Greg Merrill

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Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?
 

Godlovesmetwo

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"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
what a sentence!
One version of Hell would be getting strapped to a chair and having to watch repeat episodes of MASH, eternally.
 
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Winken

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I'm glad it is close to my bedtime so that I don't have to sit here thinking this over..........

It is, without question, difficult to understand, at least in the mind-mental-emotional realm. One can imagine those who fail to acknowledge Jesus being cast away on a desert island forever, deaf, dumb and blind, but burning in ghastly pain? Lord! Open our eyes that we may see visions of Truth you have for us! How shall we rest, if we neglect to witness?

GNite, all.............
 
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Kenny'sID

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Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.

Then anything we say against that will be solely false reasoning and not viable, automatically? I suppose that one way to stop an argument/disagreement before it starts. :)

Let see, to perish is "everlasting punishment".

Then there is the "will not perish" part of john 3:16 indicating we parish.

I could go on but the point is, this is one of the most controversial subjects in then Bible, and in my view, not made clear by design.

And if it is a fact, we go to a hot place, remember the parable of the guy who wouldn't feed the poor man, he went to heaven and the guy went to hell, and had enough wits about him to have a conversation (a drop of water and to warn others). Can you imagine even trying to think while your flesh is burning, or the equivalent? So clearly not that.
 
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Alithis

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Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."

Since death is to be forever cast away
From life this makes perfect sense.
God is life
His word us life.
We broke his word (sin)
We broke life.
We owe him what we broke.
We broke his life.
BUT.....
He is eternal thus we owe him eternal life.
We cant pay it.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Still not positive but I lean in that direction.

It will be a 'mercy killing' for the wicked and us as well as the "memory of them will cease", so we won't spend eternity feeling bad about lost relative and friends.
 
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Kenny'sID

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It will be a 'mercy killing' for the wicked and us as well as the "memory of them will cease", so we won't spend eternity feeling bad about lost relative and friends.

Yep, there is that too. How are the saved going to feel know their dearly departed mother father or whatever is on fire for eternity. Doesn't sound like those eyes will ever be dried as they are supposed to.
 
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DennisTate

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Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?


But please compare all this with the personal testimony of former Atheist Ian McCormack..... and former Atheist Howard Storm?

Time is an invention.... invented by G-d.... to bring people to salvation.

Time can be compared with a car, boat, plane or rocket.......

time.... like the Sabbath was made FOR mankind.... not to destroy us.


 
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OldWiseGuy

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Yep, there is that too. How are the saved going to feel know their dearly departed mother father or whatever is on fire for eternity. Doesn't sound like those eyes will ever be dried as they are supposed to.

God has that covered. Most will be saved eventually, during the White Throne judgment period during Christ's millennial reign. Only those few incorrigible, unrepentant souls will be destroyed. Probation for those called in the church age will be closed at the end of this dispensation. The "rest of the dead" need not worry about it until the second resurrection during the millennium.
 
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DennisTate

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Since death is to be forever cast away
From life this makes perfect sense.
God is life
His word us life.
We broke his word (sin)
We broke life.
We owe him what we broke.
We broke his life.
BUT.....
He is eternal thus we owe him eternal life.
We cant pay it.

But.... the word in both Greek and Hebrew that is translated
"forever" means....."until the end of conditions last" and has different
meaning than the world "forever' in English.
 
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Alithis

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But.... the word in both Greek and Hebrew that is translated
"forever" means....."until the end of conditions last" and has different
meaning than the world "forever' in English.
Whats the difference..
You want to perish? Go right ahead..
I desire to please he who laid down his life for me.
You risk steering people away from the fear of God..
I want no part of it.
 
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Greg Merrill

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what a sentence!
One version of Hell would be getting strapped to a chair and having to watch repeat episodes of MASH, eternally.
I liked some of the episodes, but to be strapped to a chair and have to watch them eternally...
now that would be ... bad. :amen:
 
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Greg Merrill

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Since death is to be forever cast away
From life this makes perfect sense.
God is life
His word us life.
We broke his word (sin)
We broke life.
We owe him what we broke.
We broke his life.
BUT.....
He is eternal thus we owe him eternal life.
We cant pay it.
Wow. Sounds like words of true understanding. Good for you.
 
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mmksparbud

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Whats the difference..
You want to perish? Go right ahead..
I desire to please he who laid down his life for me.
You risk steering people away from the fear of God..
I want no part of it.


Is it the fear of God that will save you from hell? Or is it the love of God that saves?

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.



Meaning of the fear of the Lord
The main Hebrew and Greek words translated fear in the Bible can have several shades of meaning, but in the context of the fear of the Lord, they convey a positive reverence.

The Hebrew verb yare can mean “to fear, to respect, to reverence” and the Hebrew noun yirah “usually refers to the fear of God and is viewed as a positive quality. This fear acknowledges God’s good intentions (Ex. 20:20). … This fear is produced by God’s Word (Ps. 119:38; Prov. 2:5) and makes a person receptive to wisdom and knowledge (Prov. 1:7; 9:10)” (Warren Baker and Eugene Carpenter, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: Old Testament, 2003, pp. 470-471).

The Greek noun phobos can mean “reverential fear” of God, “not a mere ‘fear’ of His power and righteous retribution, but a wholesome dread of displeasing Him” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Fear, Fearful, Fearfulness”). This is the type of positive, productive fear Luke describes in the early New Testament Church:Fear of the Lord: What Does It Mean?

Fear will not be a part of the new earth, all that is needed is for us to see the scars on Jesus and sin will never rise again.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.

Because it is human reasoning. Of course no one will ever admit it aloud, but the whole "sins against an infinite God demand therefore infinite conscious punishment" argument is them saying what they think God should do about unbelievers, not what the Bible says He will actually do. The closest thing to infinite conscious punishment - which of course inevitably equates to torture, like it or not - mentioned in Scripture is the verse about the righteous going on to eternal life, but the unrighteous to eternal punishment, in Matthew 25:46. And people somehow weigh this one verse in as undoubtedly meaning eternal conscious torment even in lieu of battalions of verses elsewhere using terms such as "dead", "destroy", "perish", "consumed", "burned UP" (not just burned infinitely somehow without ever actually being killed by the fire so that the victim is alive to feel the pain of being burned by fire forever, but burned UP).
_________

And then I always hear this argument from those who want so badly for eternal conscious torment to be the Biblical truth: "So, what, you annihilationist guys are saying unbelievers get off scott-free by just blinking out of existence instead? Well, that's no punishment! No pain or suffering, nothing? Everyone would just want to live in sin forever instead of believing in Christ if they thought all that awaited for them at the end was non-existence!" And I have all too many rebuttals to that:

First of all, that isn't what most people who take the conditional immortality stance like me even necessarily believe: that it is a painless, just "blinking out of existence". Your life, your soul being blotted out forever, most likely destroyed in literal fire to burn up all last traces of your soul such that even "the memory of you will perish" (sorry, do not remember the verse that quote is found in), doesn't sound like a fun ride to me where it is totally worth it to reject God and Christ in this life in order to so-called live it up in sin, instead.

Second of all, what if it even was just a painless disappearing from existence? What if the punishment for unbelief wasn't as painful as you personally believe it should be? Who would you be to tell God that His enemies deserve to suffer more than that? How God's method of justice should go? The way I have heard some people so stubbornly advocate eternal conscious torment (not saying you are one of them, mind you, Greg), even to the point of condemning me to that very hell of infinite torments for not believing it is the Biblically correct view of what happens to unbelievers, all I can say is thank God He is the ultimate Judge and not you (again, not you specifically Greg, the hypothetical you).

Thirdly, it is practically ridiculous to believe that the view of Hell as eternal torment or literal everlasting destruction will be the make-or-break factor in the situation of an unbeliever coming to Christ. I doubt that most of the people who reject Christ even believe there is a God, Heaven, or Hell in the first place to have the mindset that it is not worth coming to Christ if they could instead just "live in sin" and have fun with that all their lives and the only consequence for it be a literal death, the extinguishing of one's life. They aren't going to believe in any kind of Hell or consequence for sin in the first place, anyway, or that they even have something called sin in their hearts that needs to be forgiven by a God. A Calvinist would tell you that unbelievers are completely unregenerate and reprobate before the moment they believe in Christ, anyway; why would such a person, if not called to believe in Christ, even have the capacity of mind to weigh in on any possible consequence of their sin and unbelief, anyway? So how then could someone who does not yet believe actually look at conditional immortality (less appropriately called "annihilationism") versus eternal conscious torment in hell, and go, hmmm, well, there's no point in accepting this Jesus Christ and being saved, then, because I can go off and have fun living my own life and not receive any real consequence for it in the end.

Fourth, should eternal torment be the motivator for believing in Christ in the first place? What kind of loving relationship with God is that, when you only do so because of fear of Him throwing you into an eternal torture chamber otherwise? Since when is fear the heart of true love?

Fifth and perhaps most importantly, I can give you a specific example of a friend of mine who once gave me the above quoted argument (about how unbelievers are getting off too easy for their sin if all that awaits them as punishment is annihilation) when she tried to convince me away from the conditional immortality stance in favor of taking the traditional eternal torment belief again. She actually said this: "The God I know wouldn't let sinners off so easily." This was coming from someone who had divulged some details of her sordid past before becoming a believer (and I do not doubt her veracity as a believer either despite my disagreeing with her strongly on this one Biblical subject, mind you) to me, which I had absolutely no qualms about still being friends with her in spite of that. They did not shock me one bit to where I would look down on her in any way for them. And yet here she is, now saved and no longer an enemy of God, advocating for a harsher punishment for those who will not be saved and believe, when she was once one of them. How convenient if you ask me. Would she be willing to extend the sinners she spoke of as getting off the hook so easily the same (very little) amount of grace if she were still considered one of them by God? I sincerely doubt it. But apparently Christ-believers who talk like this have no problem saying how eternal conscious torment is the only fitting punishment for unbelievers after the fact; they seem to have forgotten how they themselves were once one of those unbelieving sinners who deserve the "justice" of an eternal hell. But hey, it's okay to say in so many ways how God needs to get those evil little sinners once you have converted and are safely on the other side, right?


One good thing about my finally rejecting this traditional view of hell is how, in the so doing, I find myself just naturally treating other people who do not yet believe with a little more grace. Just like God did - and still does - with me.


I'm leaving it at that.
 
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Greg Merrill

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God has that covered. Most will be saved eventually, during the White Throne judgment period during Christ's millennial reign. Only those few incorrigible, unrepentant souls will be destroyed. Probation for those called in the church age will be closed at the end of this dispensation. The "rest of the dead" need not worry about it until the second resurrection during the millennium.
:sorry: :swoon: :prayer: :worried:
 
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SarahsKnight

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The Greek noun phobos can mean “reverential fear” of God, “not a mere ‘fear’ of His power and righteous retribution, but a wholesome dread of displeasing Him” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Fear, Fearful, Fearfulness”). This is the type of positive, productive fear Luke describes in the early New Testament Church:

If I may make one more post just long enough to address this by saying "Amen" to that. I actually am afraid to violate my own conscience now by going back and believing the traditional view that God sees fit to torture unbelievers forever, because I believe doing so would unjustly malign God and so displease Him. I am actually afraid to insult His goodness by deliberately returning to a harsher belief about His sense of justice, when I have been shown otherwise in Scripture. It's fine if people have been raised on the traditional view just like I had and genuinely think it is the correct one supported by the Bible, but again, I myself cannot violate my conscience by going back to it just because.
 
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