The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[JLB777]

On the one hand you( mistakenly) quote the Bible to say the TC got abolished, then in another post you quote the TC as examples of you not committing sin/ obeying the law.

I see from this statement you don't understand the difference between the Torah [Law], the first 5 books of the bible, and the law of Moses.

Many years back I was in error. I also used to say the law got abolished. One Christian was aghast. He told me that was heresy( his words not mine)
Not being a know it all I was prepared to consider what he was saying. I came to realise I was wrong.
It's always good to be able to admit when we are wrong.
The law comes in two parts. The law itself you must obey, and the attached penalty for disobedience.
One of those two got abolished, not the other.
Christians have a saviour from their sins/ transgressions of the law. Christ paid their penalty. But the law itself that states:
You must love God with all your heart, not murder, steal, covet etc remains unshakeable, God will not, nor would he abolish that LAW. He transferred them onto tablets of human hearts from tablets of stone(2cor3:3)

Hence:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS( not full stop) for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, being nailed to the cross, not the Torah, the first five books of the bible.

Genesis was before the law of Moses, and shows us the 10 commandments were the law of the Lord, before Moses was ever born, even though Moses wrote the account of Genesis.


Example:

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

The 10 commandments are God's eternal Kingdom Law's.

The law of Moses was temporary, having been added to the Abrahamic Covenant because of transgression, until the Seed should come.


19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

By saying "until", the Spirit was indicating the law was temporary.


The law of Moses was in effect, until Messiah, the Seed should come, and abolish in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Not the Torah [law], but the law of Moses.

• The 10 commandments are God's eternal kingdom laws.

Satan was guilty of murder and lies, even before mankind.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:44


Again Jesus abolished the law of Moses, having nailed it to the cross, not the 10 Commandments.


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

• that was against us

This phrase "that was against us", is a quote from Deuteronomy, referring to the law of Moses.


“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:26


Understanding that the 10 commandments are eternal and did not begin with Moses is crucial.

Understanding that the law of Moses was abolished, and not the 10 commandments, is also crucial, otherwise we still need to sacrifice animals for our sins, and put to death those who violate the Sabbath, as well as those who commit adultery, and so on.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Grace is Jesus!

Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

You can not divorce truth from grace.

The Spirit of truth, and the Spirit of Grace, are the Holy Spirit.


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
John 16:13

and again

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

the law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, having been nailed to the cross.

WITHIN THE LAW OF MOSES WERE THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, as well as the ceremonial law of sacrifices, special washing requirements, circumcision, feast days, Sabbath Laws, and so forth.


JLB

In the above you state the law of Moses was abolished and within the law of Moses was the TC

 

[stuart lawrence]

I see from this statement you don't understand the difference between the Torah [Law], the first 5 books of the bible, and the law of Moses.




The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, being nailed to the cross, not the Torah, the first five books of the bible.

Genesis was before the law of Moses, and shows us the 10 commandments were the law of the Lord, before Moses was ever born, even though Moses wrote the account of Genesis.


Example:

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

The 10 commandments are God's eternal Kingdom Law's.

The law of Moses was temporary, having been added to the Abrahamic Covenant because of transgression, until the Seed should come.


19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

By saying "until", the Spirit was indicating the law was temporary.


The law of Moses was in effect, until Messiah, the Seed should come, and abolish in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Not the Torah [law], but the law of Moses.

• The 10 commandments are God's eternal kingdom laws.

Satan was guilty of murder and lies, even before mankind.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:44


Again Jesus abolished the law of Moses, having nailed it to the cross, not the 10 Commandments.


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

• that was against us

This phrase "that was against us", is a quote from Deuteronomy, referring to the law of Moses.


“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:26


Understanding that the 10 commandments are eternal and did not begin with Moses is crucial.

Understanding that the law of Moses was abolished, and not the 10 commandments, is also crucial, otherwise we still need to sacrifice animals for our sins, and put to death those who violate the Sabbath, as well as those who commit adultery, and so on.



JLB

In a previous post you wrote, the law of Moses was abolished and within the law of Moses were the TC.
Now you say the TC were before the law of moses
In my previous post I produced your comments, for your convenience

 

[stuart lawrence]

Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

You can not divorce truth from grace.

The Spirit of truth, and the Spirit of Grace, are the Holy Spirit.


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
John 16:13

and again

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29



JLB

You ignored the rest of the post you are responding to apart from the first sentance, so I will reciprocate.
However, grace is not just quoting warnings to those who have not surrendered their lives to Christ. It is about the message of grace itself. You appear not to understand that message, you appear confused reading many of your statements.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yeah -- that doubling is called Parallelism, and there are different forms of it, and Hebrew poetry is full of it.

What about opposites when every other verse is a contrast. Like light and darkness. What is that called. I just describe it, but don't know what it's called.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Well, add me to that list. I also agree with what he has said in regards to his recent post, as well. I just try to be a little more cautious when talking about the Holy Spirit. Not that there is anything wrong with others doing so of course. We are all different in our approach in telling others about the love of Christ and the good news.


...

Jason, we are on the same page as far as the outcome, but JLB777 is the first to give credit where credit is definitely due - the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it is the old law without the Holy Spirit, where we are trying to be righteous on our own. I know I've begged you before to honor the Holy Spirit, so I think it is a big mistake not to honor God in the truth of who IN US does not commit sin.

Why are you afraid to talk about the Holy Spirit? Do you think you would be promoting rolling around on the floor or barking like a dog?

 

[Dan61861]

Romans 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.” Those who believe, do not find their righteousness in the Law. We find our righteousness in Christ, in faith. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is why Stuart keeps pointing you back to Paul. What did Paul say? Philippians 3:8 “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,” Paul counted all his good, all his works as nothing, to rest in Christ’s righteousness.

• It doesn’t mean Paul stopped working.

• It doesn’t mean Paul began to sin like a sailor.

• It does mean, Paul counted his righteousness as nothing, He could add nothing to Christ and Him Crucified.

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

• We as Christians look to Christ as our righteousness.

• One of His TITLES is that fact “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”.

• We are delivered in Christ’s righteousness Psalms 71:2 Deliver me in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape: incline thine ear unto me, and save me.

• Psalms 143:11 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble.

• Psalms 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

If we trust in our own righteousness, God will look upon our wickedness as well. Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. This is why, Christ said to the people, I never knew you…you workers of Lawlessness.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, we are on the same page as far as the outcome, but JLB777 is the first to give credit where credit is definitely due - the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it is the old law without the Holy Spirit, where we are trying to be righteous on our own. I know I've begged you before to honor the Holy Spirit, so I think it is a big mistake not to honor God in the truth of who IN US does not commit sin.

Why are you afraid to talk about the Holy Spirit? Do you think you would be promoting rolling around on the floor or barking like a dog?

Let's please be civil and not insulting please. I believe all three persons of the Godhead work in the believer. While I have mentioned the Holy Spirit before, I am more cautious in doing so in heated debates so that nobody would accidentally insult the Spirit.

May God bless you.


...

 

[1stcenturylady]

Let's please be civil and not insulting please. I believe all three persons of the Godhead work in the believer. While I have mentioned the Holy Spirit before, I am more cautious in doing so in heated debates so that nobody would accidentally insult the Spirit.

May God bless you.


...

I'm serious, not trying to be insulting. Many who don't speak in tongues are afraid of anything to do with the Holy Spirit, because of the weird manifestations in the recent past. I am trying to figure out why in the world you would be afraid to give the Holy Spirit credit at all times. If you did, I think even stuart would be more open to what you have to say. To him the law of righteousness is SELF righteousness and what he thinks you teach, not the law of the Spirit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I see from this statement you don't understand the difference between the Torah [Law], the first 5 books of the bible, and the law of Moses.

First, the Torah is not the Law of Moses and refering to the Torah as the Law is going to always lead to error since when the NT apostles refer to the Law it is always the Law of Moses.

So this is just odd and does not follow how the New Testament even refers back to the Law. So I see how this could mess up theology big time.

Now show me where the Torah is referred to as the law.

P.S. The Law of Moses is not the same law as referred to in Genesis. I think it is either Romans or Ephesians that clarifies that this is an error.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm serious, not trying to be insulting. Many who don't speak in tongues are afraid of anything to do with the Holy Spirit, because of the weird manifestations in the recent past. I am trying to figure out why in the world you would be afraid to give the Holy Spirit credit at all times. If you did, I think even stuart would be more open to what you have to say. To him the law of righteousness is SELF righteousness and what he thinks you teach, not the law of the Spirit.

Be intesting to see if your clarification is taken at face value or if the persecution will continue. Every time I have clarified and tried to give more info, the other person just stays with their first impression anyway, so good luck with that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jason, we are on the same page as far as the outcome, but JLB777 is the first to give credit where credit is definitely due - the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it is the old law without the Holy Spirit, where we are trying to be righteous on our own. I know I've begged you before to honor the Holy Spirit, so I think it is a big mistake not to honor God in the truth of who IN US does not commit sin.

Why are you afraid to talk about the Holy Spirit? Do you think you would be promoting rolling around on the floor or barking like a dog?

If you think about it, his theology cannot support the Holy Spirit as being anything other than a beginning point because if one sins and looses their salvation then the Holy Spirit goes with salvation. So I'm sure you will get nothing because the Holy Spirit MUST be denied in that other theology to show salvation can be lost. God, the Holy Spirit is a nice to have and try to keep Him if you can.

 

[JLB777]

First, the Torah is not the Law of Moses and refering to the Torah as the Law is going to always lead to error since when the NT apostles refer to the Law it is always the Law of Moses.

Agreed.

First, the Torah is not the Law of Moses and refering to the Torah as the Law is going to always lead to error since when the NT apostles refer to the Law it is always the Law of Moses.

So this is just odd and does not follow how the New Testament even refers back to the Law. So I see how this could mess up theology big time.

Now show me where the Torah is referred to as the law.

P.S. The Law of Moses is not the same law as referred to in Genesis. I think it is either Romans or Ephesians that clarifies that this is an error.

You need to tell him, not me.


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB777]

You ignored the rest of the post you are responding to apart from the first sentance, so I will reciprocate.
However, grace is not just quoting warnings to those who have not surrendered their lives to Christ. It is about the message of grace itself. You appear not to understand that message, you appear confused reading many of your statements.

Why don't you do this.

Make the point you are intending to make, and use scripture.

All you have done is state your opinion, and make insults.

Use scripture, or don't bother addressing me anymore.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

In the above you state the law of Moses was abolished and within the law of Moses was the TC

Here is what I said:

The 10 commandments are God's eternal Kingdom Law's.

The law of Moses was temporary, having been added to the Abrahamic Covenant because of transgression, until the Seed should come.

The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, being nailed to the cross, not the Torah, the first five books of the bible.

Genesis was before the law of Moses, and shows us the 10 commandments were the law of the Lord, before Moses was ever born, even though Moses wrote the account of Genesis.


Example:

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

The 10 commandments are God's eternal Kingdom Law's.

The law of Moses was temporary, having been added to the Abrahamic Covenant because of transgression, until the Seed should come.


19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

By saying "until", the Spirit was indicating the law was temporary.


The law of Moses was in effect, until Messiah, the Seed should come, and abolish in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Not the Torah [law], but the law of Moses.

• The 10 commandments are God's eternal kingdom laws.

Satan was guilty of murder and lies, even before mankind.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:44


Again Jesus abolished the law of Moses, having nailed it to the cross, not the 10 Commandments.


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

• that was against us

This phrase "that was against us", is a quote from Deuteronomy, referring to the law of Moses.


“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:26


Understanding that the 10 commandments are eternal and did not begin with Moses is crucial.

Understanding that the law of Moses was abolished, and not the 10 commandments, is also crucial, otherwise we still need to sacrifice animals for our sins, and put to death those who violate the Sabbath, as well as those who commit adultery, and so on.



If you want to address me then quote what I said, make your point and use scripture, or don't bother addressing me anymore, with your circular reasoning and opinions.

If you have a question for me ask the question, and I will answer.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

In a previous post you wrote, the law of Moses was abolished and within the law of Moses were the TC.
Now you say the TC were before the law of moses
In my previous post I produced your comments, for your convenience

The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, that contained the commandments, which Abraham learned by faith: by God speaking directly to Him, the way He intended to teach Adam.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5

Faith comes by hearing God speak to you.

Abraham obeyed His commandments and laws which He heard by God's voice.

The law of Moses added, tempoaraily to the Abrahamic Covenant.

Just because the law of Moses was abolished, [that which was added], that doesn't mean the Abrahamic Covenant was affected, having already been established by the Lord [Jesus Christ], when He made covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.

The law of Moses was added to the Covenant, without setting it aside [annulling], and was later removed, when Jesus renewed it and it became the New Covenant.

• the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:15-19


Abraham walked and talked with the Lord, before He became flesh.



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

I said I'm not under the law of Moses, because I am in Christ, and the law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, having been nailed to the cross.

Within the law of Moses, were the 10 commandments, as well as the ceremonial law of sacrifices, special washing requirements, circumcision, feast days, Sabbath Laws, and so forth.


JLB

The above is what you actually stated.
The law of Moses got abolished, and within the law of Moses was the ten commandments.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm serious, not trying to be insulting. Many who don't speak in tongues are afraid of anything to do with the Holy Spirit, because of the weird manifestations in the recent past. I am trying to figure out why in the world you would be afraid to give the Holy Spirit credit at all times. If you did, I think even stuart would be more open to what you have to say. To him the law of righteousness is SELF righteousness and what he thinks you teach, not the law of the Spirit.

You are making a law where none exists. You also have not followed every post I have written through out the many years on various different Christian forums. I have spoken about the Holy Spirit before many times. There is no need for you to make me your adversary. As I said, I try not to bring up the Spirit in heated debates so that somebody does not accidently condemn themselves. The Pharisees condemned themselves for speaking against the Spirit that was working in Christ. There is a time and a place for everything.

May God bless you.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

JLB
You wrote, and I quote:

I said I am not under the law of Moses, because I am in Christ and the law of Moses was abolished, having been nailed to the cross in his flesh
Within the law of Moses were the ten commandments, as well as the ceremonial law of sacrifices, special washing requirements, circumcision, feast days, Sabbath laws and so forth

Unquote

So I did what you asked and quoted word for word what you wrote