The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Uber Genius

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In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.
So just a quick note: The view is known as eternal conscious "torment" view not "torture."

torment -severe physical or mental suffering.

torture - to inflict severe physical or mental suffering.

One can be tormented by horrible decisions with horrible consequences without having a third party "inflict" that suffering.

torment leaves open the notion that one's continued rejection of God is the cause of their suffering as opposed to an eternal inflicting of punishment.

Thanks for presenting your argument in a deductive form so it is easy to engage the individual premises. This is rare out on CF.
 
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Uber Genius

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Only when finite, imperfect men try to impose their faulty, limited understanding onto the perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God.
Isaiah 55:8-9
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
So this seems like a universal justification for lack of justification for various doctrines. If engaged universally across all doctrinal positions it would seem to destroy all knowledge not just serve to knock down Hieronymus' defeater.

I'm a fan of your erudite posts but find this response costs too much in the theological knowledge department.

What could be said along those lines I guess is that since we are morally imperfect beings our intuitions about a moral perfections are way off not just slightly off. Off in such a way that is not approximated by the other attributes of God's nature like power, or knowledge.

So that God's punishment of rejecting him temporarily (temporary sins), would be much more egregious than morally imperfect beings intuit.

Alternatively, we could go the C.S. Lewis route of suggesting that we would go on eternally rejecting God as Satan and the demons do.
 
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Uber Genius

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You open a topic to discuss the justification of ECT, so let's.
I think your motivation is vengefulness, so you justify your hate towards the wicked by embracing ECT.
(not just you, i think it's human nature)

...but maybe i'm wrong...
Ad Hominem. Really?

The OP had many premises in the argument. Please pick one and defeat. OP's motivation maybe vengefulness or maybe that the OP has found that "ECT" has a marvelous throat-clearing effect when pronounced with gusto. So what? Just the premises or soundness of the argument are in view.
 
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Uber Genius

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Why do we assume that it is God who causes the punishment to happen? If we live a life not moving closer to God in love, when we rise from the dead, we will not wish to approach Him either. But, in that reality, thought manifests as action immediately (and permanently). Our own choices isolate ourselves from God, but in heaven, there is nowhere to run. By default, we end up in the place created for Satan. In that place, our spirit realizes we have totally failed to respond to love. Eternal life plus eternal disappointment creates eternal sense of burning. God does not do this to us, reality does it to us. Understood this way, God has done everything possible to try to prevent it while we were alive, from warning Adam and Eve, to giving Torah, to sending Jesus. This view exonerates both His love, and His justice still operates by allowing reality to claim its victims.
Lewis wrote in The Great Divorce, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’”

This captures your idea it seems.
 
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Der Alte

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<e1954>It is a parable.
One of the most important principles of Bible study is that one must derive meanings based upon the greater context of the Bible. Many other scriptures point to the fact that the dead are unconscious, awaiting a resurrection at a later time. Therefore it’s clear that this parable was never meant to be taken literally—it’s a parable meant to make a point about repentance and judgment.
<end>
This what I call the SPAM-Fig argument. When scripture as written contradicts heterodox doctrines simply dismiss them as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative anything but literal. I quoted three passages of scripture in the two OT passages God, Himself, is speaking in the NT Jesus, Himself, is speaking none of them are in the form of a parable.
.....The English word "parable" is derived from the Greek word "παραβολή/parabolē" which means literally "throw beside." It means to explain or clarify something unknown with something known.
 
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Hieronymus

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Ad Hominem. Really?
Itwas my opinion, which i said could be wrong.
And ad human nature rather, (as i explained).
The OP had many premises in the argument. Please pick one and defeat. OP's motivation maybe vengefulness or maybe that the OP has found that "ECT" has a marvelous throat-clearing effect when pronounced with gusto. So what? Just the premises or soundness of the argument are in view.
I tend to focus on the moral argument(s).
I'll have a look maybe at what else i wrote.
It's been a while (like 2 years...)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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***
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the
Pharisees, although "publicans and sinners" were also present. The fact that Jesus talked with outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story (parable) of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.
I tend to agree.
That covenantle parable is my largest study in the NT along with Gehenna and Lake of Fire...........

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page


The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day,” that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...” Yet it is generally conceded that the story of the prodigal son is a parable and all the fundamentalist preachers love to preach from its beautiful figures, thus applying it as a parable.

Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him. Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees.
The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke.

There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible. At the beginning of Jesus’ discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that “He spoke this parable unto them, saying,” (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is “the parable this..” This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable?
The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, “And He spoke this parable unto them,” was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - “this parable”?

It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!
=============================================

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).

The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua.

The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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No thanks.
Been there, done that. Waste of time.
If you would not think of throwing your own child into a fire, why do you think God would?
End of story.
Or drive daggers into the demon child:
==================
Robert, pursued by the police, drives to a church to kill Damien on consecrated ground, but as he is about to use the sacred dagger, he is killed by an officer of the Diplomatic Protection Group. Robert's funeral shown in parallel to the death of the Pope is attended by the President of the United States. After the service is over, the Secret Service informs the President that his car is waiting.
The President is seen to be holding the hand of Damien, whom he has presumably adopted. The last shot shows Damien slowly turning to give the camera a diabolical smile.

 
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Der Alte

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No thanks.
Been there, done that. Waste of time.
If you would not think of throwing your own child into a fire, why do you think God would?
End of story
.
Have you heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? Because they were so sinful God sent down fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed both cities and other cities in the plain, killing thousands of people; men, women, old, young, children, infants.
 
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Saint Steven

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It seems, then, very strange to seek to escape the consequences of the lesser obligation, by admitting one still greater; to seek, in a word, to evade the results of a divine universal fatherhood, by pleading that God is only the Creator of all. Hence a good Creator, freely creating for a doom of endless sin, freely introducing a dualism, is a profound moral contradiction. Can we even imagine a Good Being of His own freewill calling into existence creatures to hate Him for ever, or certainly creating those who will, as He knows, hate Him for ever, and sin for ever! Thus, in the awful yet tender light of Creation, the traditional creed shrinks and shrivels up - "Seeing then that the spirit comes from God," * * says S. JEROME, "it is NOT JUST that they should perish eternally who are sustained by His breath and spirit."- In Is. lvii. 6.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six
 
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Der Alte

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<SS>It seems, then, very strange to seek to escape the consequences of the lesser obligation, by admitting one still greater; to seek, in a word, to evade the results of a divine universal fatherhood, by pleading that God is only the Creator of all. Hence a good Creator, freely creating for a doom of endless sin, freely introducing a dualism, is a profound moral contradiction. Can we even imagine a Good Being of His own freewill calling into existence creatures to hate Him for ever, or certainly creating those who will, as He knows, hate Him for ever, and sin for ever! Thus, in the awful yet tender light of Creation, the traditional creed shrinks and shrivels up - "Seeing then that the spirit comes from God," * * says S. JEROME, "it is NOT JUST that they should perish eternally who are sustained by His breath and spirit."- In Is. lvii. 6. Thomas Allin<SS>
Unfortunately neither Jerome nor Thomas Allin are scripture.
Please show me 1 or more verses spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, which states that they will save all mankind, even the unrighteous after they die. I don't mean the standard out-of-context proof text or inference, e.g. God s merciful and He would not do something so terrible as punishing anyone forever.
 
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Der Alte

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<LLOJ>
It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!...<LLOJ>
Evidently because I disagree with the premise of this post I am considered to NOT have a "thinking mind."
In some ways Luke 16:19-32 does appear to be a parable, but for many reasons, it can be shown that it is not a parable.
The definition of a parable: Greek: "παραβολή/parabole is based on the Greek word, παραβάλλω, paraballo, "to throw or lay beside, to compare. "παραβολή or parable means to place something known beside something unknown for the purpose of comparison. A Biblical parable uses a story from ordinary, every day events and objects that the intended audience is familiar with, then Jesus, explains or clarifies an unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth by comparing it to what is known. The question is then, what is the unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth in the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The spiritual truth of Luke 16:19-32, has or needs nothing to be "thrown beside" or compared to. Unlike the parables of the sower, lost coins, lost sheep which Jesus had to explain to be understood.

Everyone understands from human experience the parables of the sower, a widow losing coins, a man planting a field, etc! The view, that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, miserably fails. The entire scene in the "grave" is totally outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something totally unknown to his audience.
Further very strong evidence that Luke 16 is not a parable, is that an actual historical person is named, Abraham. The rich man addresses him as, “father Abraham.” Jesus could legitimately use the ordinary, everyday actions of anonymous men, widows, shepherds, absent landowners, etc., to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. Throughout history people have lost and found sheep and coins, farmers have sown seed, sons have squandered their father’s money and returned home in shame, etc. But, since Jesus did not identify the story as a parable, make any other disclaimer, or ever explain the story to his disciples, if Abraham was not in that specific place, and did not speak the specific words Jesus quotes, then Jesus was lying. Jesus is not a liar.
The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. In none of the legitimate parables did Jesus ever give specific names. Although the story begins with "there was a certain..." this phrase alone does not indicate that it was a parable.
One final point every ECF who quotes or refers to the Lazarus/rivh man account considered it factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul, has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.



 
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