The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[1stcenturylady]

Please quote my post where I said I would be open to modify my beliefs concerning what we have been discussing. I Can't modify them concerning not being under the law, and for a very good reason:



The power of sin is the law

1cor15:56

I don't want the power of sin in my life

Well, I was mistaken. I went back to our conversation and no where does it say you will join me in reading Romans through Jude with an open mind. Sorry, my mistake.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I was mistaken. I went back to our conversation and no where does it say you will join me in reading Romans through Jude with an open mind. Sorry, my mistake.

NP.
I always do it the same way anyway. Before I open my Bible I ask God to show me his truth in what I am about to read

 

[stuart lawrence]

I demand much more of myself, than I do from others, because I demand nothing of anyone, only to share the truth in love.


Here is the example from scripture:

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• if anyone among you wanders from the truth,

This is referring to Christians, brothers or sisters who have wandered from the truth: As a sheep who becomes lost.

• and someone turns him back,

The work of turning a person back to the truth, who has wandered from it, requires truth to turn that person back.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

A person who has wandered from the truth, has become as sinner again, in which they need to turn back, repent, in which someone must tell they so, or otherwise their soul will be lost.

• and cover a multitude of sins.

This turning a person back, who has wandered from the truth, is an act of love; for love covers a multitude of sins. This is no different than preaching the Gospel to an unbeliever.




JLB

We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:15-18

Paul is writing in the above of a justification that takes time. Justification to be saved is instantaneous. So what justification is he talking about that we seek, not by observing the law, but by faith in Christ?
He is speaking about new converts, seeking to be justified in respect of being changed from being slaves to sin when they come to Christ, into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness( rom6:17&18) this crossing over from one state to the other takes time.
Some sin you can immediately cease when becoming saved, for it has little hold on you, other, more deep rooted sin takes time. Paul stresses we do not seek this justification by observing the law/ striving to defeat our sin, but by faith in Christ. And during this crossing over period we may be seen to be evident sinners, for all sin does not immediately vanish.
Why does Paul ask the question: Does Christ promotes sin?
Imagine a new convert joining a church. They still have glaring sin in their life but are heartily joining in the service. What would someone who did not understand the gospel message of justification think? Here before them stands a man heartily praising God with evident sin in his life. They would think if this man is a Christian, Christ must promote sin wouldn't they.
But though the man is heartily joining in the service he still hates the sin that binds him, for he has the law in his heart and has been born again, but he is still entitled to rejoice in having a saviour, despite the imperfections he desperately wants to see gone, otherwise he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow. He is trusting in Christ for victory over sin, trusting Christ is his rightstanding before the Father.
Immediately after Paul asks the question he answers it:
Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker.
What has Paul so earnestly sought to destroy? A righteousness/ justification of observing the law. Therefore if Paul turned back, and once again strove to be justified by observing the law/ striving to defeat his sin, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/ sinner

 

[JLB777]

We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:15-18

Paul is writing in the above of a justification that takes time. Justification to be saved is instantaneous. So what justification is he talking about that we seek, not by observing the law, but by faith in Christ?
He is speaking about new converts, seeking to be justified in respect of being changed from being slaves to sin when they come to Christ, into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness( rom6:17&18) this crossing over from one state to the other takes time.
Some sin you can immediately cease when becoming saved, for it has little hold on you, other, more deep rooted sin takes time. Paul stresses we do not seek this justification by observing the law/ striving to defeat our sin, but by faith in Christ. And during this crossing over period we may be seen to be evident sinners, for all sin does not immediately vanish.
Why does Paul ask the question: Does Christ promotes sin?
Imagine a new convert joining a church. They still have glaring sin in their life but are heartily joining in the service. What would someone who did not understand the gospel message of justification think? Here before them stands a man heartily praising God with evident sin in his life. They would think if this man is a Christian, Christ must promote sin wouldn't they.
But though the man is heartily joining in the service he still hates the sin that binds him, for he has the law in his heart and has been born again, but he is still entitled to rejoice in having a saviour, despite the imperfections he desperately wants to see gone, otherwise he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow. He is trusting in Christ for victory over sin, trusting Christ is his rightstanding before the Father.
Immediately after Paul asks the question he answers it:
Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker.
What has Paul so earnestly sought to destroy? A righteousness/ justification of observing the law. Therefore if Paul turned back, and once again strove to be justified by observing the law/ striving to defeat his sin, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/ sinner

Although I agree with some of what you said, it certainly doesn't address what I posted from James 5:19-20 and the principle of a Christian, someone who is a "sheep", that has turned from the truth, and become lost; as sinner who who is need of repentance, or their their eternal soul could be lost.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Interpreting the creation week into 1000 year periods is not in the Bible, except for the 1 day is as a 1000 year to God, but where did you see it as prophecy? I know where I read that prophecy, so just curious where you got is as a prophecy?

The creation week?

I never mentioned the creation week, although the context does mention it.

A week is 7 days, with the seventh day, being a day of rest, the Sabbath.

We have been here going on 6000 years, to soon begin to enter the 7000th year.

He will come on the last Day, finish His "work", and enter the Sabbath rest, which prophetically is 1000 years, having finished His work of the previous "6 day work week", He will rest.


as it is written

But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 5:17


JLB

 

[ToBeLoved]

Although I agree with some of what you said, it certainly doesn't address what I posted from James 5:19-20 and the principle of a Christian, someone who is a "sheep", that has turned from the truth, and become lost; as sinner who who is need of repentance, or their their eternal soul could be lost.

JLB

Why does Christ say He is the good shepherd?

 

[ToBeLoved]

He will come on the last Day, finish His "work", and enter the Sabbath rest, which prophetically is 1000 years, having finished His work of the previous "6 day work week", He will rest.


as it is written

But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 5:17


JLB

How does that verse say what you said?

 

[1stcenturylady]

The creation week?

I never mentioned the creation week, although the context does mention it.

A week is 7 days, with the seventh day, being a day of rest, the Sabbath.

We have been here going on 6000 years, to soon begin to enter the 7000th year.

He will come on the last Day, finish His "work", and enter the Sabbath rest, which prophetically is 1000 years, having finished His work of the previous "6 day work week", He will rest.


as it is written

But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 5:17


JLB

You might be interested in this ancient writing.

And, moreover, concerning the sabbath it is
written in the ten commandments, in which he spake on
Mount Sinai unto Moses face to face: Sanctify ye the
sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and a pure heart.
15:2 And in another place he saith, If my sons shall
keep my sabbath, then will I place my mercy upon them.
15:3 He speaketh, too, of the sabbath in the
beginning of the creation: And God made in six days
the works of his hands, and finished them on the
seventh day, and rested in it and sanctified it.
15:4 Consider, my children, what signify the words,
He finished them in six days. They mean this: that in
six thousand years the Lord will make an end of all
things, for a day is with him as a thousand years. And
he himself beareth witness unto me, saying: Behold
this day a day shall be as a thousand years.
Therefore, my children, in six days, that is in six
thousand years, shall all things be brought to an end.
15:5 And the words, He rested on the seventh day,
signify this: After that his Son hath come, and hath
caused to cease the time of the wicked one, and hath
judged the ungodly, and changed the sun and the moon
and the stars, then shall he rest well on the seventh
day.
15:6 And further he saith, Thou shalt sanctify it
with pure hands and a pure heart. Who, therefore, can
sanctify the day which the Lord hath sanctified,
unless he be pure of heart? in all things have we been
deceived.
15:7 Behold, that then indeed we shall be able to
rest well and sanctify; even when we ourselves, having
been justified, and having received the promise, when
iniquity exists no longer, but all things have been
made new by the Lord, we shall then be able to
sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.
15:8 And, further, he saith unto them, Your new
moons and your sabbaths I cannot endure. See, now,
what he meaneth. The sabbaths, that now are, are not
acceptable unto me, but that which I have made is,
even that in which, after that I have brought all
things to an end, I shall make a beginning of the
eighth day, which thing is the beginning of another
world.
15:9 Wherefore we keep the eighth day as a day of
gladness, on which also Jesus rose from the dead, and
after he had appeared ascended unto heaven.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Although I agree with some of what you said, it certainly doesn't address what I posted from James 5:19-20 and the principle of a Christian, someone who is a "sheep", that has turned from the truth, and become lost; as sinner who who is need of repentance, or their their eternal soul could be lost.




JLB

If you only agree with some of what I wrote, why not say what you disagree with?
It wasn't meant to address your point, simply answer the questions I asked you.
I will address your point seperately. I don't mind responding to questions put.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Although I agree with some of what you said, it certainly doesn't address what I posted from James 5:19-20 and the principle of a Christian, someone who is a "sheep", that has turned from the truth, and become lost; as sinner who who is need of repentance, or their their eternal soul could be lost.




JLB

You MUST read the Bible as a cohesive whole. Many on these websites just keep quoting their pet scriptures in opposition to others pet scriptures. It just becomes a scripture quoting contest. OSAS is a good description if such a contest. I freely admit, at first glance there are scriptures that appear to support both views. Does the Bible contradict itself? Of course not, the problem is in not understanding the WHOLE message contained in it. Many are not prepared to that. They are only interested in trying to defend their own narrow view, and never prepared to yield on anything, no matter what scripture is placed before them.
Having said that, let's see if we cannot make sense of your point and mine.
There are endless ways we can look at this from scripture, but in a separate post( so as not to write too long a post), I will take the parable of the sower as the example

 

[stuart lawrence]

Although I agree with some of what you said, it certainly doesn't address what I posted from James 5:19-20 and the principle of a Christian, someone who is a "sheep", that has turned from the truth, and become lost; as sinner who who is need of repentance, or their their eternal soul could be lost.




JLB

In the first example of the parable of the sower, Satan snatched the word out of the heart of people that had been placed there. How could he do that?
Simple answer. The true message was placed in their heart. Christ died for their sins. They stand before God spotless, not because if what they did, but because of what Jesus did for them. Satan then appeals to their human logic: You can't be a Christian unless you live a holy life, you cannot go around sinning and expect to attain heaven. This is accepted forwho could argue against such logic? But the person now no longer has a saviour from sin. They are their own saviour from it. Either they defeat it or are condemned to hell. The word has been snatched out of their heart.
In the second example, people with no true root accept the message. They make only a shallow commitment and set out on the path. But because their commitment was shallow, they give up and walk away when trials and persecutions come. No OSAS for them!
In the third example, it is not said they make a shallow commitment, but despite this, they keep getting sidetracked in their Christian walk by worldly ways. Jesus didn't say they lost their salvation, but they didn't mature in the faith. OSAS? Hmmmmmm.
And each time they got sidetracked, when they came back to the correct path they would have asked God to forgive them for being sidetracked. I think this example best addresses your oft quoted scriptures
But in the last example:
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and UNDERSTANDS it. Matt13:23. This person produced a bountiful crop.
Safe to assume, this person came to Christ and fully surrendered their life to him from their heart. They then understood the truth of the message. Sins power is then broken in their life, for they understand they are not under law but under grace. God, who knows this person from the heart has been willing to surrender their life to him will never let anyone snatch them out of his Sons hand. They will always be secure. They, in reality do have OSAS! . He will never abandon them, or forsake them. He can make them stand:

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Jude24

It is this fourth example in the parable, and only them that will or can accept and continue to follow the true path of grace. Only they can live their lives not under a righteousness of observing the law. Those with a shallow root cannot see it, and those who continually get sidetracked by the world must become hardened against it.
So different scriptures apply to different people. You have to be prepared to pay the price from your heart to live your life, not under law but under grace, and you have to be willing to accept the message.

 

[Dan61861]

Jesus imputes his righteousness when we first come to Him by asking Him to forgive us of our sins, and with us believing in Him as our Savior, and believing that He died and was risen again on our behalf.
The continued imputation of Christ can be found in 1 John 1:7. It says we have to walk in the light of Christ so that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Note:

Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life (see 1 John 5:12).
So if one abides in Christ, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in a believer's life.


...

When I said I agreed, I didn't mean I agree with your doctrine. I agree with what you wrote Here. But you see unfortunately, you don't agree with what you wrote. You believe that Christ's righteousness is only on you when you first believe. Afterwards, you have to maintain your own righteousness to present yourself perfect like He is perfect. You say, you do this through Christ but you still must not sin or you are of the devil.

You believe you gain and loose your salvation, like a ship in a storm. You don't believe in the grace of God, you believe it is cheap grace. You believe you are close to perfect, you rarely sin anymore and when you do...it's just little ones. But these little ones are okay, because they are not sins unto death.

You are correct though, we do not believe the same way. I believe I am saved by Christ, through faith, by the Grace of God not by works of the flesh.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

You mentioned somewhere that you were not on the same page as @JLB777 on the Sabbath. I've gone back and read all of his posts on this thread and all I can find is that regarding the 4th commandment, he doesn't agree with the Mosaic keeping of it. That doesn't tell me what he believes about it, just what he doesn't.

I believe it is clear that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and no longer to be kept as a day of worship. I'd like to know what both of you believe about it. I think I know, but my memory is not always good.

Jesus is our Sabbath rest, don't let anyone tell you differently.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

When I said I agreed, I didn't mean I agree with your doctrine. I agree with what you wrote Here. But you see unfortunately, you don't agree with what you wrote. You believe that Christ's righteousness is only on you when you first believe. Afterwards, you have to maintain your own righteousness to present yourself perfect like He is perfect. You say, you do this through Christ but you still must not sin or you are of the devil.

You believe you gain and loose your salvation, like a ship in a storm. You don't believe in the grace of God, you believe it is cheap grace. You believe you are close to perfect, you rarely sin anymore and when you do...it's just little ones. But these little ones are okay, because they are not sins unto death.

You are correct though, we do not believe the same way. I believe I am saved by Christ, through faith, by the Grace of God not by works of the flesh.

In Christ
Daniel

They insist on living under the law of sin and death don't they.
People say they accept grace, but they believe you are not under the law as long as you faultlessly obey the law/ don't commit sin.
Or, you are only not under law that is non appicable old covenant law. Therefore you are under the law of sin and death they claim you are free from

Wisdom is always proved right by its inconsistencies

 

[Dan61861]

They insist on living under the law of sin and death don't they.
People say they accept grace, but they believe you are not under the law as long as you faultlessly obey the law/ don't commit sin.
Or, you are only not under law that is non amicable old law. Therefore you are under the law of sin and death they claim you are free from

Wisdom is always proved right by its inconsistencies

To obey, they bring the Law down to their level. The outside is clean, yet the inner is filled with grim.

 

[stuart lawrence]

To obey, they bring the Law down to their level. The outside is clean, yet the inner is filled with grim.

Absolutely. As the Pharisees of Jesus day proved. The more in earnest you are as to being justified/ righteous by observing the law, the more you are filled with wickedness,hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. As you say, the outside of the cup sparkles, but not the Inside

 

[Dan61861]

Absolutely. As the Pharisees of Jesus day proved. The more in earnest you are as to being justified/ righteous by observing the law, the more you are filled with wickedness,hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. As you say, the outside of the cup sparkles, but not the Inside

The appearance of holiness.....lots of men have achieved this very thing. I could take them to some Jewish communities that would blow them away in the Law. Many have achieved the appearance.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why are you filled with wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside if you earnestly preach righteousness of observing the law?
You are full of hypocrisy because you cannot practice what you preach. You must demand of others what you cannot attain to in your own life. For, the letter kills.
And you are full of wickedness and everything unclean on the inside for you live under the power of sin( 1cor15:56)
Rom7:7-11 perfectly illustrates this.
Coveting is sin that can be committed without anyone but God knowing you are coveting. So you can look holy and pious on the outside, whilst being full of everything unclean on the Inside

 

[stuart lawrence]

The appearance of holiness.....lots of men have achieved this very thing. I could take them to some Jewish communities that would blow them away in the Law. Many have achieved the appearance.

Absolutely. The Pharisees tithed down to their last mint dil and cumin. They went to extraordinary lengths to rigidly obey the letter of .much law, but it did them no good did it.

 

[Dan61861]

Absolutely. The Pharisees tithed down to their last mint dil and cumin. They went to extraordinary lengths to rigidly obey the letter of .much law, but it did them no good did it.

Paul illustrates this perfectly with himself, a Pharisee of the Pharisees. The 144,000 that Jason enjoys bringing up were redeemed. How are they redeemed, by the blood of Christ...their redeemer.