The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

[Bible Highlighter]

The word translated "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is "apolummi." It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Apolummi is used to describe spilled wine, broken wineskins, tarnished gold, spoiled food, fading beauty, lost sheep, prodigal son etc.
Something or someone who is destroyed cannot be "from the presence of the lord" or anything else.

2 Thesalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ​

Yeah, I do not see how changing the timing on their destruction away from God's presence really changes the verse. That doesn't make any sense. It's a one time action taking place here. The verse does not say that they are already destroyed before it talks about being away from the presence of the Lord. The verse does not read like that. Not sure how you can even read it like that.

God can destroy the wicked away from His presence with no problems. It is what the verse says. God's Word is telling us about the one time act of the wicked's destruction away from God's presence that has everlasting consequences. For example: Bob can remotely set on fire a piece of paper away from his presence and say, "I have executed my wrath of everlasting destruction upon this piece of paper, away from my presence!" The paper met destruction because the fire burned it. The paper faced an everlasting destruction that was away from Bob's presence. If it is not a problem for Bob to destroy a piece of paper away from his presence than surely God can do the same thing with the wicked.


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[Searching again]

Well we know we can't go off on, "what we choose to believe" but rather facts in the word of God. We can break apart what each word really was meant to be interpreted as but in all reality the bible doesn't misquote itself when God says " forever or eternal judgement".
Try not to go off of what you believe but rather what truth says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no Scripture indicating an eternal duration over which a person's time in hell will stretch? Well, what about this one?:

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse is an example of what is known as a parallelism. This is important to note:

"What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked."
(From: "Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" - Ron Rhodes)
​

Well, first, I am not a JW; I am a Sola Scriptura Bible believing Christian who believes in the Trinity, who believes that Jesus is God, and who believes that we are saved by Christ's death and resurrection. So I would appreciate it if you do not insult me by giving me a quoted apologetics source that is for JW's (When I am the farthest thing from being a JW). My belief in "hell" is no way like their belief in "hell." They believe in full head on soul sleep. I do not find that position to be biblical in the slightest. I believe there is a literal placed called "hell" and that the wicked are concious there. Yes, I do believe it is very likely that there are periods of long sleep there, but I also believe the wicked are awake at times within Hades, as well (of which we see in the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man). Also, Catholics believe in the Trinity. Does that mean you are Catholic? So truth is not always determined by guilt by association, my friend.

The key to understanding Matthew 25:46 is 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
For what is the "everlasting punishment" that is being described in Matthew 25:46?
2 Thessalonians says that it is "everlasting destruction" and not "ongoing never ending living torture in flames." If I destroy something, that means it is no longer that same thing that it once was. If I destroy a piece of paper (with fire), it is no more. That paper has faced "everlasting destruction" by being brought to ashes. The Scriptures talk about how the wicked will be like ashes.

Why do you ignore the preposition "in" when you analyze the state of the Rich Man in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man? In Luke 16:19-31 we read:

23 And being IN torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented IN this flame.'

Your awkward soldier analogy notwithstanding, "in" does not mean "nearby" or "over there." "In" means "in."

I'm not sure why this is important. "This" does not modify the preposition "in." That is, it does not change the meaning of "in." If I say, "I am in this lake," I quite obviously do not mean I am "near" the lake, or that the lake is "in front of me." I mean, quite obviously, that I am in the lake, submersed in some measure within or inside of it. And the use of "this" does not change the sense of the preposition "in" but only serves as an adjective (or maybe an adverb?) modifying or referring to the noun "lake." The same is true of the words "this" and "in" of the Rich Man in the parable.

In the KJV, verse 23 is saying the richman is IN torments. This is a verb. Other translations say he is tormented. He is being tormented is what verse 23 is saying. You can point to another translation that says he was tormented in Hades, but it still does not change anything. Hades can refer to the name of the place and not the flames itself.

As for Luke 16:24:
Again, the KJV was written in 1600's English (Which is not exactly like Modern English); On top of that, the KJV has influenced Modern Translations, as well.
But even still, I can say to my wife, "I am happy in this relationship" with me referring to her in being in front of me." I can point to a fire and say, I am uncomfortable in this fire here." and be grammatically correct in saying that. For the words "in this" is in reference to my pointing to what I am talking about.

Free Dictionary defines the word "in" as:

"Within the limits, bounds, or area of:
Example of usage: "was hit in the face;"

Thefreedictionary.com/in
​

Now, surely a person's fist did not go inside a person's face here.
So something does not have to be inside something when we talk about the word "in."

Isaiah 57:6 talks about taking comfort "in these" in reference to a particular things. Surely the things that Isaiah is talking about is not in reference to being inside him or something that he is inside of like a house. He is referring to exterior things involving certain objects. He is pointing verbally in reference to something.

You sure appear to be discounting the fact that the Rich Man was tormented in flames...

So you believe it is possible for a man to carry on a normal conversation with others while being tied to a log and lowered into a giant roaring campfire? Surely that is not rational.

How does it necessarily follow that if God is fair and just no one will be tormented in hell for thousands of years?

Bob's family entered a country of a dictator. His family got caught lying by this dictator. The dictator then decides to torture Bob's family alive in the most painful way possible for their lying for the rest of their lives.
Yeah, it is sort of like that.
The punishement needs to fit the crime.
It is not complicated.
Just because God is holy and just and eternal does not change the severity of the crimes done against Him. Committing a sin against a popular leader of a country never involves unending horrible torture as being something that is justifiable.

God is into fair justice.

For Luke 12:47-48 says,
47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Why do you assume the Rich Man's spiritual form worked exactly as his physical body did? If his spirit survived the death of his physical body, why could it not survive and endure the flames of hell? And why do you assume the flames of eternal hell are exactly like the flames in your fireplace? For one thing, the flames of hell will never go out. Light a fire in your fireplace, though, and eventually the flames will dwindle down and die. It seems to me, then, that trying to understand eternal, spiritual realities via temporal, physical ones is going to quickly lead you astray. Why wasn't the Rich Man in such unbearable agony in the flames of hell that he couldn't even think of conversing with Abraham? As you say, this would be the case if he were alive in his physical body and burning. But this is to make an eternal, spiritual reality directly parallel to our temporal, physical one. They aren't the same, however - as the conduct of the Rich Man in the parable reveals.

Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples. If we could not trust Jesus's parables or real world examples so as to talk about spiritual truth, then there is no consistent way in which God operates that is logical and orderly when we look at the rest of Scripture. We could not trust His parables totally because they may not be a parallel of the real world with the spiritual things (Because the spirit world does not contrast the physical world like you say). The thing is that I would need a specific verse telling me that this is the case (in what you say is true). I would need a verse saying or implying to me that the spirit world does not mirror the physical world in some way. Why? Because the Canaanite woman said to Jesus that even the dogs can eat the crumbs from the master's table. She used a real world example to speak of a spiritual truth.

In addition, we see the city of New Jerusalem come down from out of Heaven and land on the New Earth. This is a spiritual city that is coming down upon an Earthly place. This suggests that the difference between the spirit world and the physical world is not all that much different (as you suggest).

Why didn't the Rich Man beg Abraham for buckets of water? Perhaps he recognized that his torment in hell was well-deserved and so could bring himself to ask only for the smallest relief from it. This seems very likely to me...

This seems highly unlikely because if he was truly in pain by these flames, he would not be able to communicate normally with Abraham. It also seems highly unlikely that he would ask for a little amount of water to cool his tongue when his whole body was suffering so much. He is there because he is selfish. His greed for water would compell him to ask for lots of water. He was after all a Rich-man. It also would be silly non-sense to try and sell someone on giving you a little bit of water when they know that that you know that you needs lots of water instead. Surely the Rich-man should obviously know that he could not fool Abraham in such a way. He was asking for a little water because he was in a very hot place (With the flames nearby him).

But words like "destroy," "death," "die" and "destruction" are not always - or even often - meant in Scripture to be synonymous with "annihilation." If "death," for instance, meant "annihilation" how could there then be a second death a person suffers in hell?

The second death is the Lake of Fire according to Revelation 21:8. This happens after a person is in hell.

We see also in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus that the flames of the Rich Man's torment did not consume him. His "destruction" in hell did not entail his annihilation.

Selah.

Well, first, "hell" is not the same place as the "Lake of Fire." They are two different places. Second, logic of the parallel between the real world and the spirit world has to go ignored in order to place an ECT viewpoint upon the story of the Rich-man. The only strength in the ECT argument here is with the word "in" within Luke 16:24. But as the Dictionary, the Bible, and real life communication shows us, this can easily be a scenario of the Rich-man pointing to the flame and referring to how he is tormented by it's great heat. All the other facts or bread crumbs in this story also support this view instead of the ECT viewpoint.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Well we know we can't go off on, "what we choose to believe" but rather facts in the word of God. We can break apart what each word really was meant to be interpreted as but in all reality the bible doesn't misquote itself when God says " forever or eternal judgement".
Try not to go off of what you believe but rather what truth says.

Try reading Post #2 within this thread. The word "forever" and it's related words does not always mean forever. That is what many here are ignoring.


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[friend of]

Hey thanks for this thread. Especially post #2. I'll never look at the word "forever" in the Bible the same way again. Thanks for backing up your claim with scripture so that we can see your disagreement from a biblical pov.

Psalms 30:5

^btw!

 

[SkyWriting]

When the Rich-man died he wanted to warn his brothers. Yet, Abraham said that they had Moses and the prophets. If they were already dead and gone, what Abraham said would not be true. I mean, I get where you are coming from. I wanted to defend "hell" as not being a place of torment for the wicked for thousands of years. At one point I tried to use the "time card" to rationalize that hell operates differently in time than our time, but I found it did not work.

The "partial soul sleep card" is the only other rational explanation I found.
This is why I believe that there will be long periods of sleep in "hell" along with moments of time whereby the wicked are also awake or conscious (Like we see in the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man). For the Scriptures appear to teach both soul sleep and that souls will be conscious or awake after death. One set of verses side with soul sleep, and the other set of verses side with souls being concious and awake after death. This leads me to the conclusion that both set of verses are true.

I mean, it makes logical sense.
There are periods of time that we sleep here on this Earth and there are times that we are awake or concious. I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. parables).

People may get nitpicky and say that we only sleep a fraction of the day, though. Well, there always comas that people can lapse into (After a serious blow to the head). Bears can also go into a state of hibernation (or long sleep), as well; And yes. Humans have been referred to as animals before. The Cannaanite woman said that even the dogs (Gentiles) can eat the crumbs from the Master's table.


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Because the wages of sin is death, we would die the moment life begins.
A a gift, God delays our wages of death we have earned.
The downside is that all judgment is delayed and sinners
live to an old age at times. So our world seems an unjust place.

Any reference not-in-the-physical is "eternal", "everlasting"
or whatever such word you choose.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hey thanks for this thread. Especially post #2. I'll never look at the word "forever" in the Bible the same way again. Thanks for backing up your claim with scripture so that we can see your disagreement from a biblical pov.

Psalms 30:5

^btw!

You are most welcome.
My pleasure.
Oh, and thank you for Psalms 30:5.
God's Word is so amazing.
May God bless you, my friend.
And please have a great day in the Lord.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Because the wages of sin is death, we would die the moment life begins.
A a gift, God delays our wages of death we have earned.
The downside is that all judgment is delayed and sinners
live to an old age at times. So our world seems an unjust place.

Any reference not-in-the-physical is "eternal", "everlasting"
or whatever such word you choose.

I see time operating the same way in the afterlife or spirit world as it does in the real world.
For when Satan was thrown into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years he was then set loose upon the world of the Millennium (towards it's end). When the fifth seal is broken, the saints cry unto God under the altar in Heaven. They are crying out for justice against the antichrist of their being martyred by him; which is a part of the breaking of the 4th seal. Also, the city of New Jerusalem comes down from out of Heaven and lands on the New Earth and becomes an important place for God and His people. So the two times of both dimensions or world have to coincide with each other. This means that there is a point in time within Heaven where the city of New Jerusalem will not be there. When we die, our spirits do not go to some timeless place or to a dimension of time where all things in our physcial world are happening all at once from the spirit world's perspective. God said that on the six day He rested (stopped) from all of His work involving the creation. If this was not the case, and God is existing in all points in time right now, then God did not really rest (or stop) from His work of creation (Because He would still be creating everything in six literal 24 hours days in some past dimension or some timeless dimension). But God is not a slave to time whereby He is forced to keep repeating Himself in the things that He has done. Nor is God existing in some future dimension of time waiting to repeat the events we will then experience. Again, God is not a slave to time. The Scripture say, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10).

This means Jesus offered His sacrifice ONCE for all time. Jesus is not continuing to keep sacrificing Himself over and over and over from Heaven's perspective. Also, time is not slowed down in the afterlife, either. As I said, Abraham said to the rich-man that his brothers have Moses and the prophets to hear. If time moved more quickly on our Earth, with the spirit realm racing more quickly towards the Judgment, then Abraham could not make this statement. They would have been dead a long time ago with the rich-man's arrival.


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[Halbhh]

Just had a thought that involves semantics. You seem to be saying human souls are not immortal, therefore they will not continue to "live" in the lake of fire forever. "Immortal" means they can not die, and that they continue to live. By your thinking, they can not live in the lake of fire because they are not immortal. Yet in God's reckoning unbelievers were not alive to begin with. Sure they breathed, walked around, and even reproduced physically; but spiritually they were dead, spiritually "separated" from God. That is what they will continue to be forever in the Lake of fire, spiritually dead, separated from God, and as conscious of torment as they were when they were spiritually dead walking upon the earth. Rev 20:12 says "And I saw the DEAD...STAND before God..." They are dead spiritually, but standing, conscious before God, to hear their judgment pronounced. In verse 10 we read of Satan being caste into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are (which had entered it a thousand years before and are still there when Satan joins them, having not been annihilated, as people want to believe will relieve sinners of eternal misery."

Perhaps. One thing worth considering is whether you should presume the 'beast' and the 'false prophet' are to be known to be human souls. At the minimum, the way the beast rises from the pit (Rev 11) suggests it is is *not* a human, but an immortal. Of course, it could easily possess a human, but the human would still have their own separate self/soul, even though possessed temporarily.

 

[Halbhh]

When the Rich-man died he wanted to warn his brothers. Yet, Abraham said that they had Moses and the prophets. ...

...

But this reads as a parable, though admittedly a parable especially for Jewish listeners and I could not be certain it was strictly teaching through metaphor alone, but at least I can be sure it is teaching through analogy if not metaphor. In other words, we are of course to learn about ignoring the poor and the outcome of ignoring the poor, and that's the entire point and reason He said it. So, I think it's a parable like the other parables, so I think the version of being in the fire it uses is symbolic or metaphorical (representing one thing as like something else) instead of concretely accurate. Though human souls in the lake of fire (and isn't that after the day of judgement?) might be guessed to have a duration of time, however short, until consumed.

update -- About the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man -- Just remembered the wording in Rev 20, that "death and Hades" are later "thrown into the lake of fire". In the parable, the rich man is speaking from Hades.

 

[com7fy8]

I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."

This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

So, it is possible to be "dead" while conscious in her pleasures. She is love-dead . . . by living selfishly. God is love, alive in love, immortal in love's eternal life. But sinners can consciously suffer "torment" (already > 1 John 4:18) and be conscious, but they are dead as far as love's life is concerned.

So, I offer how God's immortality refers to how He is alive in eternal love life.

But there are beings which are dead, but conscious . . . not alive in God's love.

And the spirit of evil > Ephesians 2:2 > will be kept somewhere, and fire will keep it there and control it; only fire can control evil and Satanic, selfish and stubborn, beings. And people who continue in the mess of Satan's evil and selfish spirit will stay where it goes.

"And they are getting a conscious sample, now, of what they could reap > Galatians 6:7-8 > so much more."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But this reads as a parable, though admittedly a parable especially for Jewish listeners and I could not be certain it was strictly teaching through metaphor alone, but at least I can be sure it is teaching through analogy if not metaphor. In other words, we are of course to learn about ignoring the poor and the outcome of ignoring the poor, and that's the entire point and reason He said it. So, I think it's a parable like the other parables.

First, I do not believe any parable is fictious or untrue. Many of Jesus's parables are things that we know that can happen and or probably already happened by sheer probability alone. Also, if Jesus told us make believe stories about people on Mars that do not exist to get his point across, it would kind of hurt his testimony in trying to teach us what is true in the spirit world. To put it to you another way: Shall we say, "Does Jesus need to tell us stories that are a lie in the real world to illustrate spiritual truth?" "Surely not." That would hurt Jesus's testimony if He did not tell the truth 100% of the time. In fact, when the Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable by saying that even the dogs eat of the crumbs from the Master's table, Jesus did not correct her by saying it was only a make believe story. Jesus actually commended her for her faith in expounding upon his real world example.

Second, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is nowhere said to be a parable. In fact, it is unlike all other parables in the fact that that story provides us with specific names of people and places.

Three, if something is symbolic or metaphorical in God's Word, there is usually an indication in the text that this is the case. The Bible does use metaphorical phrases to reference a real and literal thing. For example: Leviticus 18 says,

"The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness."
(Leviticus 18:8).​

This verse is saying that the father's nakedness is also the nakedness of his wife. In other words,

Special Bible language (in certain cases) tells us that:
The Father's nakedness = The Wife's nakedness.​

I believe this language is important because it helps to shed light on the Bible elsewhere. Ham had uncovered Noah's nakedness and then Noah cursed Ham's son. That doesn't make any sense. Why would Noah curse an innocent child just because his own father looked upon him when he was naked? It makes more sense to say that Ham uncovered Noah's wife's nakedness and the child that resulted was then cursed (Because it was a child brought forth by sexual immorality).

In other words, we need either context (i.e. the surrounding text) or cross references with "special bible language" telling us that the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is just a make believe story. We cannot just assume that it is make believe.

Actually, a parallel I found involving the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man in the Old Testament is in the story of Abraham. Abraham lifted up his eyes (looking at the three visitors) just as the Richman lifted up his eyes (when in torments). A while later, when Abraham talked with the Lord: he worried about his brother Lot being destroyed by fire and asked the question of the Lord: "Shall not the Judge of the Earth will do right?"

This is the question that a person should ask themselves when we see the Rich-man in torments. Is the Rich-man truly being punished fairly from our understanding of this story? We have to believe that God is judging fairly here indeed.


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[Halbhh]

Jason, we seem to agree on all you wrote in your first paragraph in this last response to me, and that makes me think I haven't communicated very well, since you appear to be trying to correct me. You are correcting me, yet agree with me, to the best of my ability to understand all you say there in your first paragraph. My fault for not writing more clearly?

This might help (or might not!) -- When Christ used metaphors, which He did so often, over and over, they are every last one Truth. Really. I mean it. Does that help? I don't mean simply they are Truth because He said them (though that is correct). More, I mean they are better Truths in practical, immediate application to life, here and now, also, even than most of our "facts" we think we know.

ah, I bet the trouble is the word "metaphor" itself! I don't use it as some sort of loaded theological term! I simply mean metaphor. Like in your example of the Canaanite women as "dog". That's "metaphor". It's precisely a metaphor. No extra theological baggage. I can stop using the word "metaphor" though if it has meanings I do not intend.

 

[Halbhh]

Perhaps I need to be much more specific in what I'm saying. Let's look at the text closely:

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

I'm using the word "metaphor" in the simple sense that in the above these words are metaphorical: "sheep", "dogs", "bread".

See? Not saying anything past that. These events in the above quote happened factually, of course. In the factual account of factual events, Christ used a couple of metaphors as He spoke, as He often does.

When Christ told various parables, He often tells stories that could happen in real life just like He relates them, but that is very much not the point at all. Example: In The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard everyone is paid the same total wages, even though they worked different amounts of hours(!). This can and does happen sometimes in real life, also. But the point of the story is that the metaphor of "wages" paid is about the reward of eternal life. "Wage" is a metaphor for eternal Life. Those converted late in life, doing little "work" in the Christian sense still get the same "wages" as those bearing their crosses for decades longer.

 

[JingshenBianxi]

If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."

In reading this, I have a question. Could it be then, that when Jesus said fear Him who can " destroy " BOTH body and soul IN...the Lake of Fire, that Death the Second time is the literal CEASING of EXISTENCE?...for if it's like the First Death, which is the literal body ceasing to exist, does this mean that there really is no ETERNAL TORMENT?

To be " destroyed " means to be eradicated. No longer existing. EXTINCT. So if the final Judgment on the wicked is to be utter destruction of Body and Soul in the Lake of Fire, I would think that a plausible thought in this regard would mean...that Hell is the literal place where the soul and body of wicked men...come to a LITERAL END. I suppose it would be very painful once dipped in that extremely hot lake but eventually....they're gone.

I'm not saying this is the bottom line Truth of the matter of Hell and the Lake of Fire but for some reason in reading this post it triggered my mind to think on Hell in this way. Words like " destroy " are now quite illuminated in my thinking.

 

[Greg Merrill]

We cannot conclude that the same fate of the devil and his minions apply to us. Demons have tormented mankind for thousands of years. So surely their punishment would naturally be longer. But again, if you were to read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 on the passages that refer to the devil, you would see that it speaks of the devil's end or destruction in both books. Furthermore, the Scriptures say that the last enemy to be destroyed is "death." This makes us assume that there are other enemies of God (prior to "death") that will also be destroyed, as well.

For the Second Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death" which is the end or destruction of our physical body. To assume that the "Second Death" is somehow magically metophorical is to change the meaning of things. It should no longer be called the "Second Death" if one did not die in a similar way like physical death (Whereby the body perishes and is no more). Furthemore, Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 a similar thing. He says fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Again, Jesus relates how we are to:

#1. Not fear man who can kill the body only (vs.)
#2. Fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire.

Man destroying the body (whereby it perishes) is related to Jesus destroying both body AND SOUL.
It is a contrast of the same thing.
Killing of the body (By Man) vs. killing of the body and soul (By Jesus).


...

That the body, or the soul is destroyed, doesn't mean it is annihilated. That is not what the Greek word meant. I often use this illustration: One can take a phonograph record, smash it to bits with a hammer. It is destroyed, but it is not annihilated. We were created to be in fellowship with God. When one is caste into the Lake of fire, the purpose for which they were created, they themselves if you will, are destroyed. We might look at a wretched, homeless, very old man that is lying in a gutter, obviously filled with drugs and alcohol by the marks on his body, the empty bottles around him, etc, and then say "That man has been destroyed."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)
So, it is possible to be "dead" while conscious in her pleasures. She is love-dead . . . by living selfishly. God is love, alive in love, immortal in love's eternal life. But sinners can consciously suffer "torment" (already > 1 John 4:18) and be conscious, but they are dead as far as love's life is concerned.

So, I offer how God's immortality refers to how He is alive in eternal love life.

But there are beings which are dead, but conscious . . . not alive in God's love.

And the spirit of evil > Ephesians 2:2 > will be kept somewhere, and fire will keep it there and control it; only fire can control evil and Satanic, selfish and stubborn, beings. And people who continue in the mess of Satan's evil and selfish spirit will stay where it goes.

"And they are getting a conscious sample, now, of what they could reap > Galatians 6:7-8 > so much more."

Yes, I am very familar with 1 Timothy 5:6. I use this verse against Eternal Security Proponents all the time to say that believers can go back to an unsaved state. These were believing widows; And some had turned aside after Satan. A person can be physically alive and yet be spiritually dead.

So yes, the Bible also does refer to death and life in a spiritual sense, as well.
Adam also died spiritually the day he ate of the wrong tree and he did not physically die that day.
But we have to realize that those who are spiritually dead now and will remain that way (of their own free will choice) are going to face the "Second Death" (Which is related to the "First Death."). It is a sequence. First and then Second. A like comparison. This is different than pointing to a word that is comparing a physical truth with a spiritual truth. A person can become spiritually dead and yet their soul and spirit still exist. They are dead in the sense to having any connection to God and His Kingdom. But when I compare the killing of the body in Matthew 10:28, it remains the same on both ends. Man killing the body and Jesus killing the body is the same. Jesus is able to kill the body again because there is going to be a resurrection of the damned or the wicked. You cannot call it the Second Death if it does not relate to the First Death in some way.

Nothing is being paralleled in 1 TImothy 5:6. It is simply stating how one is dead while one is alive (Which is obvious a clear reference to spiritual death) because it is contrasting life and death. Whereas Matthew 10:28 and Revelation 21:8 are making parallels because they are referring to something else by way of comparing each other specifically in the fact that they are related to each other.


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[AJTruth]

Hell (English), Hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew) was the name given to the abode of the dead between death and the resurrection. A place of departed spirits, to the unbeliever, a place of punishment & torments.

Genesis 2:17 Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 (A) 23 For the wages of sin is death;

Romans 3:23 all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(NOTE: ALL have sinned, not just some)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(NOTE: Have you ever known or heard of anyone in you life time that didn't die?)

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
(NOTE: That he may "depart" from hell)

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as Rachel's soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
(NOTE: As Rachel's soul was ""departing"" because she had died)

Psalm 9:17 (B) In hell their eyes are opened, and they see their mistakes about (rejecting) the Messiah, and find themselves in torments, under dreadful gnawings, and remorse of conscience; and having a terrible sensation of divine wrath, their worm dies not, and their fire is not quenched:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(NOTE: Paradise is the believers side of Hell, Hades, Sheol)

Luke 16:19 (A) There was a certain rich man,

20 (A) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 Lazarus, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(NOTE: Immediately unbelievers that rejected Christ begin reaping the rewards of unrighteousness)

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(NOTE: Being in TORMENTS: Punishment without pity, misery without mercy, crying without compassion)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(NOTE: The rich unbeliever BEGS for 1 drop of help. And receives NONE!)

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(NOTE: Abraham say's now thou art tormented)

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(NOTE: Although, he can't pass the gulf. The unbeliever see's Abraham & Lazarus. Proof of recognition beyond the grave)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(NOTE: Not only can they see one another, they can converse)

NOTE: Hell, Hades, Sheol - since the ascension of Christ. There's been no change of their place or condition. In fact Isaiah 5:14 (A) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give them up, they will be judged, and will pass into the lake of fire Rev 20:13; Rev 20:14.

When Christ ascended up on high (Eph 4:8) he led/took a multitude of believing captives with him (Matt 27:52-53). Scripture immediately adds, that He had previously descended first into the lower parts of the earth i.e. The paradise side of Hell, Hades, Sheol.

During the present church-age the unbelieving/wicked dead are still in Hell, Hades, Sheol, The believing/righteous dead are at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

FINAL NOTE: When we die our body goes into the dirt. The real us departs & is carried to paradise with God or to torment/hell without God. Where we await the grand finale:

Revelation 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That the body, or the soul is destroyed, doesn't mean it is annihilated. That is not what the Greek word meant. I often use this illustration: One can take a phonograph record, smash it to bits with a hammer. It is destroyed, but it is not annihilated. We were created to be in fellowship with God. When one is caste into the Lake of fire, the purpose for which they were created, they themselves if you will, are destroyed. We might look at a wretched, homeless, very old man that is lying in a gutter, obviously filled with drugs and alcohol by the marks on his body, the empty bottles around him, etc, and then say "That man has been destroyed."

Sorry, I will not accept your Greek interpretation unless you either: (a) Know how to translate English into the Greek (with the people of Greece agreeing with your translation) or (b) Unless you can prove your case by what other Scripture says plainly in the English. Yes, I have provided what Greek scholars have said in regards to Greek word "Gehenna" in Matthew 10:28, but it is not my own private Greek interpretation. Plus, we can see based on the light of the rest of the Bible that people are destroyed in the Lake of Fire and not what is commonly known as "hell" in Matthew 10:28. Yes, the word "hell" in the KJV is still correct, because Scripture suggests that hell is like an island that sits atop of the Lake of Fire (See Isaiah 34:14 cf. Deuteronomy 32:22). But we know Scripture says that death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). But more specificallly, "hell" (Gehenna) obviously refers to the Lake of Fire in Matthew 10:28 because like I said, hell is cast into the Lake of Fire and hell will give up it's dead, as well (Revelation 20:13). The thing is that you need to show us a verse in the plain English that says that "destruction" does not mean "destruction" based on either it's context or by pointing to cross references. Just taking your word for it does not really give me a reason to believe you.

As for your analogy: It doesn't hold up. If you smash the phonograph, it is destroyed. We see that the CORPSES are witnessed by the saints on the New Earth as mentioned in Isaiah 66. Corpses are dead lifeless husks of shells. When we say that the wicked are anniahilated, we are saying that they will be brought to ashes (as the Scriptures say). The corpses will continue to burn in the flames into ashes and the ashes could then join with the dirt or soil (like in the real world).

As for the analogy of the homeless man:
This is a very rare metaphorical example. Even if the word "destuction" or "destroyed" was not taken in a literal sense, we have other words in Scripture like "perish", "death", "die", "consumed by fire", "second death", "carcasses", and "ashes" (relating to the wicked) to give us a clue. In fact, more verses have to be spiritualized or turned into metaphors with the ECT view. Less verses are spiritualized or turned into metaphors with the Conditional Immortality view.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Hell (English), Hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew) was the name given to the abode of the dead between death and the resurrection. A place of departed spirits, to the unbeliever, a place of punishment & torments.

Genesis 2:17 Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 (A) 23 For the wages of sin is death;

Romans 3:23 all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(NOTE: ALL have sinned, not just some)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(NOTE: Have you ever known or heard of anyone in you life time that didn't die?)

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
(NOTE: That he may "depart" from hell)

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as Rachel's soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
(NOTE: As Rachel's soul was ""departing"" because she had died)

Psalm 9:17 (B) In hell their eyes are opened, and they see their mistakes about (rejecting) the Messiah, and find themselves in torments, under dreadful gnawings, and remorse of conscience; and having a terrible sensation of divine wrath, their worm dies not, and their fire is not quenched:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(NOTE: Paradise is the believers side of Hell, Hades, Sheol)

Luke 16:19 (A) There was a certain rich man,

20 (A) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 Lazarus, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(NOTE: Immediately unbelievers that rejected Christ begin reaping the rewards of unrighteousness)

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(NOTE: Being in TORMENTS: Punishment without pity, misery without mercy, crying without compassion)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(NOTE: The rich unbeliever BEGS for 1 drop of help. And receives NONE!)

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(NOTE: Abraham say's now thou art tormented)

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(NOTE: Although, he can't pass the gulf. The unbeliever see's Abraham & Lazarus. Proof of recognition beyond the grave)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(NOTE: Not only can they see one another, they can converse)

NOTE: Hell, Hades, Sheol - since the ascension of Christ. There's been no change of their place or condition. In fact Isaiah 5:14 (A) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give them up, they will be judged, and will pass into the lake of fire Rev 20:13; Rev 20:14.

When Christ ascended up on high (Eph 4:8) he led/took a multitude of believing captives with him (Matt 27:52-53). Scripture immediately adds, that He had previously descended first into the lower parts of the earth i.e. The paradise side of Hell, Hades, Sheol.

During the present church-age the unbelieving/wicked dead are still in Hell, Hades, Sheol, The believing/righteous dead are at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

FINAL NOTE: When we die our body goes into the dirt. The real us departs & is carried to paradise with God or to torment/hell without God. Where we await the grand finale:

Revelation 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Yes, I have already provided a list of verses that say that the wicked will be concious after death (which would also include the saints, as well). My original post says that I believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman to be a literal and true story (Which takes place in "hell").

There is no disputing that.
The key question is: What happens after that?
Is the Lake of Fire an eternal torture in flames for the wicked?
If so, then how can we explain the love of God or the goodness of God in relation to that type of thinking?


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