The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

mmksparbud

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What was Jesus trying to say with the story of the rich man and Lazarus?
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
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What was Jesus trying to say with the story of the rich man and Lazarus?
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is true. But this is one of things we can learn from the Story of Lazarus and the Richman. The other one is do not live a life like the Richman (obviously). Do not neglect the poor around you. For the parable of the Sheep and Goats Judgment says a similar message.

Another truth revealed to us by the Story of Lazarus and the Richman is a description of what hell or hades is like. For there is no indication that the Richman's experience after death is a fictious story in any way. In fact, this story would help to confirm other verses that talk about how a soul is conscious or awake after death (Including those who are in hell).

Jesus always spoke the truth and He did not lie by telling us fictious stories or half truths. Everything Jesus said was 100% true. If Jesus's words were only 90% true, we could not trust Him in what He says.

Jesus was full of grace and truth (John 1:14).

Jesus said to the Pharisees,

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, ..." (John 8:40).

Paul says this about the word of God.

"By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left," (2 Corinthians 6:7).



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Butch5

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This is not true. First, the story of Lazarus and the Richman is not called a parable.

Doesn't matter.

Second, it is a little odd that this is the only parable that is fictious when none of Jesus's other parables were fictious.

Who said this is the only parable that's not an actual event.

Three, the narrative of the Richman and Lazarus is an account of what it is like for a wicked man to die and go to hell or hades.

That interpretation contradicts Scripture. That's one way we know it's not an actual event. Which man was wicked? The parable doesn't say either man was wicked.


How so? Well, I have already provided a list of verses that shows that men are consciously awake or aware of things after death.

What you gave me was a list of passages that you "think" prove that the dead are alive. Not a single one of those passages says that the dead are alive after they die. The concept is self contradictory. Why do the Scriptures call them the dead if they are alive? You've been saying that Jesus wouldn't say things that weren't literal. Well, what about this? If the dead are really alive how does the word of God call them dead.

Concerning the passages you posted. The reasoning is circular. You believe that the dead are alive so when you read those passages they appear to support your belief. However, none of the passages actually teaches that the dead are alive. Thus, they don't actually support your claim. Additionally, your interpretation of those passages contradicts other passages of Scripture, such as David saying that the dead know nothing and that their thoughts have perished. These passages must also be reconciled with those that you posted in order to come to a true understanding of what the Scriptures teach on the subject.



The use of metaphors is determined by the context. I do not see any context supporting your claim in 1 Corinthians 15:43-44. For allegorizing the words "spiritual body" when you do not allegorize the words "natural body" is ripping the those words out of context -- IMO. Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. It doesn't make any sense to treat one as real and then allegorize the other. You are not providing any context of the passage here and you are just stating that this is so. Prove your case with the text that spiritual body is allegorical or metaphorical while the physical body is real.

Firstly, your interpretation of spiritual body is influenced by your belief that man is alive after death. Believing that man is some sort of spirit or soul alive after the death of the physical body could lead one to interpret spiritual body as a body that is not physical or is the body of a "spirit".

On the other hand if one is dead when they die, as Paul believed, what would Paul mean by the term "spiritual body"? Obviously, if Paul didn't believe that man was a spirit after he died then he wouldn't mean that a spiritual body is a non-physical body of a spirit.

So, you see, what one believes before coming to the passage can greatly influence the way one understands the passage.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:54 KJV)

I think it's pretty clear that Paul is speaking of the resurrection. Notice he keeps contrasting mortality with immortality and corruption with incorruption. The earthly man is corruptible, the one raised from the dead is incorruptible. When the corruptible has put on incorruption, then death will be defeated.
The contrast here is between two states of being, corruptible and incorruptible. One is before the resurrection and one is after. What Paul refers to as the "spiritual body" is the body that is resurrected. We have an example of what a resurrected body is.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet1.
41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?"
42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb1.
43 And He took it and ate in their presence. (Lk. 24:36-43 NKJ)

Here Jesus said a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. Yet He did have flesh and bones in His "spiritual body," His resurrected body. We can see clearly from this that Paul is not speaking of some kind of body that is not physical and exists as the body of a spirit.

Also, from the context of 1 Cor. 15 we see that Paul isn't even addressing the subject being alive when dead. He is addressing their present state and their state in the resurrection. He doesn't say anything about the time in between the two.



Also, angels have a spiritual body. This is why Paul says there is a spiritual body. For when Paul says we will put on immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:53, he is talking about how we will receive spiritual bodies like that of angels. It is why Scripture says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God," (John 1:12). For "sons of God" was a reference to angels in the Old Testament; And it is said elsewhere in the NT that we will be like angels (Matthew 22:30).
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You'll need to show where the angels have spiritual bodies. However, again it's all about context. The passage that says they'll be like the angels is referring to the giving in marriage. People won't marry in the resurrection.

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mk. 12:25 KJV)
 
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Doesn't matter.



Who said this is the only parable that's not an actual event.



That interpretation contradicts Scripture. That's one way we know it's not an actual event. Which man was wicked? The parable doesn't say either man was wicked.




What you gave me was a list of passages that you "think" prove that the dead are alive. Not a single one of those passages says that the dead are alive after they die. The concept is self contradictory. Why do the Scriptures call them the dead if they are alive? You've been saying that Jesus wouldn't say things that weren't literal. Well, what about this? If the dead are really alive how does the word of God call them dead.

Concerning the passages you posted. The reasoning is circular. You believe that the dead are alive so when you read those passages they appear to support your belief. However, none of the passages actually teaches that the dead are alive. Thus, they don't actually support your claim. Additionally, your interpretation of those passages contradicts other passages of Scripture, such as David saying that the dead know nothing and that their thoughts have perished. These passages must also be reconciled with those that you posted in order to come to a true understanding of what the Scriptures teach on the subject.





Firstly, your interpretation of spiritual body is influenced by your belief that man is alive after death. Believing that man is some sort of spirit or soul alive after the death of the physical body could lead one to interpret spiritual body as a body that is not physical or is the body of a "spirit".

On the other hand if one is dead when they die, as Paul believed, what would Paul mean by the term "spiritual body"? Obviously, if Paul didn't believe that man was a spirit after he died then he wouldn't mean that a spiritual body is a non-physical body of a spirit.

So, you see, what one believes before coming to the passage can greatly influence the way one understands the passage.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:54 KJV)

I think it's pretty clear that Paul is speaking of the resurrection. Notice he keeps contrasting mortality with immortality and corruption with incorruption. The earthly man is corruptible, the one raised from the dead is incorruptible. When the corruptible has put on incorruption, then death will be defeated.
The contrast here is between two states of being, corruptible and incorruptible. One is before the resurrection and one is after. What Paul refers to as the "spiritual body" is the body that is resurrected. We have an example of what a resurrected body is.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet1.
41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?"
42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb1.
43 And He took it and ate in their presence. (Lk. 24:36-43 NKJ)

Here Jesus said a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. Yet He did have flesh and bones in His "spiritual body," His resurrected body. We can see clearly from this that Paul is not speaking of some kind of body that is not physical and exists as the body of a spirit.

Also, from the context of 1 Cor. 15 we see that Paul isn't even addressing the subject being alive when dead. He is addressing their present state and their state in the resurrection. He doesn't say anything about the time in between the two.





You'll need to show where the angels have spiritual bodies. However, again it's all about context. The passage that says they'll be like the angels is referring to the giving in marriage. People won't marry in the resurrection.

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mk. 12:25 KJV)

Well, I am not really interested in debating the same truth back and forth if you do not get it after my explanations. If you are not willing to see what the text says plainly, I think it is time to move on, my friend.

May God bless you.


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Butch5

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Well, I am not really interested in debating the same truth back and forth if you do not get it after my explanations. If you are not willing to see what the text says plainly, I think it is time to move on, my friend.

May God bless you.


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It's more than "what the text plainly says". You're interpreting the text, everyone does. The Bible doesn't speak and say, this is what I mean. What a person believes influences how they understand the text. You're talking about "what the text plainly says" so let do that.

2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)

Here David says he'll praise the Lord while he is alive. We see that when a man dies, his thoughts perish that very day. That's what the text "plainly says." Given that how can the Rich Man be suffering in Hades if he has no thought. How can he be reasoning with Abraham? What possible need would he have for a body when he has no way to control it?
 
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It's more than "what the text plainly says". You're interpreting the text, everyone does. The Bible doesn't speak and say, this is what I mean. What a person believes influences how they understand the text. You're talking about "what the text plainly says" so let do that.

2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)

Here David says he'll praise the Lord while he is alive. We see that when a man dies, his thoughts perish that very day. That's what the text "plainly says." Given that how can the Rich Man be suffering in Hades if he has no thought. How can he be reasoning with Abraham? What possible need would he have for a body when he has no way to control it?

Which thoughts perish?
His thoughts in trusting in men (i.e. the son of man) and princes (See verse 3).

In other words, his thoughts upon the Earth perish. For a person's thoughts are concerned with living here upon the Earth which would not be the case in hell or hades because we know from other verses that say that souls can be consciously awake or aware of things after death.

For when men die who have put their trust in men will no longer have any thoughts in trusting in man anymore because they died and went to hell or hades. They will not think that way anymore as they did upon the Earth while in hell.

In other words, the verse does not say that a man's thinking process altogether will perish at death.


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Butch5

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Which thoughts perish?
His thoughts in trusting in men (i.e. the son of man) and princes (See verse 3).

In other words, his thoughts upon the Earth perish. For a person's thoughts are concerned with living here upon the Earth which would not be the case in hell or hades because we know from other verses that say that souls can be consciously awake or aware of things after death.

For when men die who have put their trust in men will no longer have any thoughts in trusting in man anymore because they died and went to hell or hades. They will not think that way anymore as they did upon the Earth while in hell.

In other words, the verse does not say that a man's thinking process altogether will perish at death.


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Wait! I thought you wanted to go by what the text "plainly says". Now you're adding a bunch of your own thoughts to what is written. The passage doesn't say, "thoughts upon the Earth perish". It simply says, "that very day his thoughts perish".

There are two big problems with your interpretation. Firstly, notice what David said,

2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

Why is it that David said he would praise the Lord while he lived? He didn't say he would praise the Lord when he was dead. Why not? Why is it only when he is alive?

The other problem is that your interpretation doesn't align with the text. David identifies the "real man" as "he". Notice what happens to "he".

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:4 KJV)

Notice the words his and he. The word, his, is defined as, belonging to or associated with a male person or animal. Notice it doesn't say, his, is a male, but rather is something associated with a male. Now look at the word, he. The definition of, he, is a male or a man. Now, look at what David said. The man's breath, his breath, goes forth. The man's thoughts, his thoughts, perish. But, what happens to the man? "He" returns to the dust. So, David defines the person, the man, as the one who returns to the dust. That means the man is dust, he's not a spirit, he's not a soul, he's dust. This is the very same thing we find Genesis where Moses records God's words to Adam.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God tells Adam, in the plain meaning of the text, "dust thou art." Man is dust. So, if man that returns to the earth, whose thoughts perish, how is the Rich Man communicating with Abraham?

The passages that you quoted also have to align with these passages or your interpretation is off.
 
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Wait! I thought you wanted to go by what the text "plainly says". Now you're adding a bunch of your own thoughts to what is written. The passage doesn't say, "thoughts upon the Earth perish". It simply says, "that very day his thoughts perish".

There are two big problems with your interpretation. Firstly, notice what David said,

2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

Why is it that David said he would praise the Lord while he lived? He didn't say he would praise the Lord when he was dead. Why not? Why is it only when he is alive?

The other problem is that your interpretation doesn't align with the text. David identifies the "real man" as "he". Notice what happens to "he".

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:4 KJV)

Notice the words his and he. The word, his, is defined as, belonging to or associated with a male person or animal. Notice it doesn't say, his, is a male, but rather is something associated with a male. Now look at the word, he. The definition of, he, is a male or a man. Now, look at what David said. The man's breath, his breath, goes forth. The man's thoughts, his thoughts, perish. But, what happens to the man? "He" returns to the dust. So, David defines the person, the man, as the one who returns to the dust. That means the man is dust, he's not a spirit, he's not a soul, he's dust. This is the very same thing we find Genesis where Moses records God's words to Adam.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God tells Adam, in the plain meaning of the text, "dust thou art." Man is dust. So, if man that returns to the earth, whose thoughts perish, how is the Rich Man communicating with Abraham?

The passages that you quoted also have to align with these passages or your interpretation is off.

There is no problem at all. It is as I said. Verse 3 is the context. The thoughts that perish are the thoughts mentioned in verse 3 (trusting in man and princes). But even if such a verse did not exist, Scripture has to be compared with Scripture. The Bible appears to contradict itself in many places. But we know there is no contradiction in God's Word. For there are many great apologetic resources by other Christians to explain these so called Bible contradictions. Your explanation on verses that talk about how souls who are conscious or awake must all be explained as being metaphorical when there is no clear indication that this is so. Verses about the dead no longer being able to do certain things is in reference to their doing things here in this life. It is the most logical way to explain such verses in light of other verses.

You start off with the presupposition that souls will not be conscious after death based off a few select verses.

I start off with the presupposition that souls will be conscious after death after a few select verses. I also believe souls will go through periods of sleep in the after life, which explains why we see verses suggesting that man is not aware of things after he dies.

The difference between our beliefs is that when I try to read verses that show us about how souls can be conscious or aware of things after death, I cannot read them in a metaphorical way that makes any sense and there is no indication in the text that they are clearly saying that they are metaphorical. It seems more like one is ignoring the text than trying to harmonize the whole of Scripture with your interpretation.


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There is no problem at all. It is as I said. Verse 3 is the context. The thoughts that perish are the thoughts mentioned in verse 3 (trusting in man and princes). But even if such a verse did not exist, Scripture has to be compared with Scripture. The Bible appears to contradict itself in many places. But we know there is no contradiction in God's Word. For there are many great apologetic resources by other Christians to explain these so called Bible contradictions. Your explanation on verses that talk about how souls who are conscious or awake must all be explained as being metaphorical when there is no clear indication that this is so. Verses about the dead no longer being able to do certain things is in reference to their doing things here in this life. It is the most logical way to explain such verses in light of other verses.

The problem is that you assume there is more than this life, when Scripture informs us that there is this life and the resurrection. The Scriptures tell us that the dead are dead. We can see from real life experiences that the dead are dead. Your claim that the dead are alive not only contradicts the Bible that says they are dead. It also contradicts logic. The definition of dead is without life. If they are alive they are not dead. It doesn't even make sense to say the dead are alive and mean it literally.

You start off with the presupposition that souls will not be conscious after death based off a few select verses.

I start off with the presupposition that souls will be conscious after death after a few select verses. I also believe souls will go through periods of sleep in the after life, which explains why we see verses suggesting that man is not aware of things after he dies.

No, I don't use a few select verses to draw my conclusion. I use a systematic study of the Scriptures to draw that conclusion. I start with what God said a man is. Gen 2:7 says that God created the man from the dust of the earth. That means that man is the dust of the earth. Then we find that God breathed a the breath or spirit of life into the man. There is the spirit and it is God's. Then we find that the man, after receiving the breath or spirit of life "BECAME" a living soul. This is pretty clear. A soul consists of the man and the breath or spirit of life. You need both parts to have a soul. When you take one away you no longer have a soul. Therefore a soul cannot live on after death. We see that the breath or spirit of life is something from God and it is His. When the man dies God's breath or spirit returns to Him. That leaves only the body which we are told returns to the dust. We have God's own confirmation of this when He told Adam, 'you are dust'. We find lots of confirmation of this in the Scriptures where we find that man has no thoughts after death, he cannot praise God after death, that he is no more after death.

One the other hand, you're required to take passages that can clearly be metaphorical and interpret them literally which causes you to have to contradict other passages of Scripture. I don't have that problem

The difference between our beliefs is that when I try to read verses that show us about how souls can be conscious or aware of things after death, I cannot read them in a metaphorical way that makes any sense and there is no indication in the text that they are clearly saying that they are metaphorical. It seems more like one is ignoring the text than trying to harmonize the whole of Scripture with your interpretation.

The indication is quite clear, the dead are dead. That's why they are called the dead. Another indication is Gen 2:7 which tells us what a soul is. Without the breath of life you don't have a soul and we know that at death the breath of life returns to God, thus there is no way a soul can live on.

If anyone is ignoring the text I think it's pretty clear it's not me since I gave an explicit example of where my understanding comes from and it's based one what the Scriptures teach that a man and a soul are.

Since you're insisting on the plain reading of the text and that what Jesus said is true. Jesus said,

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Jn. 11:14 KJV)

Jesus said, "Lazarus is dead". He didn't say, Lazarus' body is dead. He said, "Lazarus is dead."

So, was Lazarus dead?
 
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The problem is that you assume there is more than this life, when Scripture informs us that there is this life and the resurrection. The Scriptures tell us that the dead are dead. We can see from real life experiences that the dead are dead. Your claim that the dead are alive not only contradicts the Bible that says they are dead. It also contradicts logic. The definition of dead is without life. If they are alive they are not dead. It doesn't even make sense to say the dead are alive and mean it literally.



No, I don't use a few select verses to draw my conclusion. I use a systematic study of the Scriptures to draw that conclusion. I start with what God said a man is. Gen 2:7 says that God created the man from the dust of the earth. That means that man is the dust of the earth. Then we find that God breathed a the breath or spirit of life into the man. There is the spirit and it is God's. Then we find that the man, after receiving the breath or spirit of life "BECAME" a living soul. This is pretty clear. A soul consists of the man and the breath or spirit of life. You need both parts to have a soul. When you take one away you no longer have a soul. Therefore a soul cannot live on after death. We see that the breath or spirit of life is something from God and it is His. When the man dies God's breath or spirit returns to Him. That leaves only the body which we are told returns to the dust. We have God's own confirmation of this when He told Adam, 'you are dust'. We find lots of confirmation of this in the Scriptures where we find that man has no thoughts after death, he cannot praise God after death, that he is no more after death.

One the other hand, you're required to take passages that can clearly be metaphorical and interpret them literally which causes you to have to contradict other passages of Scripture. I don't have that problem



The indication is quite clear, the dead are dead. That's why they are called the dead. Another indication is Gen 2:7 which tells us what a soul is. Without the breath of life you don't have a soul and we know that at death the breath of life returns to God, thus there is no way a soul can live on.

If anyone is ignoring the text I think it's pretty clear it's not me since I gave an explicit example of where my understanding comes from and it's based one what the Scriptures teach that a man and a soul are.

Since you're insisting on the plain reading of the text and that what Jesus said is true. Jesus said,

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Jn. 11:14 KJV)

Jesus said, "Lazarus is dead". He didn't say, Lazarus' body is dead. He said, "Lazarus is dead."

So, was Lazarus dead?

Scripture says God has a soul.
  • Leviticus 26:11
    And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
  • Leviticus 26:30
    And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
  • Isaiah 42:1
    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Zechariah 11:8
    Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
  • Matthew 12:18
    Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Hebrews 10:38
    Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

So this refutes the idea that souls cannot be in existence after death.
Revelation 6:9 actually talks about saints who were slain for the Word of God who cry out to God under the altar. This is obviously dead saints here because they were slain for the Word of God. Verses like these have to go either be ignored or twisted in some way beyond what they say at face value with a normal reading of Scripture.


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Butch5

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Scripture says God has a soul.
  • Leviticus 26:11
    And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
  • Leviticus 26:30
    And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
  • Isaiah 42:1
    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Zechariah 11:8
    Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
  • Matthew 12:18
    Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Hebrews 10:38
    Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

So this refutes the idea that souls cannot be in existence after death.
Revelation 6:9 actually talks about saints who were slain for the Word of God who cry out to God under the altar. This is obviously dead saints here because they were slain for the Word of God. Verses like these have to go either be ignored or twisted in some way beyond what they say at face value with a normal reading of Scripture.


...

It doesn't refute anything. It just shows that you reject one passage of Scripture in order to hold your view on another. Firstly, you've not even defined what a soul is. That God speaks of His soul doesn't mean that Gen 2:7 is wrong. Rather, it's more likely that your interpretation of "soul" is what's wrong. However, you want to define soul, you have to either reconcile it with Gen 2:7 or reject it.

If you study how the word soul is used throughout the Bible you'll see that the verses you posted in no way disagree with what I've said. The reason you believe they disagree is because you've defined soul according to your own understanding of the word and not the Scriptural understanding of the word.

You didn't answer my question. Jesus said, "Lazarus is dead". He didn't say, Lazarus' body is dead. He said, "Lazarus is dead." What Lazarus dead?
 
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It doesn't refute anything. It just shows that you reject one passage of Scripture in order to hold your view on another. Firstly, you've not even defined what a soul is. That God speaks of His soul doesn't mean that Gen 2:7 is wrong. Rather, it's more likely that your interpretation of "soul" is what's wrong. However, you want to define soul, you have to either reconcile it with Gen 2:7 or reject it.

If you study how the word soul is used throughout the Bible you'll see that the verses you posted in no way disagree with what I've said. The reason you believe they disagree is because you've defined soul according to your own understanding of the word and not the Scriptural understanding of the word.

You didn't answer my question. Jesus said, "Lazarus is dead". He didn't say, Lazarus' body is dead. He said, "Lazarus is dead." What Lazarus dead?

I believe Genesis 2:7 just fine. It is saying it is a living soul (i.e. a soul that has a living physical body) vs. God's soul that does not have a physical living body. God is spirit. But yet, God has a soul. The Bible says so. This is what you must ignore. Also, Revelation 6:9 plainly says there are souls who were slain for the Word of God and who were crying out to God. It does not say they cried out to God before they were slain. It simply says these are souls who were slain for the Word of God and then they were still doing something like crying out to God.

As for the Lazarus (of whom Jesus later resurrected):
Yes, Jesus was correct when He said that Lazarus was dead and that He was asleep.
I believe Lazarus's physical body was dead and yet his soul and spirit body were sleeping before having crossed over into the Abraham's bosom or Paradise. Also, sleep is compared to death elsewhere in the OT Scriptures, as well. But this is because it appears like the body is sleeping when a person dies. The physical relates to the spiritual. For example: In John 3, Jesus relates our physical birth with being born again spiritually by saying we must be "born again."

...
 
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God has never died.

Hmmm, yes and no.

GOD the Son (Second person of the Godhead) physical human body (JESUS) had died.

But GOD's soul and spirit cannot die. It is eternal.
But the physical body that belonged to the Second Person of the Trinity did die physically.

Besides, Scripture does say GOD has a soul.
  • Leviticus 26:11
    And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
  • Leviticus 26:30
    And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
  • Isaiah 42:1
    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Zechariah 11:8
    Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
  • Matthew 12:18
    Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Hebrews 10:38
    Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

...
 
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mmksparbud

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Hmmm, yes and no.

GOD the Son (Second person of the Godhead) physical human body (JESUS) had died.

But GOD's soul and spirit cannot die. It is eternal.
But the physical body that belonged to the Second Person of the Trinity did die physically.

Besides, Scripture does say GOD has a soul.
  • Leviticus 26:11
    And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
  • Leviticus 26:30
    And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
  • Isaiah 42:1
    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Zechariah 11:8
    Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
  • Matthew 12:18
    Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
  • Hebrews 10:38
    Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

...

Bottom line---God has never died.
 
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I believe Genesis 2:7 just fine. It is saying it is a living soul (i.e. a soul that has a living physical body)

Well, there you go. It's talking about a living soul that has a physical body. Every single human being has a physical body. Therefore no human soul can live on after death without a body.

vs. God's soul that does not have a physical living body. God is spirit. But yet, God has a soul.

As I said, if you study the word soul and how it's used in the Scriptures you'll see that it aligns with what I said. One of the reasons there is such confusion about this word is because translators translate is too many different ways. The word is used in the Scripture both concretely of a living being, and Abstractly of life. It's also used metaphorically in Scripture. An understanding of the different ways the word is used will clear up the confusion rather quickly.

The Bible says so. This is what you must ignore. Also, Revelation 6:9 plainly says there are souls who were slain for the Word of God and who were crying out to God. It does not say they cried out to God before they were slain. It simply says these are souls who were slain for the Word of God and then they were still doing something like crying out to God.

And, Revelation is a book of symbolism. It also represents Jesus as a slain lamb having seven eyes. When people misunderstand these metaphors they miss the message and wonder off into error. The question is why are these souls under the alter? If we understand why they are under the alter then we will understand the metaphor. What was the alter used for? Day in and day out the sacrifices were carried out. The animals were sacrificed and the Martyrs had sacrificed their lives. Excess blood was poured out at the base of the alter. This blood would seep into the ground beneath the alter. What significance is there that the blood of martyrs is seen beneath the alter?

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word translated "life" in this verse is the Greek word for soul. The soul is in the blood. So what we see is the souls, in the blood, of the martyrs under the alter crying out. Where else do we see this idea?

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.1
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; (Gen. 4:9-11 KJV)

We see it in the very first martyrdom. It's a reference to those who lives have been lost while honoring God.

Notice that those in Rev 6 are dead. It says they had been killed. This tells us that the passage of them speaking is figurative. Dead people can't speak. Notice also that they were given white robes. If they have no body how would they wear robes?


As for the Lazarus (of whom Jesus later resurrected):
Yes, Jesus was correct when He said that Lazarus was dead and that He was asleep.
I believe Lazarus's physical body was dead and yet his soul and spirit body were sleeping before having crossed over into the Abraham's bosom or Paradise. Also, sleep is compared to death elsewhere in the OT Scriptures, as well. But this is because it appears like the body is sleeping when a person dies. The physical relates to the spiritual. For example: In John 3, Jesus relates our physical birth with being born again spiritually by saying we must be "born again."

...

Jesus corrected the disciples misunderstanding of His saying that Lazarus was asleep. He explained that Lazarus wasn't asleep, he was dead. The point is that Jesus didn't say anything about Lazarus' body. He said Lazarus was dead. Jesus isn't breaking him up into parts, he denotes the whole being.

There is no soul or spirit body when the man dies. That's the point. There is nothing in Scripture about a man having a spirit body. The only body man has is the one he's born with. If he went into another body that would be re-incarnation. The Scriptures nowhere support such and idea.
 
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Well, there you go. It's talking about a living soul that has a physical body. Every single human being has a physical body. Therefore no human soul can live on after death without a body.



As I said, if you study the word soul and how it's used in the Scriptures you'll see that it aligns with what I said. One of the reasons there is such confusion about this word is because translators translate is too many different ways. The word is used in the Scripture both concretely of a living being, and Abstractly of life. It's also used metaphorically in Scripture. An understanding of the different ways the word is used will clear up the confusion rather quickly.



And, Revelation is a book of symbolism. It also represents Jesus as a slain lamb having seven eyes. When people misunderstand these metaphors they miss the message and wonder off into error. The question is why are these souls under the alter? If we understand why they are under the alter then we will understand the metaphor. What was the alter used for? Day in and day out the sacrifices were carried out. The animals were sacrificed and the Martyrs had sacrificed their lives. Excess blood was poured out at the base of the alter. This blood would seep into the ground beneath the alter. What significance is there that the blood of martyrs is seen beneath the alter?

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word translated "life" in this verse is the Greek word for soul. The soul is in the blood. So what we see is the souls, in the blood, of the martyrs under the alter crying out. Where else do we see this idea?

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.1
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; (Gen. 4:9-11 KJV)

We see it in the very first martyrdom. It's a reference to those who lives have been lost while honoring God.

Notice that those in Rev 6 are dead. It says they had been killed. This tells us that the passage of them speaking is figurative. Dead people can't speak. Notice also that they were given white robes. If they have no body how would they wear robes?




Jesus corrected the disciples misunderstanding of His saying that Lazarus was asleep. He explained that Lazarus wasn't asleep, he was dead. The point is that Jesus didn't say anything about Lazarus' body. He said Lazarus was dead. Jesus isn't breaking him up into parts, he denotes the whole being.

There is no soul or spirit body when the man dies. That's the point. There is nothing in Scripture about a man having a spirit body. The only body man has is the one he's born with. If he went into another body that would be re-incarnation. The Scriptures nowhere support such and idea.

There is nothing more left to say on this particular point. I stand by what I have said with Scripture. The Bible says God has a soul. Revelation 6:9 gives us no indication that it is symbolic or allegorical. It is not some kind of outlandish kind of thing to believe in real life like a Lamb that is slain with many eyes upon it. Genesis 2:7 simply says Adam became a living soul (Which would be in harmony to departed souls of the dead like the Richman or a soul like God's soul).


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parousia70

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Interesting thread.

There is nothing in Scripture about a man having a spirit body. The only body man has is the one he's born with. If he went into another body that would be re-incarnation. The Scriptures nowhere support such and idea.

Wait... didn't you just quote such a supporting scripture above?

"44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Perhaps Spirit Body and Spiritual Body are somehow different in your view?
 
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Yes, humans have spiritual bodies. Just like angels have spiritual bodies. It's why Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. It's why we are to keep our soul, spirit, and body blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Three things we are to keep blameless.

Also, Paul says, "And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )" (2 Corinthians 12:3).


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