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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Jason, read this again if you haven't already. Pray about, as Christians steel sharpens steel, but we put all our trust in the Lord.
     
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid that anyone who believes rom 6:14 refers to what Jason terms: old law, and not the moral law/ TC simply cannot grasp fundamental spiritual truth. It is tragic. Many can only reel off the letter of scripture pat without being able to discern spiritual truth contained within the letter.
    For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

    The above cannot possibly refer to law apart from the moral law. For non moral law could be faultlessly obeyed living under the law. You wouldn't have to stop living under the law in order for sin not to be your master concerning law you could faultlessly obey whilst being under it.
    Ist century lady, do you truly in your heart care about Jason? If you do, shouldn't you try and help him here?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The only law there was a problem obeying was the moral law. That is why the letter kills. Paul stated that in regards to the law on stone/ moral law/TC.
    Does spiritual truth matter, or only the ability to reel huge swathes of the letter off pat?
     
  4. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
    What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
    Rom6:14&15

    Now if Paul is only referring to old law in rom 6:14, why on earth would he follow that up by asking:
    Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
    If he is only referring to old law, you can't sin by not obeying it can you. It is non applicable OC law.
    You cant commit sin by failing to obey non applicable OC law you are not under.

    Dan, tobeloved, you are very blessed people. You understand the heart of the message. Never doubt how much God loves you. For the truth you know proves that.
    I myself, in my youth was raised in a church where the letter was everything. And as people do today I could reel it off pat. I thought I knew so much, I had the mndset of many today who go to a certain type of church. But I didn't know the heart of the message of grace. I was blind to it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  6. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    God's grace is truly amazing. May His tender mercy be upon all of us.
    How wonderful are the works of God toward the children of man...
    May God be magnified..
     
  7. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    A good discussion and explanation of what "Repent" means, and how turning to God is the action of faith required for salvation.

    If a person hears the call of the Gospel, "Repent", which is a call to turn to God, then by default they need to turn away from Satan as their lord, which is done by confessing Jesus as Lord, the act of the obedience of faith, in response to hearing God.


    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

    “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
    Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Romans 10:8-17


    If we repent, and turn to God, then later, we turn from the holy commandment and go back to serving Satan as Lord, then we have turned form the truth, and have become as sinners, in need of repentance or our soul will be lost.


    19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20




    JLB
     
  8. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

    I agree, yet if they don't come back they truly never had Faith.
    1 John 2:19
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    You cannot stand on the one and ignore the other. You stand on both.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  9. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    The true Sabbath, is yet to come, of which the weekly Sabbath points to it, being the 7th day.

    We enter that rest, through faith in Jesus Christ, which means we have entered that rest by faith.

    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. Hebrews 4:8-9

    • There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

    We who believe have entered that rest by faith, which means: we have the hope of obtaining it.

    When you have something by faith, you have not obtained it in reality, but have the hope of obtaining it, a promise from God.


    As the writer goes on to say in Chapter 11:

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

    We who have faith in entering that rest to come, have the substance of the thing we are hoping, and the divine evidence of the thing we have not yet seen, or realized or obtained.


    The rest is the resurrection and receiving immortal bodies that will never die, and living with Jesus Christ for 1000 years, with all His enemies removed.

    The 7000th year is the Day of rest.

    Mankind has been on earth for about 6000 years since Adam, or 6 "prophetic days.

    8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

    • a thousand years as one day.

    The true Sabbath, the Day of rest, that we are all longing for, is the 1000 year reign of Christ with His people, with immortal, glorified bodies that shine like the sun, in which there is no sin and "striving", [war] against the Spirit of eternal life within us. True Rest!


    35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

    • they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


    Now, in this life, we are sons of God by faith, then at His coming, we will have obtained the fullness of being sons of God, in which we will be equal to the angels, and have immortal bodies that will never die, and will be at rest from the sin in our flesh now, striving against what our heart desires, righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, for 1000 years, which is the Day of rest, the true Sabbath, which the weekly Sabbath points us to.


    41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43


    No enemies, with an immortal body that will never die, and shines like the sun.


    Here is a snapshot of what you will look like on that Day, with a sinless body.


    Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Matthew 17:1-2

    • His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.



    JLB
     
  10. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    When people live under a law of righteousness there is much in the Bible they have to ignore.
    Indeed,JLB asked me to quote scripture so we could discuss it. I did as he asked in post 1601, scripture directly relating to justification/ sanctification. I asked him a few questions concerning the passage but he didn't respond.
    Many I am afraid are only confident to quote the letter of what happens if you turn away.
    And you quoted the truth of the matter from John.
    The meat of the message of grace is understanding the outworking of it in the life of the believer, what the truth of that message is.
    Those desiring to live under a law of righteousness will never understand it
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  11. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Ok, what do you say?

    Here is what the scripture you referred to says: 1 Corinthians 15:1-7

    Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 1 Corinthians 15:1-7

    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, is not the Gospel that Jesus preached, nor His apostles.

    This is what they taught to the people and is true, but it's not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


    If that was the Gospel it has to include the whole of what Paul said: Let's look.

    For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received:

    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,... it doesn't end there.

    What Paul was teaching, and what He said he received, doesn't end there, it includes...

    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.


    If what you say is the Gospel, then why would you stop at only a "part" of what Paul was teaching?


    The Gospel is repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

    The Gospel command, that must be obeyed is repent.

    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


    Repent is the command of the Gospel.

    Repent means to turn to God.

    If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

    The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

    This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


    The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

    This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

    15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18
    Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

    It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

    The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.



    JLB
     
  12. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I demand much more of myself, than I do from others, because I demand nothing of anyone, only to share the truth in love.


    Here is the example from scripture:

    19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

    • if anyone among you wanders from the truth,
    This is referring to Christians, brothers or sisters who have wandered from the truth: As a sheep who becomes lost.

    • and someone turns him back,
    The work of turning a person back to the truth, who has wandered from it, requires truth to turn that person back.

    • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

    A person who has wandered from the truth, has become as sinner again, in which they need to turn back, repent, in which someone must tell they so, or otherwise their soul will be lost.

    • and cover a multitude of sins.

    This turning a person back, who has wandered from the truth, is an act of love; for love covers a multitude of sins. This is no different than preaching the Gospel to an unbeliever.




    JLB
     
  13. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter how much of the letter you quote, I very much doubt you understand the heart of the message.
    You asked me to quote scripture and we could discuss it. I did as you asked in post 1601. S rupture relating to justification/ sanctification, following the true path of grace.
    I asked you some questions concerning it. You chose not to respond.
    Anyone can quote the letter my friend selectively, it doesn't mean they understand the true message.
    People who didn't know God quoted it extensively when Jesus walked this earth
     
  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    And I have to be honest here. Anyone who aligns themselves with someone, and heartily endorses the posts of someone who claims Paul is speaking in rom6:14 of not being under old law, he is not referring to applicable NC law, shows they have the same basic failure of understanding as the person they are aligning themself to
     
  15. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Thanks you for pointing that out. I do not deny that Christ's resurrection was witnessed. I should quote the whole thing instead of hoping people will turn to it and read it.

    Christ didn't start his ministry by being Baptized? The Apostles didn't Baptize?


    I agree completely, Christ's resurrection was witnessed.

    2 Timothy 2:25
    In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

    Christ is that truth, we repent of unbelief.

    BTW....the kingdom of God is at hand is talking about the Gospel...Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead and was witnessed.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  16. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    It makes it difficult because they pick and choose scriptures and say...aha..aha.
    They don't take scripture as a whole.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. As a brother said to me:
    You MUST read the Bible as a cohesive whole
     
  18. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Yes, a matter is confirmed by two or three witnesses. When I find something in the Bible that conflicts for me, it isn't the Bible. It is a conflict in me.
     
  19. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I think that's the problem for many. They focus so much on the warnings, because it makes sense to the logical mind. You get what you deserve, what you strive for.
    Pauls message of grace cannot be understood by the logical mind, for it makes no logical sense to the mind of man. Only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light.
     
  20. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Amen
     
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