The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

ClementofA

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Hebrews 6:2

“Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."


"And what about judgment? "In the first judgment recorded in Scripture, mercy goes hand in hand. If Adam is to die, mercy follows; the serpent's head is to be bruised (Gen 3:15). So, too, even the vengeance of eternal fire on Sodom ends in her restoration (Jude 7, Ezek 16:53-55). We thus understand the striking juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in God's revelation of himself to Moses (Exod 34:6-7)...[f]ew more beautiful illustrations of the view I am urging can be found than that afforded by the story of Achan, stoned by a terrible judgment..in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:24-25); for if we turn to Hosea 2:15 we shall find this promise, 'I will give her the Valley of Achor for a door of hope' -- words pregnant with suggestion."

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture
 
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ClementofA

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Romans 1:20

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

same word found in Jude

Jude 1:6

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

---
2 Peter 2:4

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
---------------
some evil angels - have been - cast down to hell


And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— (Jude 1:6)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
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Hieronymus

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"I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my father, brither and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine."
(Charles Darwin)

"I can conceive of no more powerful and irrefutable argument in favour of atheism than the eternal torments of hell." (Nicholas Berdyaev)
(no idea who that is)
 
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ClementofA

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The king of Babylon was not humbled after being a beast. He even told the others that they were reputed as nothing.
Go back and see how the intent was for the wicked king to get three things - the third was -he was the lowest of men.
Daniel would then go on to never list that part as to what the king accomplished. He referred to Him as the King of heaven - but he did not say -the earth.
He told the people- but as for him - he was added unto.

Regarding Daniel 4:

" After seven years of living like an animal, Nebuchadnezzar finally looked to God. Nebuchadnezzar changed his focus from himself to the one true God who deserved to be worshipped and praised. He turned from his pride and became humble. Right away, his mind was made right. God forgave Nebuchadnezzar and returned all that he had lost, plus a lot more."

9. God Humbles Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4)
 
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ClementofA

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ClementofA

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What you are trying to do is obviouse. IT is very common and has been going on for years or as you say...Ages and Ages".

YOU personally do not like the idea of friends and loved ones being tormented in the Lake of Fire FOREVER.

I got that brother! I am of the same thought!!!!

I have many family and friends who are lost right now. But I can not sit and come up with explanations and excuses to explain away the actual words written in the Bible that describe Hell.
These questions have lead some to want to erase the idea of hell because it is too frightening to accept. I AGREE!!!!

However, many years ago one of my professors told us the way to accept the Scriptures as exactly what God wanted to say and for us to know.

1. Did God say it?????
2. Can God lie???????
3. Is Hell real???????

Now you can make all of the cute little comments and insults that you choose to do because the truth is I do not care one little bit. So, have a good time on me.

Heb. 9:27.............
"it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement".

In other words, the moment you die, before your body even enters the grave, your eternal fate is sealed. You will either go to heaven or hell, forever!

The thought is "A loving God wouldn't put his creatures in hell."

Well I have news for you, friend, God is loving and he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (II Peter 3:9). Hell is for the devil and his angels, and all the rebels that want to break God's laws on this earth-- Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)

Scripture doesn't support your opinion re Heb.9:27 or mis-translation of Mat.25:41:

God is love. His punishments are always corrective, remedial, for salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The word eternal/everlasting "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;"
G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)

Online Parallel Study Bibles

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

Compare Jude 1:7 where the "eternal fire" ended long ago:

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 7, KJV)
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (Jude 7, YLT)

That fire of Jude 1:7 that burnt Sodom went out long ago. It wasn't "eternal" as some pro eternal hell versions mis-translate it, misleading the public. Likewise the same words mistranslated "eternal fire" at Mt.18:8; 25:41 refer to fires that are of finite duration, not eternal. Moreover since Mt.25:41 refers to the devil's finite punishment, his punishment of Rev.20:10, "into the ages of the ages", must also be finite, but is often deceptively translated "forever and ever".

The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

Jude 1:7 Interlinear: as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as some versions says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen,
experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

As for Hebrews 9:27:

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with the statement that "100% of mankind will die and face judgment". Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

How sad it is that so many Damnationists err in claiming Hebrews 9:27 proves there is no salvation after death.

Scripture reveals there are those who will not die even once & implies there are those who will die at least a second time.
There are those who will never die, not even once:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

The reference to Hebrews 9:27 does not speak of "an expiration date" for salvation or God's love. After death comes judgement for all, sinners & saints. Judgement is a good thing:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Greek word for "chastening" here can mean correction:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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Der Alte

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and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)
...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":
And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)
But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:
24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)
So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).
Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".
. .
What does the Greek phrase εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων mean? Does it really mean "to the ages of the ages," implying that the past and the future are a succession of various periods of time of unknown length? Or does it mean "forever and ever?" In his book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible E. W. Bullinger describes this as a figure of speech.
Rev. 1:6 . The ages of the ages i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever
Polyptoton; or, Many Inflections
The Repetition of the same Part of Speech in different Inflections
Po-lyp ́-t-ton. Greek, ; from (pols), many, and (ptsis), a falling:in grammar, a case
(from an assumed form , pto, to fall). Hence, Polyptoton means with many cases, i.e. , a repetition of the same noun in several cases, or of the same verb in several moods or tenses. With many inflections is a definition which covers both nouns and verbs. It is called also METAGOGE (met-a-g-gee). Greek, from (meta), a change (ago), to lead. It means a change of course; a different arrangement of the same word, a leading of the same word through different inflections.
(b) In singular and genitive plural A noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree which does not exist in Hebrew.
Thus this figure is a kind of Enallage (q.v.), or exchange, by which a noun in the
genitive plural, is used instead of a superlative adjective. P. 302
Figures Of Speech Used In The Bible Explained And Illustrated By E. W. Bullinger,
http://www.biblicalresearchjournal.org/brj-pages_pdf/001ewb_figures_of_speech.pdf
It is often argued that aion cannot mean eternal since it is sometimes used to refer to things that are not eternal. such as a slave serving forever Exodus 21:6. While the word aion is used to refer to something which is not eternal it is never described or defined as actually meaning less than eternity. But in the NT aion is described or defines as eternity and aionios is defined or described as eternal.
Thirteen verses: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, Philemon 1:15, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7
[1] 1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.​
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” “aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”
[2] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below.
[3] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.​
Here “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[4] Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever.[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​
Here “aion” is in apposition with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”
[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever, .[αἰών/aion]​
Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”
[6]1Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]​
Here “aionios” is in apposition with “immortality”. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap life aionios i.e. not “corruption.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
[8]Philemon 1:15
(15) Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while [ὥρα/ora] was that you might have him back forever—[αἰώνιος/aionios]​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “a little while” “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “a little while” “Eternal” is the opposite of “a little while.”.
[9]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “death” If “aionios” is only a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[10]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
Here “aionios” and “aion” are contrasted with not “snatch them out of my hand” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of not “snatch them out of my hand.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[11]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[12]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[13]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”
= = = = =
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.
III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular. Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49​
=======
• A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.​



.....
 
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SBC

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This is correct as far as it goes but

Ge Hinnom, which literally means the valley of Hinnom,

γέεννα (Gehenna) is the Greek word, for the Hebrew word Gêhinnōm , the valley of Hinnom, outside of Jerusalem; a historical evil, wicked, fire burning children place.

[/QUOTE]was in fact the name Jews used for hell.[/QUOTE]

Gehenna is not hell. Living men have not seen hell, but they did see things that happened in the valley of Hinnom and equated it with hell.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell.

....evil, wicked, fire burning children place.

If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment,

and not? ....evil, wicked, fire burning children place.

He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must not have required correcting.

And what do you think you are correcting me on by re-wording my same message?

God Bless,
SBC
 
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ClementofA

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• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.


.....

Why are you quoting Vincent? Did you forget this:

From Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. Re aion, the equivalent of olam, he says:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

Word Studies in the New Testament

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


"Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17." [by Marvin R. Vincent, from Word Studies in the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans, 1973, p.58f).]

Note on Olethron Aionion (Eternal Destruction) – What The Hell Is Hell?
All You Want to Know About Hell

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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ClementofA

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It is often argued that aion cannot mean eternal since it is sometimes used to refer to things that are not eternal. such as a slave serving forever Exodus 21:6. While the word aion is used to refer to something which is not eternal it is never described or defined as actually meaning less than eternity. But in the NT aion is described or defines as eternity and aionios is defined or described as eternal.
.....

Philo describes an aion as a "long" aion & "unlimited" aion. If aion meant eternal in & of itself, why use such language? It would be pointless.

Scripture repeatedly describes an aion or aions as coming to an end. How then does it mean "eternal"? Does "eternal" have an end?

LSJ lexicon defines aion as an age, period of time, epoch. Obviously LSJ opposes defining aion as "eternal & only eternal, never finite duration".

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
 
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Major1

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Scripture doesn't support your opinion re Heb.9:27 or mis-translation of Mat.25:41:

God is love. His punishments are always corrective, remedial, for salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The word eternal/everlasting "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;"
G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)

Online Parallel Study Bibles

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

Compare Jude 1:7 where the "eternal fire" ended long ago:

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 7, KJV)
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (Jude 7, YLT)

That fire of Jude 1:7 that burnt Sodom went out long ago. It wasn't "eternal" as some pro eternal hell versions mis-translate it, misleading the public. Likewise the same words mistranslated "eternal fire" at Mt.18:8; 25:41 refer to fires that are of finite duration, not eternal. Moreover since Mt.25:41 refers to the devil's finite punishment, his punishment of Rev.20:10, "into the ages of the ages", must also be finite, but is often deceptively translated "forever and ever".

The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

Jude 1:7 Interlinear: as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as some versions says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen,
experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

As for Hebrews 9:27:

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with the statement that "100% of mankind will die and face judgment". Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

How sad it is that so many Damnationists err in claiming Hebrews 9:27 proves there is no salvation after death.

Scripture reveals there are those who will not die even once & implies there are those who will die at least a second time.
There are those who will never die, not even once:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

The reference to Hebrews 9:27 does not speak of "an expiration date" for salvation or God's love. After death comes judgement for all, sinners & saints. Judgement is a good thing:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Greek word for "chastening" here can mean correction:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

NOPE! You personally have the problem of accepting that God will punish the wicked lost eternally in the lake of fire and are working to make the Scriptures fit that opinion. Your theology is as old as the hills my friend and I personally do not agree with your thinking.

Matthew 18:8.......
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,".

Did God say that?
Can God lie?
Is hell real?

Matthew 25:46 says.........
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer in heaven.

Did God say that?
Can God Lie?
Is hell real?

1 Thess. 1:9...........
"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,".

Jude 7..........
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire".

Jude 12-13........
"These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever,".

You and those like you who can not accept the Bible facts as printed for you like to use the argument of ..."forever and ever".

In the original it is.......
foreverGK.gif
which is "aionas ton aionon" translated as "ages of the ages".

Eternal - without end
Eternal Damnation
1 Tim. 1:17 says of this.......
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen,".

Rev. 5:13 says...........
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever".

Then in Rev. 19:3.....
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever".

But there is more in Rev. 20:10......
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,".

The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity.

In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great harlot of Babylon from Rev. 17:1-4 whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal, and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

I would also recommend Rev. 14:11 to you for consideration .........
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. There, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.
 
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Major1

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lol as I said not the point I was making and I clarified my point after accepting that it could be a miscommunication for either of us or both of us...so do you want to address my point or continue to go back and forth in some prideful display of "superiority" over ineffective communication that has already been addressed?

Neither. See ya.
 
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Der Alte

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γέεννα (Gehenna) is the Greek word, for the Hebrew word Gêhinnōm , the valley of Hinnom, outside of Jerusalem; a historical evil, wicked, fire burning children place.
was in fact the name Jews used for hell.
Gehenna is not hell. Living men have not seen hell, but they did see things that happened in the valley of Hinnom and equated it with hell.
Why are you taking offense to my post, I said you were correct I merely added documentation from Jewish writings, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud?
....evil, wicked, fire burning children place
.
and not? ....evil, wicked, fire burning children place.
And what do you think you are correcting me on by re-wording my same message?
God Bless,
SBC
Once again I said you were correct. What is your purpose for repeating "evil, wicked, fire burning children place" 3 times? I quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia which acknowledged that Jews sacrificed their children to pagan deities in the valley of Hinnom. Are you looking for something to be offended about?
 
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razzelflabben

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Neither. See ya.
interesting...you attack what I say which was not what was intended for whomever was at fault then when I point out what I really did intend to be understood you get "sassy" with me and refuse to address my point....interesting indeed...very interesting....kind of rude but interesting none the less..
 
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SBC

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How about Rv.5:13?

ClementofA said:
The door was shut, but not forever:

Have a Scriptural quote that says what you say?

How about Rv.5:13?

Rev 5:13
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Where does Rev 5:13 mention the door being opened "again" ?

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Why are you taking offense to my post, I said you were correct I merely added documentation from Jewish writings, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud?

Once again I said you were correct. What is your purpose for repeating "evil, wicked, fire burning children place" 3 times? I quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia which acknowledged that Jews sacrificed their children to pagan deities in the valley of Hinnom. Are you looking for something to be offended about?

I wasn't offended - I noticed you agreed with a portion - then added

Der Alter said:
This is correct as far as it goes but


And now you clarify your intent -

I merely added documentation

Thanks. No issue with me.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Philo describes an aion as a "long" aion & "unlimited" aion. If aion meant eternal in & of itself, why use such language? It would be pointless.
You continue to misrepresent Philo after I have addressed this more than once, therefore the misrepresentation is intentional. Here from the same source you are quoting.
in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only (Philo Deus. 31-32).
Philo of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The meaning of aionios in Philo can be described as time-enduring’ and/or lmmortal’ p. 209
Philo concludes that “in aion nothing is past nor will be future. but it is only in a present state”
“in aion” everything is 'present', which means that nothing is unseen or unsure or ‘in the shadow’ p.224
“in aion” there is no change. All the farther, so he argues. must God, who is above aion be from change. P. 225
The meaning of aionios (“always”. “continuously”. “unintermittently”. “ceaselessly”, letting no opportunity go by p.229
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo
Scripture repeatedly describes an aion or aions as coming to an end. How then does it mean "eternal"? Does "eternal" have an end?
Scripture never "describes" or "defines" aion or aions as coming to an end. Sometimes in scripture aions(s) refers to something which is not eternal but as I have shown above aion is defined or described as immortal, unchangeable, incorruptible.
LSJ lexicon defines aion as an age, period of time, epoch. Obviously LSJ opposes defining aion as "eternal & only eternal, never finite duration"
Here copied from LSJ, Liddell, Scott, Jones lexicon of Classical Greek.

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ, Ion. and alsoἡ,
1. long space of time, age, αἰὼν γίγνεται 'tis an age, Men. 536.5; esp. with Preps., ἀπ' αἰῶνος of old, Hes. Th. 609, Luk_1:70; οἱ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰ. Ῥωμαῖοι D.C. 63.20; δι' αἰῶνος perpetually, A. Ch. 26, Eu. 563; all one's life long, S. El. 1024; δι' αἰῶνος μακροῦ, ἀπαύστου, A. Supp. 582, 574; τὸν δι' αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id. Ag. 554; εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν αἰ. Lycurg. 106, Isoc. 10.62; εἰς τὸν αἰ. LXX Gen_3:23, al., D.S. 21.17, Joh_8:35, Ps.- Luc. Philopatr. 17; εἰς αἰῶνα αἰῶνος LXX Psa_132:14(131).14; ἐξ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως αἰῶνος ib. Jer_7:7; ἐπ' αἰ. ib. Exo_15:18; ἕως αἰῶνος ib. 1Ki_1:22, al.: — without a Pr, τὸν ἅπαντα αἰ. Arist. Cael. 279a22; τὸν αἰῶνα Lycurg. 62, Epicur Ephesians 1 p.8U.; eternity, opp. χρόνος, Pl. Ti. 37d, cf. Metrod. Fr. 37, Ph. 1.496, 619,
Plot. 3.7.5, etc.; τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους Epicur. Sent. 20.
2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος this present world, opp. ὁ μέλλων, Mat_13:22, cf. Rom_12:2; ὁ νῦν αἰ. 1Ti_6:17, 2Ti_4:10 : — hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld. D. 3 Fr. 84; εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ. LXX To. 13.4; εἰς τοὺς αἰ.ib. Si. 45.24, al., Rom_1:25, etc.; εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων LXX 4Ma_18:24, Php_4:20, etc.; ἀπὸ τῶν αἰ., πρὸ τῶν αἰ., Eph_3:9, 1Co_2:7; τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. ib.10.11.
 
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