The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

[com7fy8]

Thank you, Jason, for your explanation. I think I understand what you mean. I will offer, about two parts of it >

Yes, I am very familar with 1 Timothy 5:6. I use this verse against Eternal Security Proponents all the time to say that believers can go back to an unsaved state. These were believing widows; And some had turned aside after Satan. A person can be physically alive and yet spiritually dead.

John speaks to people who have become "as He is" "in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) I understand that if our Heavenly Father has corrected usso that we are "as He is", we can not turn back to Satan. And this correction begins when one is "joined to the Lord" to be "one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) < this union with Jesus changes our nature so He keeps us, I understand. He has changed us enough so we begin real correction which makes us unable to turn completely to Satan. And God's correction succeeds in more and more making us unable to do sins. His love in us makes us alive to easily stay clear, also, of negative and nasty emotional stuff of fear's "torment", also > 1 John 4:18.

So, in case someone turns on God and goes the other way without ever changing and becoming perfected in His love, I consider this means the person did not really get started in spiritual union with Jesus and how God in His almighty power wins in the union. And we do have 1 John 2:19 which I think means that God finishes what He starts.

But when I compare the killing of the body in Matthew 10:28, it remains the same on both ends.

This says our Father is able to destroy body and soul. But destruction also can be conscious, if "Destruction and misery are in their ways" > in Romans 3:16. The destruction is how they are away from the presence of the Lord > 2 Thessalonians 1:9. But the sinner's body, for a while not conscious, can then be resurrected, but not into the eternal love life of God. The destruction will be how the person and one's body are not present with Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In reading this, I have a question. Could it be then, that when Jesus said fear Him who can " destroy " BOTH body and soul IN...the Lake of Fire, that Death the Second time is the literal CEASING of EXISTENCE?...for if it's like the First Death, which is the literal body ceasing to exist, does this mean that there really is no ETERNAL TORMENT?

To be " destroyed " means to be eradicated. No longer existing. EXTINCT. So if the final Judgment on the wicked is to be utter destruction of Body and Soul in the Lake of Fire, I would think that a plausible thought in this regard would mean...that Hell is the literal place where the soul and body of wicked men...come to a LITERAL END. I suppose it would be very painful once dipped in that extremely hot lake but eventually....they're gone.

I'm not saying this is the bottom line Truth of the matter of Hell and the Lake of Fire but for some reason in reading this post it triggered my mind to think on Hell in this way. Words like " destroy " are now quite illuminated in my thinking.

I am glad to hear that.
However, please take no offense, but I am a little disturbed by your avatar, my friend.
Maybe a picture in nature or a wholesome picture related to a point you want to make with a verse.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


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[Greg Merrill]

I am glad to hear that.
However, please take no offense, but I am a little disturbed by your avatar, my friend.
Maybe a picture in nature or a wholesome picture related to a point you want to make with a verse.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


...

Consider the point that the body doesn't actually cease to exist at death or any time after death. One of the first two principles of thermodynamics states the truth that nothing is created (nothing physically, not since the 6th day of creation) nor is destroyed. The little atoms that make up our bodies may be separated, but they are not destroyed. Jesus will resurrect all dead people one day, regathering these atoms be no problem for Him, if that is how He does it.

 

[wandererUK]

Isn't the concept of hell a NT construct rather than Hebrew? In fact, judging by the OT the Hebrews pretty much believed that when you die you are in the ground (Sheol), the place of darkness. Is that right? If so, isn't there a theological problem in as much that Christian believe only those who believe in Christ avoid hell? The OT peeps had no idea of Christ and would not have been able to 'accept him as their lord and saviour'.

 

[JingshenBianxi]

However, please take no offense, but I am a little disturbed by your avatar, my friend.

I'm sorry that you are disturbed at the biblical reality of being an alien to a world that is headed for destruction. I apologize that you can not or will not accept the application to being " called up in the sky to be with Jesus " like a UFO abduction. I do understand that you may still not be at the level of understanding in regards to being a " new creature "...or " creation " once IN CHRIST. I'm praying that you gain knowledge in what it means to be a " peculiar " people as stated in.. 1 Peter 2:9.

It is not my intent to disturb anyone with a " visual. " However, it is my intent to show that in Christ...I'm no longer OF...this World.

I am gifted, special, and strange...because the World loved darkness more than the Light. I, like others in the House of God...have found...the Light.

Which is what is in the hand of the.." alien "

 

[Butch5]

I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."

This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me). For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23). Need another analogy and or another verse? Okay. Well, "in this" in Luke 16:24 is sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me. Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
(Luke 12:47-48).

Sir Arhur Conan Doyle once said,
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Side Note:

Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.

As for the Lake of Fire being a place of annihialation:

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."

Anyways, Jesus is saying we should really fear Him because He has the true power of ending life or not. For if a believer's body dies, they will one day be resurrected and live with Jesus on the Eternal New Earth.


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Hi Jason,

I agree with your premise. I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about people burning in a "Hell" but rather is a condemnation against the Jewish leadership. When Jesus gave the parable He was talking to the Pharisees. I submit that the parable is actually about the destruction of the priesthood. Note that the Rich Man is a Jew and has five brothers. The priests came from the tribe of Levi, who had five brothers. Note that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen, so were the priests. Also, notice that the Rich man is in Hades, not Gehenna. Jesus said that the wicked would burn in Gehenna, not Hades. Hades is the grave. The Pharisees would have been well aware of what Jesus mean by saying that the Rich Man, a Jew, was being tormented in Hades in flames. It's a reference to an Old Testament prophecy in Deuteronomy.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1 (Deut. 32:15-24 KJV)

The fire burning in Hades is God's anger and judgment. The Rich man is suffering God's anger and judgment. This was about the happen to the priesthood God was about to put an end to it. Notice also that just before this parable Jesus said, 'the Law and the prophets were until John'. He's just told them that the Law ended with John. The priesthood would no longer be needed.

I can send you some more info on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man if you'd like.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Isn't the concept of hell a NT construct rather than Hebrew? In fact, judging by the OT the Hebrews pretty much believed that when you die you are in the ground (Sheol), the place of darkness. Is that right? If so, isn't there a theological problem in as much that Christian believe only those who believe in Christ avoid hell? The OT peeps had no idea of Christ and would not have been able to 'accept him as their lord and saviour'.

Before the N.T. was written Lk 24:27 tells of something Jesus said. "And beginning at Moses, and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." The "OT peeps" had a lot of ideas about Christ. That is why they were looking for the Christ to relieve them from the bondage of Rome in the times of Jesus. 3/4 of the Bible is said to be prophecy. Much of that prophecy is in the OT about the Christ. Google "OT prophecies of Christ" and see how many come up, and what some of them were.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you, Jason, for your explanation. I think I understand what you mean. I will offer, about two parts of it >John speaks to people who have become "as He is" "in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) I understand that if our Heavenly Father has corrected usso that we are "as He is", we can not turn back to Satan. And this correction begins when one is "joined to the Lord" to be "one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) < this union with Jesus changes our nature so He keeps us, I understand. He has changed us enough so we begin real correction which makes us unable to turn completely to Satan. And God's correction succeeds in more and more making us unable to do sins. His love in us makes us alive to easily stay clear, also, of negative and nasty emotional stuff of fear's "torment", also > 1 John 4:18.

So, in case someone turns on God and goes the other way without ever changing and becoming perfected in His love, I consider this means the person did not really get started in spiritual union with Jesus and how God in His almighty power wins in the union. And we do have 1 John 2:19 which I think means that God finishes what He starts.

There are so many verses on believers falling away it is not even funny.
Warnings in Scripture to the believer over and over all over Scripture.
A person has to willingly ignore or change a good chunk of these verses in order to not see them.
I will give you a few examples and then move on (Because it is not the topic of this thread).

When Adam sinned, he died spiritually the day he ate of the wrong tree.
The devil's lie to Eve was, "Yea, ye shall not surely die."
This is the lie of the devil since the beginning and he is still deceiving people with that same lie.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: When the son returned home to the father from living a life of sin (i.e. in being prodigal), his father said that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" two times. This was speaking in spiritual terms of course. The parable has a Jewish meaning and a Gentile meaning. The Gentile meaning is a picture of our entire life. We are saved as babies by Christ's sacrifice. Yet, when we grow up and go prodigal (into a life of sin) we can come back home to the Father thru Jesus again by being born again spiritually. This shows us that "sin" is indeed separation from God even despite the fact that we may have had favor with God at one time previously.

In Jude, we are told about those who are twice dead, and they are plucked up by the roots (Jude 1:12). These individuals are dead spiritually two times. They were dead spiritually before they came to God, and then they died spiritually a second time by going back to their old life of sin or by following another Jesus or gospel. They are plucked up by the roots. In the parable of the sower we learn that the seed is the Word of God (i.e. the Scriptures or the gospel message) (See Luke 8:11). The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37). The soil is the condition of the heart of the person (Mark 4:8). One of the hearts (or soil condition) who fell away was able to initially receive God's Word with joy but they fell away due to persecution. But they heard the word and with joy they received it initally (Matthew 13:20). This is unlike the seed that was cast by the way side (Whereby the wicked one took the seed out fo their heart). This was clearly an unbeliever because God's Word (i.e. the gospel message) was not received by them. The devil stole the message out of their heart and they do not have any spiritual undersanding. The reason the two seeds that received the seed initially and then fell away was because they did not have any root in God's Word so as to be fruitful. They did not pick up their cross and deny themselves and follow Jesus. They did not lose their life for Christ's sake thereby savig their soul. They went back to loving their life instead. So getting back to Jude 1:12, those who are plucked up by the roots are those who had been plucked up by the roots that they once had in God's Word. They did not continue in God's Word (Just like the many disciples who stopped following Jesus).

Then there is 1 Timothy 5. This is a big one.
1 Timothy 5:15 says that the believing widows turned aside after Satan. "Turning aside after Satan" is not possible if they were never free from Satan's grip beforehand. For a person cannot turn aside after Satan if they were always in his grip to begin with.
1 Timothy 5:12 says that certain believing widows had damnation because they cast off their first faith. Okay. You cannot cast off your first faith if you never had the real first faith to begin with. I cannot cast off a ball from my hand if the ball is not in my possession.
These widows who later turned aside after Satan and lived in pleasure were "dead" spiritually while they were yet physicallly "alive."

This says our Father is able to destroy body and soul. But destruction also can be conscious, if "Destruction and misery are in their ways" > in Romans 3:16. The destruction is how they are away from the presence of the Lord > 2 Thessalonians 1:9. But the sinner's body, for a while not conscious, can then be resurrected, but not into the eternal love life of God. The destruction will be how the person and one's body are not present with Jesus.

Destruction is something the wicked are DOING upon others in Romans 3:16. It is not saying that they are in a spiritual state of destruction while they are yet alive (Which would be unlike 1 Timothy 5:6 that says a person is dead while they are yet alive).

The "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that is upon the wicked is the blast of God, their being turned into ashes as the Scriptures say elswhere.


...

 

[Greg Merrill]

Hi Jason,

I agree with your premise. I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about people burning in a "Hell" but rather is a condemnation against the Jewish leadership. When Jesus gave the parable He was talking to the Pharisees. I submit that the parable is actually about the destruction of the priesthood. Note that the Rich Man is a Jew and has five brothers. The priests came from the tribe of Levi, who had five brothers. Note that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen, so were the priests. Also, notice that the Rich man is in Hades, not Gehenna. Jesus said that the wicked would burn in Gehenna, not Hades. Hades is the grave. The Pharisees would have been well aware of what Jesus mean by saying that the Rich Man, a Jew, was being tormented in Hades in flames. It's a reference to an Old Testament prophecy in Deuteronomy.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1 (Deut. 32:15-24 KJV)

The fire burning in Hades is God's anger and judgment. The Rich man is suffering God's anger and judgment. This was about the happen to the priesthood God was about to put an end to it. Notice also that just before this parable Jesus said, 'the Law and the prophets were until John'. He's just told them that the Law ended with John. The priesthood would no longer be needed.

I can send you some more info on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man if you'd like.

I am not really responding to what you have posted, for I haven't even read it all, but understand the gist. So I am not addressing you personally, so don't take personal offense. Whether you are wrong, or I am wrong is not my exact focus here, but I just wanted to share a verse that comes to mind. "All" that we believe on right now doesn't really determine our salvation. Here is the verse I wanted to share. "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end there of are the ways of death." Pro 14:12; 16:25. Two people on either side of a debate can be equally sincere, but sincerity doesn't always equate with correctness. A person can be sincerely wrong. Not that understanding that will change them, but then again some will learn and change.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason,

I agree with your premise. I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about people burning in a "Hell" but rather is a condemnation against the Jewish leadership. When Jesus gave the parable He was talking to the Pharisees. I submit that the parable is actually about the destruction of the priesthood. Note that the Rich Man is a Jew and has five brothers. The priests came from the tribe of Levi, who had five brothers. Note that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen, so were the priests. Also, notice that the Rich man is in Hades, not Gehenna. Jesus said that the wicked would burn in Gehenna, not Hades. Hades is the grave. The Pharisees would have been well aware of what Jesus mean by saying that the Rich Man, a Jew, was being tormented in Hades in flames. It's a reference to an Old Testament prophecy in Deuteronomy.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1 (Deut. 32:15-24 KJV)

The fire burning in Hades is God's anger and judgment. The Rich man is suffering God's anger and judgment. This was about the happen to the priesthood God was about to put an end to it. Notice also that just before this parable Jesus said, 'the Law and the prophets were until John'. He's just told them that the Law ended with John. The priesthood would no longer be needed.

I can send you some more info on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man if you'd like.

I am sorry, my friend.
I do not believe Jesus told untrue or make believe stories to get a truthful point across spiritually. I believed that all of the things that Jesus told us were true testimonies. If this was not the case, then people would doubt the words of Jesus as being true. Jesus did not talk about fantasies or stories that were a lie.


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[Greg Merrill]

Yes, I have already provided a list of verses that say that the wicked will be concious after death (which would also include the saints, as well). My original post says that I believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman to be a literal and true story (Which takes place in "hell").

There is no disputing that.
The key question is: What happens after that?
Is the Lake of Fire an eternal torture in flames for the wicked?
If so, then how can we explain the love of God or the goodness of God in relation to that type of thinking?


...

Though we disagree on some "minor" points, we agree on some major points. I appreciate your study, your sharing, and that you are definitely a brother in the Lord. We will enjoy eternity together, and at that time be totally agreed. How wonderful.

 

[com7fy8]

Jason, I offer I understand what you wrote about believers falling away. There is a certain amount of interpretation included in what you wrote . . . not all exact words of scripture. I already have been aware of the ideas which you have written.

I understand that if we trust Jesus to keep us and make sure we do not fail, He succeeds. And this is partly because of how He changes us so we are not able to fully fail. And Ephesians 1:12 says we "trusted in Christ".

And . . . about what

Destruction is something the wicked are DOING upon others in Romans 3:16.

There is the destruction of what Satan's evil spirit > Ephesians 2:2 > is doing in people, also.

And if we trust Jesus to keep us from Satan, He succeeds. And when we fail, we seek our Father for His correction > Hebrews 12:4-11. God in us works in our wills, to have us doing this which He desires > Philippians 2:13. Of our own free wills, we are sure to fail (2 Corinthians 3:4-5); therefore, we do so need to depend on Him.

So, in case we in any way imply and encourage that people depend on their own selves and wills, we could be helping them to fail.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Consider the point that the body doesn't actually cease to exist at death or any time after death. One of the first two principles of thermodynamics states the truth that nothing is created (nothing physically, not since the 6th day of creation) nor is destroyed. The little atoms that make up our bodies may be separated, but they are not destroyed. Jesus will resurrect all dead people one day, regathering these atoms be no problem for Him, if that is how He does it.

Well, I used to believe in ECT for a long time, my friend.
I even used to try and defend such a doctrine, as well.
One thing I could never do was explain the goodness or the morality behind ECT.
But I still held to it because that is what I knew the majority of Bible believing churches had taught.
But as I began to study the Scriptures more on my own with God, I had come to learn of the Conditional Immortality view. I was not initially accepting of it because I knew soul sleep was clearly unbiblical. But I discovered that there were others who believed in a literal hell and yet believed that the Lake of Fire was a place whereby the wicked was destroyed (After the Judgment). It was not an immediate switch overnight, either. I was on the fence for a while, too. I believed at one time that ECT and CI (Conditional Immortality) could be both true when I examined the Scriptures. But after more heavy research in God's Word with prayer, I discovered that ECT is unbiblical in a big way. Only 4 verses really hold ECT together. The rest of the verses on the destruction of the wicked, their being turned to ash, and melting like wax is just allegorized or thrown out the window. Things like "Second Death" is not really related to the "First Death" because they are both different things in the ECT view. The last enemy to be destroyed is death; But yet, maybe this "death" is not really destroyed because you do not think "destroyed" means "destroyed."

As for physical things not being totally destroyed and being transformed into a different form of energy: I have already mentioned that within this thread. That is not the idea here. The idea is if I take a piece of paper and light it on fire, it is no longer a piece of paper. I destroyed the paper. I can no longer write on such a piece of paper because it is no more. Sure it may be smoke and ashes, but I cannot write on those or use those for any good purpose for writing anything. It is no longer paper. It was destroyed. Do you understand that, my friend?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I offer I understand what you wrote about believers falling away. There is a certain amount of interpretation included in what you wrote . . . not all exact words of scripture. I already have been aware of the ideas which you have written.

I understand that if we trust Jesus to keep us and make sure we do not fail, He succeeds. And this is partly because of how He changes us so we are not able to fully fail. And Ephesians 1:12 says we "trusted in Christ".

And . . . about what There is the destruction of what Satan's evil spirit > Ephesians 2:2 > is doing in people, also.

Well, I cannot unlearn what I know God's Word says plainly.
However, perhaps this is a discussion for another time (Lord willing of course).

And if we trust Jesus to keep us from Satan, He succeeds. And when we fail, we seek our Father for His correction > Hebrews 12:4-11. God in us works in our wills, to have us doing this which He desires > Philippians 2:13. Of our own free wills, we are sure to fail (2 Corinthians 3:4-5); therefore, we do so need to depend on Him. So, in case we in any way imply and encourage that people depend on their own selves and wills, we could be helping them to fail.

Not in disagreement that is ultimately Christ that does the good work in believers, my friend.
I have a good collection of verses on this one; And it is a point I bring up many times against those who try to accuse me falsely of man directed works salvationism.

A believer walks with God and trusts in God for everything within the faith.
There is nothing that we do in the faith (Whereby we are trusting in our own power or might alone).
Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Though we disagree on some "minor" points, we agree on some major points. I appreciate your study, your sharing, and that you are definitely a brother in the Lord. We will enjoy eternity together, and at that time be totally agreed. How wonderful.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.
And may God bless you greatly this fine day.


...

 

[Der Alte]

First, History is not my authority on spiritual matters. History can be written by the victors. Please provide the Word of God. That is the real source of authority here in providing the truth. For just pointing to a group of believers in the past does not prove anything. Just because men lived in the past and believed something does not mean they are right.

I have provided scripture but it has been ignored. The ECF are the only written record of the faith and practice of the early church and most were native Greek speakers. What the early church believed and practiced is very much relevant. I consider the ECF to be correct until proven to be wrong

Second, if I say that somebody has eternal life and that somebody was eternally living it is saying the same thing. But if I say that there is everlasting punishment versus everlasting punishing there is a difference. With the word "punishment" and "punishing": One suggests a a one time event type action and the other expresses a present tense action. Now, "living" or "life" is more a state of being versus the word "punishment" (Which is an action or verb). If I live or if I have life, it does not necessarily mean I am taking action (Which is a verb). I can sleep and have life. I can sit very still and have life. So just having life does not always equate with an action per say. Yes, something that is alive does move, but the word "life" is not really a verb or an action exactly. It is more of a state of being (Which then leads to action as a result of that state of being). The words "punishment" and "punishing" are action words or verbs. It is something that somebody can do to someone else. Yes, God can make us "alive" and or to make us to "live eternally" but this would be God making us to exist in a particular state. Punishment (a one time event) and or punishing (on going continual action) is something that God would do to a particular individual that is for either correction and or to execute justice. God inflicts the Lake of Fire as a part of His punishment upon the wicked. This is an action whereby those who are punished are hurt and destroyed by the flames of the Lake of Fire. Whereas God giving life eternally to somebody means God is giving life to an individual whereby their state is changed as a part of their being. They will live eternally. Good things that God can do for those who have eternal life is an action that God can then take part in as a part of this new changed state (i.e. eternal life). Receiving a new living body does not neccesarily mean one is gaining a reward. For there is the resurrection of the damned, as well. But just receiving a new living body does not mean anything unless that body continues to live on in everlasting state. However, the problem with your belief technically speaking (in light of this) is that the wicked have everlasting life because they live eternally being tortured for all time by the flames of the Lake of Fire (Which of course is a contradiction of Scripture). The wicked in your book, also have eternal life (i.e. they are living in an eternal state). This does not make a lick of sense (Especially when we read about receiving eternal life or when we read about how we will never die).

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Life is a noun, living is a verb. Punishment is a noun, punishing is a verb.
There are three words translated life in the NT. ψυχή/psuche, ζωή/zoe and βίος/bios. Only zoe is ever used with "eternal life." There are three passages of scripture which speak of the unrighteous dead having conscious existence after death.
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול]] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekielo 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

In the NT there is the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luke 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[Butch5]

I am sorry, my friend.
I do not believe Jesus told untrue or make believe stories to get a truthful point across spiritually. I believed that all of the things that Jesus told us were true testimonies. If this was not the case, then people would doubt the words of Jesus as being true. Jesus did not talk about fantasies or stories that were a lie.


...

A parable is a story that reveals some other truth. We find in Scripture that Jesus only spoke to the Pharisees in parables because they rejected Him.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.1
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Matt. 13:33-35 KJV)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have provided scripture but it has been ignored. The ECF are the only written record of the faith and practice of the early church and most were native Greek speakers. What the early church believed and practiced is very much relevant. I consider the ECF to be correct until proven to be wrong


Life is a noun, living is a verb. Punishment is a noun, punishing is a verb.
There are three words translated life in the NT. ψυχή/psuche, ζωή/zoe and βίος/bios. Only zoe is ever used with "eternal life." There are three passages of scripture which speak of the unrighteous dead having conscious existence after death.
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול]] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekielo 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

In the NT there is the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luke 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

I believe the wicked will be conscious after they die in hell (But I believe it is possible that there may be periods of time where they sleep, as well - which is based on other verses that suggest that the departed souls are not aware of things). Yet, I also believe there are verses that cleary state that both the wicked and the saints experience things conciously after they die, as well. I have already listed both set of these verses already within this thread (Which is in support of both views). I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is a true and literal story that takes place after death (With the richman being consciously aware or awake of what was happening to him). The difference is that I do not believe that the Rich-man was tormented in the actual flames itself but that he was tormented by the HEAT of the flame (either nearby him or that was in the great gulf between him and Abraham). The words "in this" in Luke 16:24 I believe are similar to the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. It is also similar to Genesis 2:23 when Adam said to Eve, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." The word "this" was not in reference to his own flesh alone but to the flesh of the woman Eve (Who was within his sight or view). Much like the Rich-man used the word "this" to refer to the flame that was in front or nearby him.

The rich man could not be tortured in flames because if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a campfire, he would be screaming too much in pain to be able to able carry on a normal conversation.

If we are take Jesus's parables seriously in talking about spiritual truth, we have to be able to say that the reality in the after life is very similar to our real world, too.

Even FreeDictionary defines the word "in" as saying, "Within the limits, bounds, or area of:"
Usage example: "was hit in the face;"

Obvously a person's fist does not have to be literally inside a person's face in order for them to be "hit in the face."

Again, in Luke 16:24: I believe the Rich-man was using the words "in this" in reference to his discomfort of the HEAT of the flame of which he was pointing to (or referencing) the actual flames in "hell" that surrounded him (or that was in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham).

As for the Lake of Fire:
I believe that is when the flames will destroy or annihiate the wicked (Which is a time after the Judgment).


...

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

I offer I understand the other things you have said, Jason. And we have offered what we have. For now, it is time for me to go and do some things.

God bless you, too

Bill

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A parable is a story that reveals some other truth. We find in Scripture that Jesus only spoke to the Pharisees in parables because they rejected Him.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.1
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Matt. 13:33-35 KJV)

But nowhere does this passage say that parables are fictious or make believe stories to illustrate spiritual truth. On the contrary, many of the examples or parables Jesus gave were things that have already happened in real life. For example: You cannot put new wine into old wine skins, etc. This is something in the real world and not a story about some fictious science fiction story about some kind of alien beings on Mars somewhere (that really do not exist).

For if Jesus were to tell stories that were not true, it would damage his credibility in telling the truth. Again, I do not believe Jesus told stories that were based on a lie or that were not true. Jesus was not into telling lies or fictious stories.

In our culture it is normal to read or tell fictious stories and to watch fictious movies.
But this is not something Jesus did.


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