to feel the pain of being burned by fire forever, but burned UP).
_________

And then I always hear this argument from those who want so badly for eternal conscious torment to be the Biblical truth: "So, what, you annihilationist guys are saying unbelievers get off scott-free by just blinking out of existence instead? Well, that's no punishment! No pain or suffering, nothing? Everyone would just want to live in sin forever instead of believing in Christ if they thought all that awaited for them at the end was non-existence!" And I have all too many rebuttals to that:

First of all, that isn't what most people who take the conditional immortality stance like me even necessarily believe: that it is a painless, just "blinking out of existence". Your life, your soul being blotted out forever, most likely destroyed in literal fire to burn up all last traces of your soul such that even "the memory of you will perish" (sorry, do not remember the verse that quote is found in), doesn't sound like a fun ride to me where it is totally worth it to reject God and Christ in this life in order to so-called live it up in sin, instead.

Second of all, what if it even was just a painless disappearing from existence? What if the punishment for unbelief wasn't as painful as you personally believe it should be? Who would you be to tell God that His enemies deserve to suffer more than that? How God's method of justice should go? The way I have heard some people so stubbornly advocate eternal conscious torment (not saying you are one of them, mind you, Greg), even to the point of condemning me to that very hell of infinite torments for not believing it is the Biblically correct view of what happens to unbelievers, all I can say is thank God He is the ultimate Judge and not you (again, not you specifically Greg, the hypothetical you).

Thirdly, it is practically ridiculous to believe that the view of Hell as eternal torment or literal everlasting destruction will be the make-or-break factor in the situation of an unbeliever coming to Christ. I doubt that most of the people who reject Christ even believe there is a God, Heaven, or Hell in the first place to have the mindset that it is not worth coming to Christ if they could instead just "live in sin" and have fun with that all their lives and the only consequence for it be a literal death, the extinguishing of one's life. They aren't going to believe in any kind of Hell or consequence for sin in the first place, anyway, or that they even have something called sin in their hearts that needs to be forgiven by a God. A Calvinist would tell you that unbelievers are completely unregenerate and reprobate before the moment they believe in Christ, anyway; why would such a person, if not called to believe in Christ, even have the capacity of mind to weigh in on any possible consequence of their sin and unbelief, anyway? So how then could someone who does not yet believe actually look at conditional immortality (less appropriately called "annihilationism") versus eternal conscious torment in hell, and go, hmmm, well, there's no point in accepting this Jesus Christ and being saved, then, because I can go off and have fun living my own life and not receive any real consequence for it in the end.

Fourth, should eternal torment be the motivator for believing in Christ in the first place? What kind of loving relationship with God is that, when you only do so because of fear of Him throwing you into an eternal torture chamber otherwise? Since when is fear the heart of true love?

Fifth and perhaps most importantly, I can give you a specific example of a friend of mine who once gave me the above quoted argument (about how unbelievers are getting off too easy for their sin if all that awaits them as punishment is annihilation) when she tried to convince me away from the conditional immortality stance in favor of taking the traditional eternal torment belief again. She actually said this: "The God I know wouldn't let sinners off so easily." This was coming from someone who had divulged some details of her sordid past before becoming a believer (and I do not doubt her veracity as a believer either despite my disagreeing with her strongly on this one Biblical subject, mind you) to me, which I had absolutely no qualms about still being friends with her in spite of that. They did not shock me one bit to where I would look down on her in any way for them. And yet here she is, now saved and no longer an enemy of God, advocating for a harsher punishment for those who will not be saved and believe, when she was once one of them. How convenient if you ask me. Would she be willing to extend the sinners she spoke of as getting off the hook so easily the same (very little) amount of grace if she were still considered one of them by God? I sincerely doubt it. But apparently Christ-believers who talk like this have no problem saying how eternal conscious torment is the only fitting punishment for unbelievers after the fact; they seem to have forgotten how they themselves were once one of those unbelieving sinners who deserve the "justice" of an eternal hell. But hey, it's okay to say in so many ways how God needs to get those evil little sinners once you have converted and are safely on the other side, right?


One good thing about my finally rejecting this traditional view of hell is how, in the so doing, I find myself just naturally treating other people who do not yet believe with a little more grace. Just like God did - and still does - with me.


I'm leaving it at that.

You might want to consider
Isaiah 66:24; Matthew 5:29,30 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30,46 Mark 3:29; 9:2-48; Jude 6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10-15; 21:8
I think there is more scripture on eternal suffering of the damned then you may realize.
"dead", "destroy", "perish", "consumed", "burned UP" In the English language are not the same as they are in the languages of the Bible. Physically dead, and spiritually dead are rather different, as is destroyed (annihilated) and destroyed (no longer able to fulfill their intended purpose).
I appreciate you not speaking to me specifically on certain points, and you are right, I do not believe that people that don't believe in eternal suffering or doomed to it because of that belief. I believe some will end up in Heaven that didn't believed they will, and some will end up in hell who didn't believed they would, though that is off the subject of eternal suffering. I like and agree with a lot of what you have said. Differing on this particular eternal suffering doctrine is not something that widely divides us.

 

[Colter]

Jesus would never torture someone for an eternity. He taught life or death.

 

[Greg Merrill]

The common concept of Hell is a fabrication by shamans who have no truth of the Loving God to teach. Because primitive man believed in good ghosts and bad ghosts in the afterlife, they had to have a place for the bad ghosts to go.

In the original gospel of Jesus there is life, eternal sonship with God, or eternal death, the complete, decided rejection of salvation.

The idea that an infinite Loving God created a torture place for his finite children (children that he allowed Satan to fool) is just obviously an outrageous accusation against the Father.

Where is the authority of the Scriptures to back up your "opinions"? God didn't create everlasting fire for man, but for the devil and his angels, Mt 25:41. See also John 3:16.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus would never torture someone for an eternity. He taught life or death.

What "Jesus" are you talking about ?
The one you call "your (own) theology", who won't do what the BIBLE says ?

 

[Greg Merrill]

Jesus would never torture someone for an eternity. He taught life or death.

What is your specific Scripture to back this up? I do agree that Jesus would never torture...
This is a fallacy of thinking, that God or Jesus is torturing someone in hell, or blaming God for the eternal suffering. It is not God's fault or desire. It is man and Satan that are to blame, and deserve this, and because of that, in this life are twisting these concepts around to shift the blame from them who deserve it, to God who doesn't.

 

[Greg Merrill]

I will preface my thoughts by saying that none of us know what hell will be though the Bible is pretty consistent in warning us we don't want to be there. And we don't know what heaven will be but we are assure that's where we want to be. I presume one is the absence of God and the other is with God. At least that's how I look at it.

I am pretty sure it is not given to us to know the ways of God and who goes to heaven or hell is His business alone, even as many of us share the assurance of eternal life with God. And I am pretty sure that nobody has ever sought God by being told he/she was going to hell.

I believe those in grace will simply seamlessly step from this life into the next and it will be wonderful.

Those who don't might just have to live their lives over and over with nothing ever getting better or different--eternal Ground Hog Day.

It is given to us to know the ways of God, that is why the Bible exists. We can know who is going to Heaven or Hell if they answer a few of the right questions and we compared the answers to 1John 5:12,13. "Living live over" is the false teaching of Hinduism, not the true teaching of Christianity.

 

[SarahsKnight]

What "Jesus" are you talking about ?
The one you call "your (own) theology", who won't do what the BIBLE says ?

The Bible says that Jesus will do the torturing? Really? I have somehow missed that all these years after coming to believe and reading the Bible and listening to sermons that include recitation of verses and often denoting said verses' location. One would think by now I would have long heard (and several times) the verse or passage that says or at least strongly hints that my Savior who loved me enough to die for me will also at the same time hate His enemies strongly enough to torture them forever. Interesting .... Guess i was just too naive to see it right there in front of me all these years.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Bible says that Jesus will do the torturing?

That's not the question.

However, do you have your "own theology" that no one else shares also, like the one I asked says he has ?

 

[Colter]

Where is the authority of the Scriptures to back up your "opinions"? God didn't create everlasting fire for man, but for the devil and his angels, Mt 25:41. See also John 3:16.

John said parish as in "die".

 

[Greg Merrill]

The Bible says that Jesus will do the torturing? Really? I have somehow missed that all these years after coming to believe and reading the Bible and listening to sermons that include recitation of verses and often denoting said verses' location. One would think by now I would have long heard (and several times) the verse or passage that says or at least strongly hints that my Savior who loved me enough to die for me will also at the same time hate His enemies strongly enough to torture them forever. Interesting .... Guess i was just too naive to see it right there in front of me all these years.

You are right here, but elsewhere you said that you haven't heard of anybody coming to Christ because of fear of Hell. Someone here posted that they did. I personally knew a man that also did, and I have read of many that did. Check out the story off the famous sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." It was given in a monotone, and people were still said to be trembling, and repenting of sin and coming to Jesus to be saved, after hearing about the torments of hell.

 

[Greg Merrill]

John said parish as in "die".

Sorry, but "perish" in Jn 3:16 is referring to them not fulfilling the original purpose of God for them in having eternal fellowship with Him, but of being separted from Him in a Lake of Fire forever.