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Featured The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Where does Paul say he was only talking about this life?
    I appears that some of what you say is based on what you "believe" rather than what scripture says.
    The problem with the above translations is that the Greek word "γάρ/gar" i.e. "for" does not occur in Rev 10:20. Here is the phrase in Greek with each word translated "εις [unto] τους [the] αιωνας [eons] των [of the] αιωνων [eons]." εις [unto] cannot be legitimately be translated "for" or "because." And while aion/aionios sometimes refer to things which are not eternal, here are twenty one [21] verses where αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described with other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 20:1, Romans 26:10.
    [1] 1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.​
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]​
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.​
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than th earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed then it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
    [4]Hebrews 7:24
    (24) But this man, because he continueth ever.[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever, .[αἰών/aion] ​
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “incorruptible.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
    [6]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]​
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality”. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [7]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]​
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap life aionios, i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
    [8]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, it is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [9]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with not “snatch them out of my hand” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “not ‘snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [10]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]​
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [12]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
    [13]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]​
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.
    [14]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [15]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life. ​
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [17]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
    [19]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
    [20]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [21]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” “Aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” and “aionios,” synonymously or interchangeably..
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans 26:10 LOL

    Your theory that aion & aionios are always defined as 'eternal' everywhere in the Scriptures and never defined as finite duration does not have the support of a single lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary. You've been unable to give one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition.


    This appears to contradict what you said above. And why repeat the word αἰώνιος twice?


    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

    The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".
    Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are
    doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

    Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

    1."God exists today"
    2. Today "is finite"
    3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
    4. God is also immortal.
    5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
    6. Both are true at the same time.

    Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

    Thus your argument is refuted.



    Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

    Thesaurus results for MOMENT
    http://en.konjugator.com/moment/
    104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
    http://en.konjugator.com/aeon/

    Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
    An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
    And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

    http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php




    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary,
    so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.



    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-24.htm

    "hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

    "This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

    Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration.
    After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).




    "The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/1-23.htm

    As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

    http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-23.htm

    and also this:

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    Index of /interlinear/1_peter



    Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing. Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now
    and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

    Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
    who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
    Concordant Literal Translation
    Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
    Rotherham's Emphasized Version
    Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
    Emphatic Diaglott NT
    the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
    Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
    ...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AKR1767.0001.001/686?rgn=main;view=image
    http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti6.pdf

    Re Greek scholar Deissman:

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the
    Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third
    century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian
    (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than
    endless time?" "

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

    The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf



    The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

    Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

    Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.



    John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

    In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

    And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)
    and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

    For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon
    of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who
    were ever in Adam (v.22).



    Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".


    Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
    http://studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
    http://studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

    Darby Bible Translation
    and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

    This is what it actually literally says:

    Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

    It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

    Here is the full verse with context:

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
    Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

    Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25).
    So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase
    "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.




    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

    Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).



    And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

    Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon".

    Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

    Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't
    say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus
    is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).


    For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

    Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

    Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.


    Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23)
    to those who believe. Eventually all will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same chapter).




    None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

    "The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=oD... everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

    https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf
     
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  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

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    I found your post educational, informative and interesting. Thanks!

    One question tho...


    I don't find anywhere in Isaiah 65 that teaches this pertains to the so called Milennium. In Fact, I find ESPLICIT teaching in that passage that it pertaines to the New Heavens and Earth Epoch (Isaiah 65:17) and not to any time BEFORE.

    How do you reconcile this?
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Like there are two Ahaziahs, two Jehorams, two different kinds of sons of God, two lions, two vines, there are two "New Heavens and New Earth's." One is the Millennium and the other is the "Final New Heaven and New Earth" mentioned in Revelation 21. Here is part of a commentary by Pastor Warren W. Wiersbe.

    [​IMG]

    Source:
    Wiersbe Bible Commentary (Volume 1: Old Testament).
    https://www.amazon.com/Wiersbe-Bible-Commentary-Vol-Commentaries/dp/0781445418/
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you. Isa.65:20 speaks of people dying. In the new earth there will be no more dying (Rv.21:4). So i place Isa.65:20 in the millennial age eon & before the new earth age eon.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    And these Scriptures would be???
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Repeating the same arguments over and over and over after they have been refuted does not make them valid.
    Your first specious argument misrepresents my position. As I have said several times there is a difference between "defining"/"describing" a word and simply using a word to "refer" to something. In the 21 verses which I posted above αἰών and αἰώνιος are described/defined by being paired with words like unchangeable, immortal, incorruptible and verses such as Rom 1:20 and Rom 16:26 which I have posted at least 6 times and which you have never addressed.

    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” All scholars agree that “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” and “aionios” interchangeably or synonymously. Philo a Greek philosopher who was a contemporary of Paul also used “aidios” and “aionios” interchangeably or synonymously.
    Philo a Greek philosopher who was contemporary of Paul also used "aidios" and "aionios" interchangeably/synonymously.
    (use)The term “aiönic name” belongs to the Biblical quotation of Exod.3: 15. (meaning) When Philo says here that "the everlasting (to aiodion) is predicated of the imperishable”, we infer that “the everlasting [sc. Name]”. name|” is his paraphrase of “the aiönic name”. This passage shows that the adjective aionios for Philo is equivalent to ‘everlasting” (aidios), as well as to ‘imperishable” and “immortal”. (context) Just as in text [15], God's “aiönic name” is explained here as referring to never-ending gifts for the human soul. P. 231
    Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo, Heleen M. Keizer, 2010​


     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Man, in his fallen state is said to be Dead.

    Mat. 8:22
    But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

    Even so we live and die, we are Body, Soul, and Spirit.

    Our Spirit is Spiritually dead (through the fall) until our Salvation, when we are Born Again of the Spirit unto newness of life.

    Rom. 6:4
    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    This means we are given LIFE in Christ.

    Therefore the Spirit of a man who has never attained Salvation. does not die, it is already dead in the Spiritual sense, because the Spirit never Dies, it returns to God from whence it came.

    It is therefore the Spirit of a man which is first cast into Hell, and then Cast in the Lake of Fire, the Spirit cannot be destroyed, therefore it is tormented For ever and ever....... Eternal Spiritual Death.

    John 6:53
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    While the Spirit which has been Born Again unto Newness of life in Christ will live with God in His Glory For Ever.

    Rom. 8:9
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    Rom. 8:10
    And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    John 6:51
    I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where does Paul say that or use the word "interchangeably"? Who should believe you, since evidently your knowledge of Greek is nil or next to non existent:

    Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

    "This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

    "Yes, there are some translators who render the phrase "king eternal" but that's not because of the grammar. That's because they think "of the ages" is tantamount to "eternal." "

    "The following versions have "to the king of the ages":
    Darby, Diaglot, Douay, EMTV, ESV, LEB, Philips, Rotherham, RSV, Wey, and YLT."

    "Does your correspondent think that none of the translators of these versions know Greek?"

    "Also in all 26 occurrences of "king of" in the New Testament NOT ONE of them have "king" in the genitive case. I checked it out."

    One of the two of you has no clue about the Greek or what he is talking about. I'm betting it's you.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since i've addressed it in reply to you several times in the past few days, i have to wonder if you even read the posts that respond to you. For example, back on Monday, Romans 1 and 16 was addressed here:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I skim your posts, if I see the same ol' lame ol' copy/pastes from tents-r-us I skip them.
    I addressed your specious response to Rom 1:20 and Rom 16:26 in this post.
    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

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    So then, should we be looking for a 2nd virgin birth?

    A second crucifixion?

    Was Calvary a mere "type" of some future, greater sacrifice yet to be accomplished?
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

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    Revelation 21:4
    4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

    Couple things i see right off the bat.

    Is not this the present reality for those in Christ?

    John 11:26
    26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    Do you?
    I do!

    Next, as far as tears go, how about tears of Joy? Will we not be allowed to cry tears of Joy in the New H & E?

    Or again, is this a present reality for those in Christ that God, right now, wipes away our tears as we shed them?

    Lastly, How could Isaiah have gotten it so wrong then?
     
  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    No. But the Bible does have homonyms in it elsewhere.
    It's okay. If you do not accept that there are two "New Heavens and New Earth", that is your choice. But the text makes more sense in Isaiah by understanding it to be talking about the Millennium and not the Final New Heaven and New Earth.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Said the person who probably could not parse a Greek verb if his life depended on it. Paul does not have to take out a full page ad and announce when he is using two words interchangeably. Whenever a writer uses two different words to refer to the same characteristic of the same subject, the words are interchangeable, without any public announcement saying so. An example of that is Rom 1:20 and Rom 16:26. In these two verses Paul refers to God as "aionios" and "aidios." Both verses speak to the length of God's existence.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [αιδιος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιον/aionion] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    I don't happen to have the book ""A Guy who knows Some Greek" Maybe you can tell me which page and paragraph these comments are on so I can check it for myself.
    No, but I do know that translators have been known to "translate" scriptures in a way which supports their biases.
    I think I have quoted accredited grammars more than once. Have you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  16. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    First you would have to understand just what the millennium actually
    is and who is included in it.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A 6 year old can quote a grammar or entire list of them. That doesn't mean he understands a single word of it.

    Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

    "This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

     
  18. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Great thread.

    One question come to mind here.
    It might appear to someone that the truth about this lies in the micro-definitions of words in other languages. But tell me, how many people in the world would care to invest the time required to study such variances in language to try and decipher its meanings? A few of us might try, like on this website and I am glad to glean from it.
    But consider the vastness of the population of the world. In the big picture, practically nobody would bother with it.
    If it takes a PHD and an attitude of total life commitment to learn the truth, then there is little hope for anyone to know the truth.
    Do you think God makes the truth nearly impossible to discover on purpose?
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This convinces me that I have no reasonable expectation of ever receiving a cogent, meaningful response from you.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nope God does not make the truth nearly impossible to discover on purpose. The problem I see is there are so many heterodox religious groups around e.g. JW, LDS, UU, OP, UPCI, INC, WWCG etc. all trying to pilfer sheep from the orthodox churches all claiming that the church is wrong, has been wrong for umpteen years and only they have the truth and are going to tell us all what the Bible "really" says. One of them actually has a book with the title, "What The Bible Really Teaches." According to them the teachings of mainline denominations are wrong because e.g. "'eternal' doesn't really mean eternal." "'Punishment' doesn't really mean punishment." "There is no 'hell.'" etc. There should be someone knowledgeable on the front lines to counter their false claims. Or we could just do nothing and let the sheep be deceived.
     
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