The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

[Der Alte]

Well, I used to believe in ECT for a long time, my friend.
I even used to try and defend such a doctrine, as well.
One thing I could never do was explain the goodness or the morality behind ECT.
But I still held to it because that is what I knew the majority of Bible believing churches had taught.
But as I began to study the Scriptures more on my own with God, I had come to learn of the Conditional Immortality view. I was not initially accepting of it because I knew soul sleep was clearly unbiblical. But I discovered that there were others who believed in a literal hell and yet believed that the Lake of Fire was a place whereby the wicked was destroyed (After the Judgment). It was not an immediate switch overnight, either. I was on the fence for a while, too. I believed at one time that ECT and CI (Conditional Immortality) could be both true when I examined the Scriptures. But after more heavy research in God's Word with prayer, I discovered that ECT is unbiblical in a big way. Only 4 verses really hold ECT together. The rest of the verses on the destruction of the wicked, their being turned to ash, and melting like wax is just allegorized or thrown out the window. Things like "Second Death" is not really related to the "First Death" because they are both different things in the ECT view. The last enemy to be destroyed is death; But yet, maybe this "death" is not really destroyed because you do not think "destroyed" means "destroyed."
As for physical things not being totally destroyed and being transformed into a different form of energy: I have already mentioned that within this thread. That is not the idea here. The idea is if I take a piece of paper and light it on fire, it is no longer a piece of paper. I destroyed the paper. I can no longer write on such a piece of paper because it is no more. Sure it may be smoke and ashes, but I cannot write on those or use those for any good purpose for writing anything. It is no longer paper. It was destroyed. Do you understand that, my friend?...

I too have studied this issue.
The word translated "destruction" in the NT is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi. It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
.....(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
.....The definition of apolummi, the "destruction" word from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, one of, if not , the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

A piece of paper that is burned does not cease to exist. Neither does a prodigal son, lost sheep, spoiled food and honey, spoiled wine, broken wine skins, falling hair, etc. all are said to be "apolummi." So most of the time this word does not mean to cease to exist.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I too have studied this issue.
The word translated "destruction" in the NT is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi. It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
.....(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
.....The definition of apolummi, the "destruction" word from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, one of, if not , the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

A piece of paper that is burned does not cease to exist. Neither does a prodigal son, lost sheep, spoiled food and honey, spoiled wine, broken wine skins, falling hair, etc. all are said to be "apolummi." So most of the time this word does not mean to cease to exist.

Well, I studied the issue without any Greek studies and just by plaining reading God's Word in the English. Many times we think we know what the Greek says but we really don't. This is not to say that we cannot know what certain words mean in the Greek (in certain cases). But I believe the way we can know this is by comparing it with what our Bibles say in English. For the English should not conflict with the Greek. My Bible in English should say the same thing in the Greek because that is what it was translated from the Greek (i.e. the New Testament respectively of course). The best way I can know Greek is if I actually know how to speak and write Greek among the people who live in Greece. In other words, my confidence in God's Word should primarily rely upon God's Word in my own language that people here can understand.

As for a piece of paper being burned: It is destroyed if I burn it. It is no longer paper anymore. I cannot write upon it. It may be transformed into a different form of matter or energy, but that does not help me. It is no longer paper. Just as if a person destroys a living body of a person and turns them into ash. A person cannot interact with ashes in the same way that they can with a living person. For the living person they once knew has been destroyed.

Side Note:

Also, did you study this issue from the perspective that Conditional Immortality could be right?
Or did you do a biased ECT type study, my friend?


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[Der Alte]

I believe the wicked will be conscious after they die in hell (But I believe it is possible that there may be periods of time where they sleep, as well - which is based on other verses that suggest that the departed souls are not aware of things). Yet, I also believe there are verses that cleary state that both the wicked and the saints experience things conciously after they die, as well. I have already listed both set of these verses already within this thread (Which is in support of both views). I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is a true and literal story that takes place after death (With the richman being consciously aware or awake of what was happening to him). The difference is that I do not believe that the Rich-man was tormented in the actual flames itself but that he was tormented by the HEAT of the flame (either nearby him or that was in the great gulf between him and Abraham). The words "in this" in Luke 16:24 I believe are similar to the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. It is also similar to Genesis 2:23 when Adam said to Eve, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." The word "this" was not in reference to his own flesh alone but to the flesh of the woman Eve (Who was within his sight or view).
The rich man could not be tortured in flames because if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a campfire, he would be screaming too much in pain to be able to able carry on a normal conversation.
If we are take Jesus's parables seriously in talking about spiritual truth, we have to be able to say that the reality in the after life is very similar to our real world, too.
Even FreeDictionary defines the word "in" as saying, "Within the limits, bounds, or area of:"
Usage example: "was hit in the face;"
Obvously a person's fist does not have to be literally inside a person's face in order for them to be "hit in the face."
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We are not discussing the English word "in" and its meanings. The word under discussion is the Greek word ἐν. It occurs twice in vs. 23 and twice in vs. 24

Luke 16:23 And in [ἐν] hell he lift up his eyes, being in [ἐν] torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in [ἐν] water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in [ἐν] this flame.​

The word means the same thing all three times. Not near, around, behind etc. hades and not near, around, behind, etc. the water. The rich man was in, not near, around, behind, etc. the flame.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are not discussing the English word "in" and its meanings. The word under discussion is the Greek word ἐν. It occurs twice in vs. 23 and twice in vs. 24

Luke 16:23 And in [ἐν] hell he lift up his eyes, being in [ἐν] torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in [ἐν] water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in [ἐν] this flame.​

The word means the same thing all three times. Not near, around, behind etc. hades and not near, around, behind, etc. the water. The rich man was in, not near, around, behind, etc. the flame.

Well, this is a real problem. You are rendering the English as useless or unprofitable and looking to a language that you really do not know. Do you know how to translate a page in English into the Greek (With the people of Greece agreeing with your translation)? Even if you could do so, how am I supposed to know that your Greek interpretation is correct? I am not an expert translator of the Greek language. Granted, there are differences in Biblical and Modern Greek, but at least knowing Modern Greek will help to give you a better handle on what the Biblical Greek says. So if you are to continue this course of pointing to the Greek, I will not accept that because you are not qualified. Anymore than I would accept a doctor to work on my car. They are not qualified.

But again, you are refusing to look at the Bible in the English and doing a study in the English.
This is a real problem.
We are speaking and reading in the English now.
If the English words we used now could not be trusted, then having a line of communication between each other would be impossible.
So my encouragment is for you to make your case here using the English and not the Greek.
If you continue to use the Greek, I will turn you down like I would turn down a doctor who is seeking to work on my car.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, did you study this issue from the perspective that Conditional Immortality could be right?
Or did you do a biased ECT type study, my friend?


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[Der Alte]

Well, I studied the issue without any Greek studies and just by plaining reading God's Word in the English. Many times we think we know what the Greek says but we really don't. This is not to say that we cannot know what certain words mean in the Greek (in certain cases). But I believe the way we can know this is by comparing it with what our Bibles say in English. For the English should not conflict with the Greek. My Bible in English should say the same thing in the Greek because that is what it was translated from the Greek (i.e. the New Testament respectively of course). The best way I can know Greek is if I actually know how to speak and write Greek among the people who live in Greece. In other words, my confidence in God's Word should primarily rely upon God's Word in my own language that people here can understand.

Does destroy, i.e. to cause to cease to exist, mean the same thing as spilled wine, broken wineskins, spoiled wine and food, tarnished gold, fading beauty, lost sheep, prodigal son etc?

As for a piece of paper being burned: It is destroyed if I burn it. It is no longer paper anymore. I cannot write upon it. It may be transformed into a different form of matter or energy, but that does not help me. It is no longer paper. Just as if a person destroys a living body of a person and turns them into ash. A person cannot interact with ashes in the same way that they can with a living person. For the living person they once knew has been destroyed.

I have already quoted three passages of scripture that show unrighteous dead in sheol and hades people moving, speaking etc. They were no longer functioning as humans in this world but they continued to exist.

Side Note:

Also, did you study this issue from the perspective that Conditional Immortality could be right?
Or did you do a biased ECT type study, my friend?

...

Funny that you should ask that, I notice that you only quoted websites which agree with your point of view. I don't quote random websites I quote credible sources e.g. Lexicons, ECF etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does destroy, i.e. to cause to cease to exist, mean the same thing as spilled wine, broken wineskins, spoiled wine and food, tarnished gold, fading beauty, lost sheep, prodigal son etc?

Verses in the English only please (with the specific word highlighted) that use the same Greek word.
But you have to realize that context determines the use of the word, too.
We cannot just define a word and say that is it.
The Bible has synonyms and or homonyms within it, too.

I have already quoted three passages of scripture that show unrighteous dead in sheol and hades people moving, speaking etc. They were no longer functioning as humans in this world but they continued to exist.

I am not in dispute that the wicked have conscious awareness after they die.

Funny that you should ask that, I notice that you only quoted websites which agree with your point of view. I don't quote random websites I quote credible sources e.g. Lexicons, ECF etc.

Who decides whether or not the website is credible or not?
Also, I used to be a strong supporter of ECT at one time. I even was on the fence with ECT after discovering Conditonal Immortality. So it was not an overnight change. Scripture is what ultimately convinced me to move over to Conditional Immortality as the only true and Biblical positon on this matter.


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[Der Alte]

Well, this is a real problem. You are rendering the English as useless or unprofitable and looking to a language that you really do not know. Do you know how to translate a page in English into the Greek (With the people of Greece agreeing with your translation)? Even if you could do so, how am I supposed to know that your Greek interpretation is correct? I am not an expert translator of the Greek language. Granted, there are differences in Biblical and Modern Greek, but at least knowing Modern Greek will help to give you a better handle on what the Biblical Greek says. So if you are to continue this course of pointing to the Greek, I will not accept that because you are not qualified. Anymore than I would accept a doctor to work on my car. They are not qualified.
But again, you are refusing to look at the Bible in the English and doing a study in the English.
This is a real problem.
We are speaking and reading in the English now.
If the English words we used now could not be trusted, then having a line of communication between each other would be impossible.
So my encouragment is for you to make your case here using the English and not the Greek.
If you continue to use the Greek, I will turn you down like I would turn down a doctor who is seeking to work on my car.
...

I first started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany, while working with Greek immigrant laborers. I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level two decades later.
I don't know if you noticed I did not give my opinion about the Greek but quoted from an accredited Greek lexicon. I have made my case from the English showing that the word translated "destruction" 78% of the time does not refer to something that ceased to exist, examples already given and ignored.. I think you even observed that the KJV English differs in meaning from modern American English. In fact, there are more than 800 words in the KJV which mean something different today or have dropped out of use altogether.. E.g. anon, assay, bewray, chambering, ere,

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm sorry that you are disturbed at the biblical reality of being an alien to a world that is headed for destruction. I apologize that you can not or will not accept the application to being " called up in the sky to be with Jesus " like a UFO abduction. I do understand that you may still not be at the level of understanding in regards to being a " new creature "...or " creation " once IN CHRIST. I'm praying that you gain knowledge in what it means to be a " peculiar " people as stated in.. 1 Peter 2:9.

You do not need to insult me. I am fully aware of the importance in being a new creature in Christ and being a holy pilgrim in a strange land.

But I do not believe that "aliens" are good in the biblical sense.
No offense, but I believe aliens are demons in disguise.
For it is not a coincidence that both alien encounters and ghost encounters have been met with the smell of brimstone. It is also not a coincidence that aliens do not like Jesus. For Christians have reported in casting them out in Jesus's name.

I remember a Pastor once telling me about how the word "owls" is in reference to demons in the Bible (Note: The word "owl" does not always mean demons in every occurence of course). Anyways, if you will notice, owls have black almond shape eyes (Which is similar to the eyes of grey aliens).

I really did not think much of this at the time the Pastor said this.
Then, when I came across a trailer online a long time ago for a movie called the "Fourth Kind."
Do you know what I saw in that trailer? The eyes of owls were morphing to be like the eyes of the grey aliens. BTW ~ It is a very disturbing trailer (even back in the day when I watched secular movies).

It is not my intent to disturb anyone with a " visual. " However, it is my intent to show that in Christ...I'm no longer OF...this World.

Use another analogy. Aliens are not what you think they are.

I am gifted, special, and strange...because the World loved darkness more than the Light. I, like others in the House of God...have found...the Light.

Which is what is in the hand of the.." alien "

God's Word says love not the world neither the things in the world. Alien occult religions exist. They chase UFO's. etc. These things are a part of this world and I strongly believe they are not of God. Pray about it and do your own homework with God's Word on the matter, my friend.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I first started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany, while working with Greek immigrant laborers. I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level two decades later.
I don't know if you noticed I did not give my opinion about the Greek but quoted from an accredited Greek lexicon. I have made my case from the English showing that the word translated "destruction" 78% of the time does not refer to something that ceased to exist, examples already given and ignored.. I think you even observed that the KJV English differs in meaning from modern American English. In fact, there are more than 800 words in the KJV which mean something different today or have dropped out of use altogether.. E.g. anon, assay, bewray, chambering, ere,

But I do not know how to speak or write Greek. There is no way for me to verify what you say in Greek is true unless I were to study and know Greek myself. Also, a Lexicon can be biased, as well. It is not the written of God. How do I know James Strong and his buddies got it right? Hence, why I encourage you to just keep this as an English word study. Granted, you can use Greek words to bring up the English verses, but show me the words in English only (with verse numbers) and leave out the Greek. I do not speak and write Greek.


...

 

[Der Alte]

But I do not know how to speak or write Greek. There is no way for me to verify what you say in Greek is true unless I were to study and know Greek myself. Also, a Lexicon can be biased, as well. It is not the written of God. How do I know James Strong and his buddies got it right? Hence, why I encourage you to just keep this as an English word study. Granted, you can use Greek words to bring up the English verses, but show me the words in English only (with verse numbers) and leave out the Greek. I do not speak and write Greek.
...

Cop-out. The Bible was not written in Elizabethan English. It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. You say, "that lexicons can be biased ...How do I know James Strong and his buddies got it right?" I did not, and rarely do, quote Strong's. Strong's is not a lexicon it is a concordance which shows where words occur in scripture. The definition part of Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. The sources I have quoted have been peer reviewed, by scholars, with many viewpoints, if there were errors they would have long ago been identified and corrected. The same cannot be said for the random websites you quote.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Cop-out. The Bible was not written in Elizabethan English. It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. You say, "that lexicons can be biased ...How do I know James Strong and his buddies got it right?" I did not, and rarely do, quote Strong's. Strong's is not a lexicon it is a concordance which shows where words occur in scripture. The definition part of Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. The sources I have quoted have been peer reviewed, by scholars, with many viewpoints, if there were errors they would have long ago been identified and corrected. The same cannot be said for the random websites you quote.

Jesus said beware of the scribes.
The scribes are those who "trans-SCRIBED" the law or the Holy Scriptures.
So I am not interested in what is peer reviewed.
What I am interested in is what does God's Word say plainly in the English.
James says God chose the poor of this world to be rich in faith.
The poor is simple.
He is not going to go to a fancy expensive Bible school or have Greek and lexicon tools at his disposal.
He may be the simple farmer just struggling to put food on the table whereby he just has a Bible in plain English. But then somebody who thinks they know Greek says that the passage or verse they believed for years does not really mean what they think it says.
God was able to translate other people's languages for one another just fine in Acts 2.
Also, nowhere in God's Word does he prophetically speak about how we are to study the Greek and Hebrew for today.
So I see your lack of being able to explain the Bible to me in English as a cop out, my friend.
Therefore, I challenge you to prove your case on this point in the plain English.


...

 

[joinfree]

....but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.
...

Well, mister Judge, how many "years" you would give to the Adolf Hitler?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, mister Judge, how many "years" you would give to the Adolf Hitler?

Even unending endless torture is not a fair and just punishment for Hitler's crimes. While his sins were great, they are still finite. But imagine if Hitler came to Jesus Christ. Could not those many sins he had be forgiven? Sure they can. Paul was a persecutor of Christians. So if God is willing to have sooo much mercy, why would He seek also have an endless amount of wrath (That goes beyond fair justice)? It doesn't sound consistent with the loving God of the Bible that we know. For God so loved the world; God is love; God sends rain and the righteous and the unrighteous; God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance; And Jesus told the Father about those who crucified Him, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." This God does not sound like the God of ECT.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps it should give you pause that you share with JWs an annihilationist view of God's eternal punishment of the wicked. Rather than be insulted, you should be concerned that you have your view in common with a cult.

This is a false accusation. Again, JW's do not believe in a literal hell. I do believe in a literal hell. I also believe it is possible that the wicked may suffer for a certain amount of time in proportion to the sin they committed here upon this Earth in the Lake of Fire, as well (Before they are annihilated). Also, I will bring up the point about Catholicism (in relation to this point here). Just because Catholics believe in the Trinity, does that mean you agree with everything the Catholics do as being biblical? If I said you are "like a Catholic" and then later said you were not full head on Catholic, that would not make you feel good to hear that. You would think I was still calling you a Catholic. Plus, you are distorting the truth of what I actually believe and trying to say I believe the same way as JW's on the topic of annihilation and hell (Which is not simply true). In any event, I will rejoice in the Lord by your false accusation against me. For that is what the Lord tells me to do (When such a thing happens). For JW's believe the wicked will not be punished in hell in any way. However, I do not believe that.

Insofar as you hold to an annihilationist view you are like a JW.

So does this mean you are like a Catholic because you believe in the Trinity? See, guilt by association does not always apply, my friend. Also, I believe it is possible that there will be some different degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire, as well. So my belief is not 100% exactly like their belief.

Well, at the least, we share a Trinitarian understanding of God - just as you share an annihilationist view of hell with the JWs. I never asserted, however, that this made you a Jehovah's Witness; that was a conclusion you jumped to all on your own.

So I am like a JW but I am not a JW? To me that is splitting hairs. For example: If Bob said to Rick that he was like a man harlot but he really was not a man harlot, that would not make Rick feel like Bob was not accusing him of being a man harlot. Also, if Rick was not a man harlot in any way, and Bob was saying he was "like" a man harlot, this would be a false accusation and it would be wrong. The false accusation you put forth was simply done as a means to get others to distance themselves from looking at the verses in the Bible on the Conditional Immortality view for themselves because it too closely resembles the JW cult. It is best that people just don't study God's Word, and be a good Berean to see whether those things be so or not (by way of prayer with God). But built by association does not always work, my friend. For it is written,

"And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see." (John 1:46).​

Anyways, I believe you are accusing me falsely and or attacking me because your position for ECT is not as strong as you would like it to be, my friend.

For if it was strong, then you would explain to me how burning the wicked in horrible amounts of pain for all time is moral, just, and good and is consistent with the loving God we see in the Holy Scriptures. But I know you are not able to do that.



...

 

[Blade]

Its not what we THINK or BELIEVE that makes this true. Some (not you) take a GOD and pull Him down to mans level. So many try to apply there belief there feelings thoughts and ideas to GOD. One man takes something he should not.. killed. One just touched the mnt. 3000 simply made the wrong choice. There is SO much more and its not better. Yet.. this does not even begin to give us an idea into a GOD that has always been. The bible is His word and its He. Yet its not all Him. What about ALL the other stuff Jesus alone did that was written were not enough books to hold it all? What about all the things Jesus said after He rose yet was here 40more days?

And who is right? You? Seems you studied really good. Yet what about the others that spent a life time doing this knowing Hebrew and Greek and yet dont come close to what you think? Like the 12 that came back so happy so over joyed that even the demons were subject unto them. Yet TRUTH spoke open their eyes. Dont be so happy demons are subject unto you but that your names are written in heaven.

So for me... if someone burns forever or taken away as if they never were (Father ..please forgive me). Matters not. Both = one thing. Not with HIM that loves them so much. But remember like all the Fallen angels and demons they MADE the choice. No one is lost unless they new. God does not make mistakes. He leaves the 99 and goes after the one. He never once had to say "turn of burn"..never. Man does. Man uses fear.

Jesus is REAL! Where is this friend this brother this savior this GOD? Where is this sweet sweet Holy Spirit that HE told us (His words) that if we ask the Father the Holy Spirit He will give it. WHERE is the Holy Spirit? And GOD? That as is written is in you to work and to do? Jesus in the Father and the Father in Him and Jesus in? IN IN IN IN not around not about.. but IN US! And we are in HIS hands..and where are Christs hands? In the Fathers that drops nothing. Seems I had to remind some WHERE this GOD LIVES!

And why I dont know..WHY we can not just when we get stuck just ASK HIM? For HIS sheep KNOW HIS VOICE not guess not wonder..but KNOW IT! This means HE SPEAKS. NT.. the Holy Spirit.. HE said HE told us.. seems again HE SPEAKS! Blood of JESUS.. give me a brake.. Who who who are you? WHOS are you? WHOS your Father?

For me.. fact is.. you are with Him.. or your not. Hell.. all this was not made for man. But.. God HAS to give to those that follow Satan the same reward. We just think like man and to burn for ever.. MAN would not do this? Who are WE compared to HIM? What are our thoughts are ways to His? They are night and day. His ways are not ours nor His ways. And like it or not.. HE will NEVER ask us.. "is it ok?" no.. those books He looks sees. And HE new before this world was just who would serve Him. Each one made the choice..they know..no one is lost by chance. And He left the 99 for just the one. HE left heaven.. He didnt want ONE to be lost. He did what we never can do. ..sorry if I didnt answer or went the wrong way

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When we read verses like Isaiah 55:8, that says,

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8).​

We have to realize that this is in context to forsaking wicked actions and evil thoughts whereby one returns unto the Lord (See verse 7).

This is not a new teaching in the Bible. When a person forsakes their evil ways, and they repent of their sins to God, they will begin to have understanding of the things of God. It is not an overnight process of learning (of course). A person has to study to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15).

The problem with Eternal Concious Torment relates to this in a way. I believe a person has to shut down their moral compass in order to believe in Eternal Concious Torment (ECT). They cannot explain the morality of ECT and they desperately try to use 5 or so verses (Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10) so as to hold their belief together.

However, I really want to know what God's Word says according to how God desires me to understand it. So on occasion I ask God, What if I am not exactly correct? I sometimes asking questions like this for myself because I really want to please God in knowing what His Word truly says (And not what some church teaches).

So I ask myself: Is what I believe correct about hell in regards to the Richman and the flames? Today, I thought, what if the Rich-man was really in the flames? What does that mean? Well, if it is true, it means that this flame is not really all that bad because he was not screaming uncontrollably like we see in certain movies and or Christian videos. See, people have an image of hell already in their mind of how it is. So that is what they impress upon the text when they read it. So I am willing to believe what the text says at face value. I see the Bible tell me about how the beast and the false prophet are in the Lake of Fire for a thousand years. But Scripture says these are demons. No humans are said to burn for that amount of time in Scripture. This is important to understand because demons tormented mankind for thousands of years. So if a person believes in ECT, they have to add to Scripture the idea that man is the same like demons and will also be in the Lake of Fire for the same amount of time (and or even longer). But no text says this, though. Assumptions are made.

But what about the phrase about how they were tormented day and night forever and ever? In Revelation 20:10, this in reference to demons; And in Revelation 14:11, it refers to the metaphorical phrase used in Isaiah 34:10; And those who have no rest day or night is in reference to those who were currently worshiping the beast (while they were yet alive). They had no rest while worshiping the beast because of their painful boils (Revelation 16:2).

Also, as for the word "forever." Well, again, do a word study on the word "forever" and it's related words and you will discover a long list of examples of the word "forever" and it's related synonyms as being referred to in the temporal sense. Well, actually the word "forever" is true in the sense that is is forever in context to a temporary environment, or a temporary covenant, etc. Philemon 1:15 is a great example of this. The word "forever" is only true as long as Onesimus and his master are alive here upon this Earth. Anyways, if you do not want to do the study yourself on the word "forever", I have done it for you. Here is a list of verses showing you how the word "forever" (and it's related synonyms) does not always mean "forever." Just check out Post #2 of this thread.

In any event, I pray that folks here take the time to examine both viewpoints very thoroughly in the Scriptures and by way of prayer. Do not take my word for it. Do your own study on this topic. Seek the truth. Ask God, which viewpoint is the correct one. Keep asking if you got it right. Then pray and read His Word and consider both options as being true. Be objective and do not side with just one side because that is all you have ever known or because you respect your church or the church world (that believes that way).

Anyways, may God bless you all.
And please be well.


...

 

[Gabriel Anton]

I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."

This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me). For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23). Need another analogy and or another verse? Okay. Well, "in this" in Luke 16:24 is sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me. Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
(Luke 12:47-48).

Sir Arhur Conan Doyle once said,
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Side Note:

Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.

As for the Lake of Fire being a place of annihialation:

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."

Anyways, Jesus is saying we should really fear Him because He has the true power of ending life or not. For if a believer's body dies, they will one day be resurrected and live with Jesus on the Eternal New Earth.


...

Peace be with you.


There are a few Experts in this field of Theology who have provided very good answers to you in respect to using the Word of God in their proofs, refutations and deliberations.


When learning the subject of Truth, absence of Pride is required, otherwise Pride gets in the way of Truth. This is my little contribution for you.


I noticed that the biggest barrier to you that punishment from God is Forever is that you believe that because man commit sins in a temporal realm like Earth so his sins must be Finite in number therefore his punishments should also be finite and not eternal or forever.

You believe that if God were to punish Man with eternal punishments like eternal torture that God would be unjust and unfair.


So I am going to demonstrate to you that God punishing Man with eternal punishments like eternal torture is fair and just.

I will show you that sins against God are not finite in this temporal realm called Earth.

The easiest way to define sin is basically willful disobedience to the Will of God or the Word of God.

The Word of God basically contains the Will of God.

The Word of God is Eternal.

Those who act on the Word of God to do the Will of God Lives Forever.


Now what happens to those who sin against the Eternal Word?

Every sin committed in this temporal realm becomes an eternal sin against the Eternal Word of God.

An eternal sin requires an eternal punishment.

Eternal sins require eternal punishments.


This is just basic Judgment 101 from an Eternal perspective.


Now we go into more complex matters.

What happens to sinners who commit sins against the Eternal Word but when given the Opportunity to be forgiven by the Eternal Word through His Eternal and Immortal Sacrifice of Pain and Suffering through the Offering of His Body and Eternal Soul with All His Blood and Water being Spilled for the Salvation of sinners, Reject the Eternal Word's Offer of Salvation and Offer of Grace and Mercy?

Now when the Infinite and Eternal Mercy of the Eternal Word is Rejected, the sinner then falls into the Infinite and Eternal Justice of the Eternal Word.

Infinite and Eternal Punishment of Torture and Misery awaits the sinner. They call this Eternal Death, Spiritual Death, The Death of Death, to Die Die, to Die Forever, Hell, the Wrath of God, Eternally Screwed, Lake of Fire.

That's the end result when you try to screw and cheat the Most Powerful Entity and Being in Existence who is Eternal.

I must also confess that when I see a Man trying to judge the Eternal Word or God, it's like a maggot trying to understand a human being. In the short amount of time that Man is alive, you can never learn or understand someone who has been around for, "Before Abraham came to be, I AM."

God bless you.

 

[joinfree]

Even unending endless torture is not a fair and just punishment for Hitler's crimes.
...

There is no doubt in God's existence, there is no doubt in Bible, there is no doubt in infinite Lake of Fire. So, be good for goodness sake. Such is the reality. Without the infinite Fire there is no infinite reason to be good one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Peace be with you.


There are a few Experts in this field of Theology who have provided very good answers to you in respect to using the Word of God in their proofs, refutations and deliberations.


When learning the subject of Truth, absence of Pride is required, otherwise Pride gets in the way of Truth. This is my little contribution for you.


I noticed that the biggest barrier to you that punishment from God is Forever is that you believe that because man commit sins in a temporal realm like Earth so his sins must be Finite in number therefore his punishments should also be finite and not eternal or forever.

You believe that if God were to punish Man with eternal punishments like eternal torture that God would be unjust and unfair.


So I am going to demonstrate to you that God punishing Man with eternal punishments like eternal torture is fair and just.

I will show you that sins against God are not finite in this temporal realm called Earth.

The easiest way to define sin is basically willful disobedience to the Will of God or the Word of God.

The Word of God basically contains the Will of God.

The Word of God is Eternal.

Those who act on the Word of God to do the Will of God Lives Forever.


Now what happens to those who sin against the Eternal Word?

Every sin committed in this temporal realm becomes an eternal sin against the Eternal Word of God.

An eternal sin requires an eternal punishment.

Eternal sins require eternal punishments.


This is just basic Judgment 101 from an Eternal perspective.


Now we go into more complex matters.

What happens to sinners who commit sins against the Eternal Word but when given the Opportunity to be forgiven by the Eternal Word through His Eternal and Immortal Sacrifice of Pain and Suffering through the Offering of His Body and Eternal Soul with All His Blood and Water being Spilled for the Salvation of sinners, Reject the Eternal Word's Offer of Salvation and Offer of Grace and Mercy?

Now when the Infinite and Eternal Mercy of the Eternal Word is Rejected, the sinner then falls into the Infinite and Eternal Justice of the Eternal Word.

Infinite and Eternal Punishment of Torture and Misery awaits the sinner. They call this Eternal Death, Spiritual Death, The Death of Death, to Die Die, to Die Forever, Hell, the Wrath of God, Eternally Screwed, Lake of Fire.

That's the end result when you try to screw and cheat the Most Powerful Entity and Being in Existence who is Eternal.

I must also confess that when I see a Man trying to judge the Eternal Word or God, it's like a maggot trying to understand a human being. In the short amount of time that Man is alive, you can never learn or understand someone who has been around for, "Before Abraham came to be, I AM."

God bless you.

First, you make wrong assumptions about me, dear sir. I used to strongly believe in ECT (Eternal Concious Torment) at one time and even tried to defend the morality of it on Christian forums and I was against Conditional Immortality. Granted, I was never able to make a real world example out of the goodness or morality behind ECT. It was like something nobody could really explain or talk about it. You just accepted it because that is what all the Bible believing churches believed. In fact, later after examining the Scriptures, I was later on the fence in regards to Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality. I believed at one time (for a good while) that both of these positions were true. But after even more investigation of the Scriptures, God showed me that ECT was unbiblical (big time). It was like a light had opened my eyes to a whole new set of verses that I could not see before. This was God of course. A whole new set of verses expressed an exciting new truth and also confirmed an old truth.... "that God is good." But pride in wanting to see what I would like to see? Never. For even now, I am considering the possibility that maybe the richman was in the actual flames. But this is not the type of flames that cause the wicked to scream like we see in hell in popular movies and like in Christian videos. The richman was talking normally and he was not screaming. So do I have pride in wanting to stay as true to what the text says as possible? Surely not. I have went over these Scriptures in prayer over and over and keep asking God to open my eyes always to what is truly the truth here in regards to hell and the Lake of Fire (While comparing Scripture with Scripture).

Second, you say that you were going to show me how finite sins done here upon this Earth equates with sinning against God for all eternity. Yet, you just repeat yourself in fanciful words that this is the case and you did not provide any signficant real world example or verse that makes this so. You merely quote Scripture of how Jesus (GOD) declares Himself to be the "I AM."

But let's understand something here. GOD does not exist in all points in time through out eternity. Time travel movies and books have wrongfully influenced your thinking on that here. For example: If God exists in all points in time through out eternity than this means that GOD has not really rested or stopped from all His work of the six day creation on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2). If GOD exists in all points in time through out all eternity than that means Jesus did not really offer His sacrifice one time for all (Hebrews 10:12). So if GOD is not existing on an eternal level through out all points in time, then there is no such thing as sinning against GOD on an eternal level. Actually, a person would have to have a time travel machine in order to sin against GOD for all eternity. But seeing this is not the case, then one cannot do so. Also, you do not know how to explain the goodness or morality behind roasting people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed here on this Earth. No real example or moral principle that we are aware of can be used to defend such a wrong idea. So your defense is hollow. Sure, you can use 5 or so verses out of context to the rest of the Bible to prove your belief, but it would not be either Biblical or moral (or good). I believe the statement of Jesus (GOD) declaring Himself to be the "I AM" is a statement about how He always existed and how He will always continue to exist. It is not a statement about how exists in all points in time. "I AM" is a bold statement of declaration of how one exists in the here and now. GOD is the "I AM" throught out all time (But He is not existing in all points in time at this moment). GOD is the "I AM" right here and right now (Because it is a present tense declaration).


...