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Featured The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily Jesus did say this.

    John 10:27
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    John 10:5
    And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

    Mat. 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Those who can be deceived are not His sheep, for it is not possible to deceive them.
     
  2. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't and it cannot take a PHD, because it isn't by mans wisdom, that he can come to the truth.

    1Co.2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    A person cannot come to the knowledge of the truth but by God, it is a gift, it is totally impossible to discover on purpose.

    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Eph. 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    The commitment only comes into play after he has received the truth. then he is able to plum the depths of that truth, which takes a lifetime.

    The truth resides right in front of us, all the days of our lives, until in the timing of God, we are drawn by his Holy Spirit unto a belief in Jesus through His Grace.....Hidden in plain sight.

    John 10:1
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think the workings of God with man are complicated & yet quite simple.

    God desires we walk in the light we've been given.

    Why should we stress about things that are out of our control?
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If that is supposed to be an argument in support of what follows, i.e. your theory/interpretation re Romans 1:20 & 16:26, that is circular reasoning...it assumes what it needs to prove & can't.

    Again, circular reasoning. Assuming what it needs to prove but can't. You're reading your opinion into the texts and ignoring context completely. The word or idea of how long God has existed from eternity past to eternity future is no part of the context of Romans 16, nor implied there anywhere. Instead it is talking about a finite time long ago, a "mystery hidden for long ages past" (v.25), not eternity past or eternity future. The same word, aionios, is used twice & applied to finite ages past & to God Who was God during those ages. That's a more probable understanding of the passage, if context means anything to you at all.

    Moreover aion/ios is equivalent to olam. Yet when Scripture says God is from olam to olam (Psa.90:2; 103:17), the first olam cannot be eternal or endless. For the olam/aions had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). This proves that aion/ios in reference to God need not necessarily mean eternal, e.g. as in Romans 16:25-26. Even your favorite translation, JPS, translates olam as "of old" [not "eternal"] when applied to God's goings (Hab.3:6).

    The argument is aionios & aidios both refer to God. And since aidios means eternal, so must aionios. That's silly. If that were true then dozens of other Greek terms applied to God also mean eternal, such as the Greek words for "King", "Lord", etc. That is ridiculous.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)

    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)

    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    Those verses show that eons (ages) & times eonian had a beginning. They can't be eternal in the past. Can they be eternal in the future, according to Scripture?

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26). If so, then arguably that which is eonian must end as well.

    Here in post #'s 130 & 131 are 12 arguments that the phrase "ages of the ages" is finite in Scripture, including some re all ages (eons) ending:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)



    Re Greek scholar Deissman:

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    Chapter Nine

    The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

    Similarly we have the words of Greek scholar & Early Church Father, Origen.

    Here is Origen's commentary on John where in chapter 13:

    13:19 "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    More examples showing aion & aionios, often deceptively mistranslated as 'eternal', as being used of finite duration, could be multiplied many times (as in the urls below). Here is another example of aionios used of finite duration, from early Church Father, Chrysostom:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    Aeon - Wikipedia

    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

    The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you know so much about the Greek, why haven't we heard a peep out of you regarding this:

    Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

    "This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

    Have you ever had even one lesson in Koine Greek?
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Entire repititious copy/pasted post ignored because of this false accusation. You quite evidently do not know what constitutes a circular argument.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Sorry amigo I can't find the reference "A Guy Who Knows Some Greek". Can you tell me which page(s) and paragraph(s) your quote can be verified?
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (A.) That's debatable. For example, both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position. Moreover many more would accept universalism if they weren't entirely ignorant of its positions, or were fully informed of the view. BTW, many others have rejected endless torments in favor of endless annihilation.

    (B.) It may have been true through the dark & middle ages when few people had bibles of their own & wouldn't have been able to read them if they did & to speak otherwise would have meant punishment or death. Not a point that is in favor of anti-universalism.

    (C.) In the early church, when they could read the Scriptures in their original languages, rather than English language KJV pro Endless Infernalism club mistranslated clones, there were, at times at least, many (or perhaps a majority) who rejected endless punishment:

    (1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

    "It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

    The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

    (2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

    "...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

    (Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

    If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

    (3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).


    (4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

    Jerome says:

    "I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

    Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

    "This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

    "The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

    "Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

    " "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nonsense. "King""lord" or any other irrelevant words you want to argue about relate to God in the same way "aidios" and "aionios" do. Nothing you have said or can say disproves my argument that Paul in Romans 1:20 and Romans 16:26 uses "aionios" as equivalent to "aidios" since both words relate to God in exactly the same way.
    Irrelevant. None of these verses, or any other verses you choose to quote, disproves my argument about Rom 120 and Rom 16:26
    Deissman's discussion of the lead tablet proves absolutely nothing about Rom 1:20 and 16:26.
    Selective out-of-context quote from Origen already addressed in other posts. Another Origen quote from the same source. Where Origen defines "aion" as "never perishes,""remains,""not taken away,""[not] consumed," and "[does not] perish."
    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
     
  10. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Debatable yes. But successfully no IMO.
    That's mighty white of them.

    I don't need their permission to "hope" for universalism. I would think that every compassionate Christian would hope for such whether they were given "permission" by some religious organization or not.

    The simple fact is that a straight forward reading of the scriptures, without a prior agenda, leads to the belief that all will not be saved - as much as we all wish they would be.

    Good luck with your desires concerning universal salvation. I sincerely hope that you're right and I'm wrong.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Many people think there are some who are already locked into a destiny of endless punishment, so a hope for universalism is ruled out in their theology.

    Early Church Father universalists whose mother tongue allowed them, unlike you, to read the Scriptures in their original languages, didn't see things that way. While many who can only read English translations (not the Scriptures themselves) think they know better. How does your view stand when reading a literal translation like YLT or the CLV instead of, say, a KJV?

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    The Church Fathers on Universalism
    Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
    Chapter Five
    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Disproved as follows:

    The word or idea of how long God has existed from eternity past to eternity future is no part of the context of Romans 16, nor implied there anywhere. Instead it is talking about a finite time long ago, a "mystery hidden for long ages past" (v.25), not eternity past or eternity future. The same word, aionios, is used twice & applied to finite ages past & to God Who was God during those ages. That's a more probable understanding of the passage, if context means anything to you at all.

    Moreover aion/ios is equivalent to olam. Yet when Scripture says God is from olam to olam (Psa.90:2; 103:17), the first olam cannot be eternal or endless. For the olam/aions had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). This proves that aion/ios in reference to God need not necessarily mean eternal, e.g. as in Romans 16:25-26. Even your favorite translation, JPS, translates olam as "of old" [not "eternal"] when applied to God's goings (Hab.3:6).

    The argument is aionios & aidios both refer to God. And since aidios means eternal, so must aionios. That's silly. If that were true then dozens of other Greek terms applied to God also mean eternal, such as the Greek words for "King", "Lord", etc. That is ridiculous.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)

    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)

    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    Those verses show that eons (ages) & times eonian had a beginning. They can't be eternal in the past. Can they be eternal in the future, according to Scripture?

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26). If so, then arguably that which is eonian must end as well.

    Here in post #'s 130 & 131 are 12 arguments that the phrase "ages of the ages" is finite in Scripture, including some re all ages (eons) ending:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)
     
  13. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Those commentators were, like you apparently, unaware of the dual disposition of the Father's judgement in the ages to come concerning His Son and decidedly Old Testament in their thinking.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Does not address my argument in any way, shape or form.
    None of this really addresses my argument. It matters not how many verses you quote where aion[ios] refers to something which is not eternal or verses which mention aion[ios] beginning or ending. None of that disproves that Paul used both aidios and aionios to refer to God. Here it is again.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; [θειότης/theiotes] so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    All scholars agree that aidios means eternal, everlasting, forever etc.
    .....How do we account for writers saying aion beginning/ending etc? Can a man literally gain the "whole world?" Did the "whole world" literally follow Jesus? Did the "whole world" literally hate the disciples? Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally spoken of throughout the "whole world?" Is the tongue literally a "world of iniquity?" Does the "whole world" literally lie in wickedness? What is it called when a word is used that way? In Greek it is written υπερβολη.

    Luke 9:25
    (25) For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
    John 12:19
    (19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
    John 15:19
    (19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
    Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    James 3:6
    (6) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
    1 John 5:19
    (19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What commentators? Care to elaborate?

    Early Church Father universalists whose mother tongue allowed them, unlike you, to read the Scriptures in their original languages, didn't see things that way. While many who can only read English translations (not the Scriptures themselves) think they know better. How does your view stand when reading a literal translation like YLT or the CLV instead of, say, a KJV?

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one is even trying to disprove that!

    Nothing i said was even addressing that. If that's what you think, you clearly didn't understand the point of what i posted.

    Your statement obviously proves nothing & cannot even be considered an argument.

    Scripture speaks of the "day of God" & "day of the Lord". Does that prove the word "day" means 'eternal'?



    I'd say it does & so would any objective reader.

    You haven't dealt with the points i've made.

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
    Aeon - Wikipedia
    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
    The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

    Chapter Five
    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This relates to your view that when Jesus speaks of the "end of the age" that He didn't mean that literally, but it was hyperbole. But you have looked and haven't found a single scholar, lexicon or commentator in the past 2000 years who agrees with you. Instead it is agreed that "age" in "end of the age" defines "age" as a finite use of the word "age", which is aion in the Greek. So it's Der Alter vs everyone. I'm sure you know which side i side with.

    Scripture, lexicons, scholars & commentators oppose your view that aion, aionios (olam & ad) are defined as eternal & never defined as a duration that is finite, such as an age, epoch, millennium, eon, era, etc.:

    "Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

    ¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

    ¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

    ¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

    ¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

    ¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

    ¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

    ¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

    ¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

    ¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

    ¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

    ¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

    ¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
    (1Co. 10:11)

    ¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

    ¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

    ¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

    ¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

    ¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

    ¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

    ¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

    ¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

    ¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

    ¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

    ¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

    ¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

    How can we say…

    ¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

    ¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

    ¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

    ¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  18. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    You just mentioned them. I.e. the "early Church Father universalists.

    They were commentators on what they saw in the scriptures just as you and I are.

    Regardless of my in ability to read the scriptures in the original Hebrew and Greek - I have access to the opinion of those who can do so. Most of them are not of the universalist persuasion.

    I also have access to the more literal translations you refer to such as the YLT. I do not use a KJV. Never have.

    Looking through those more literal translations I agree with those who have overwhelmingly endorsed eternal punishment for sins rather than the universalism you hold to.
    I note your scripture below and I do not see universalism necessarily taught there even if taken just as it is. Most certainly I don't when that passage is read along side those many passages which teach against universalism. Certainly one can cherry pick an O.T. passage such as you cite and build a doctrine on it. But that's no way to run a systematic theology.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As i see it the version quoted from Lamentations 3 clearly opposes endless punishment. So it is in contradiction to what the same version says in Mt.25. Since Scripture doesn't contradict, there is something wrong there, e.g. with the translation.

    I don't see a single Scripture that opposes Biblical universalism.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That scholars have a different interpretation than I do does not prove that I am wrong. That is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    More logical fallacy. I have not found any occurrence of aion(ios) where the word is "defined." That either word refers to something which is obviously not eternal is not defining or describing the words. See my examples of "world," above. In those vss. "kosmos"/world refers to something other than the entire earth but none of the vss. actually define "kosmos." Here are some examples where aion(ios) are defined by association with other words such as "permanent" and "unchangeable."

    NIV Heb 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.” And FYI your previous argument about unchangeable has been refuted from the lexicon
    John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, it is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    Irrelevant consider the NT uses of "kosmos." Did any of those vss. quoted above make any sense if we consider "kosmos"/world meant the entire earth?
     
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