The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Major1

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You continue to misrepresent Philo after I have addressed this more than once, therefore the misrepresentation is intentional. Here from the same source you are quoting.
in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only (Philo Deus. 31-32).
Philo of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The meaning of aionios in Philo can be described as time-enduring’ and/or lmmortal’ p. 209
Philo concludes that “in aion nothing is past nor will be future. but it is only in a present state”
“in aion” everything is 'present', which means that nothing is unseen or unsure or ‘in the shadow’ p.224
“in aion” there is no change. All the farther, so he argues. must God, who is above aion be from change. P. 225
The meaning of aionios (“always”. “continuously”. “unintermittently”. “ceaselessly”, letting no opportunity go by p.229
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

Scripture never "describes" or "defines" aion or aions as coming to an end. Sometimes in scripture aions(s) refers to something which is not eternal but as I have shown above aion is defined or described as immortal, unchangeable, incorruptible.

Here copied from LSJ, Liddell, Scott, Jones lexicon of Classical Greek.

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ, Ion. and alsoἡ,
1. long space of time, age, αἰὼν γίγνεται 'tis an age, Men. 536.5; esp. with Preps., ἀπ' αἰῶνος of old, Hes. Th. 609, Luk_1:70; οἱ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰ. Ῥωμαῖοι D.C. 63.20; δι' αἰῶνος perpetually, A. Ch. 26, Eu. 563; all one's life long, S. El. 1024; δι' αἰῶνος μακροῦ, ἀπαύστου, A. Supp. 582, 574; τὸν δι' αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id. Ag. 554; εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν αἰ. Lycurg. 106, Isoc. 10.62; εἰς τὸν αἰ. LXX Gen_3:23, al., D.S. 21.17, Joh_8:35, Ps.- Luc. Philopatr. 17; εἰς αἰῶνα αἰῶνος LXX Psa_132:14(131).14; ἐξ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως αἰῶνος ib. Jer_7:7; ἐπ' αἰ. ib. Exo_15:18; ἕως αἰῶνος ib. 1Ki_1:22, al.: — without a Pr, τὸν ἅπαντα αἰ. Arist. Cael. 279a22; τὸν αἰῶνα Lycurg. 62, Epicur Ephesians 1 p.8U.; eternity, opp. χρόνος, Pl. Ti. 37d, cf. Metrod. Fr. 37, Ph. 1.496, 619,
Plot. 3.7.5, etc.; τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους Epicur. Sent. 20.
2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος this present world, opp. ὁ μέλλων, Mat_13:22, cf. Rom_12:2; ὁ νῦν αἰ. 1Ti_6:17, 2Ti_4:10 : — hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld. D. 3 Fr. 84; εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ. LXX To. 13.4; εἰς τοὺς αἰ.ib. Si. 45.24, al., Rom_1:25, etc.; εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων LXX 4Ma_18:24, Php_4:20, etc.; ἀπὸ τῶν αἰ., πρὸ τῶν αἰ., Eph_3:9, 1Co_2:7; τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. ib.10.11.

My dear friend, I for one appreciate you efforts on this subject. But please understand that when someone has committed themselves to this misunderstanding of God's Word on the simple phrase of "FOREVER AND EVER", there is absolutely nothing that you are going to be able to say to correct their purposeful misapplication of its meaning.

You can post the right thing from now till the cows come home and it will not be acceptable to our brother.

He is unable to grasp that what God said about torments is exactly what He wanted to say.

There are lots and lots of people who have had loved ones die in sin, lost, and these people just can not accept the Bible fact that those loved ones will be tormented in the lake of fire by God forever and ever.
 
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Major1

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interesting...you attack what I say which was not what was intended for whomever was at fault then when I point out what I really did intend to be understood you get "sassy" with me and refuse to address my point....interesting indeed...very interesting....kind of rude but interesting none the less..

RFLOL!
 
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razzelflabben

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odd how the uncomfortable truth makes you rude, disrespectful, and fill your posts with pride.

May you discover the truth of God and in that truth discover the joy of living out Christ over the pride and disrespect that Satan is calling all of us to.
 
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Der Alte

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My dear friend, I for one appreciate you efforts on this subject. But please understand that when someone has committed themselves to this misunderstanding of God's Word on the simple phrase of "FOREVER AND EVER", there is absolutely nothing that you are going to be able to say to correct their purposeful misapplication of its meaning.
You can post the right thing from now till the cows come home and it will not be acceptable to our brother.
He is unable to grasp that what God said about torments is exactly what He wanted to say.
There are lots and lots of people who have had loved ones die in sin, lost, and these people just can not accept the Bible fact that those loved ones will be tormented in the lake of fire by God forever and ever.
I appreciate this. I have been at this forum since '00 and I learned long ago that many of the hard core heterodox are almost impossible to reach, so my efforts are to counter their false teachings. By continuing to refute their false teachings and posting the truth I might, and have, reached people who are on the fence, either considering joining or leaving a heterodox religious group.
 
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SBC

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I appreciate this. I have been at this forum since '00 and I learned long ago that many of the hard core heterodox are almost impossible to reach, so my efforts are to counter their false teachings. By continuing to refute their false teachings and posting the truth I might, and have, reached people who are on the fence, either considering joining or leaving a heterodox religious group.

Agree.

That is the SAME concept Jesus taught, as he spoke to those who did BELIEVE, but made His speaking loud enough that others standing by COULD HEAR.

John 11
[42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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ClementofA

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NOPE! You personally have the problem of accepting that God will punish the wicked lost eternally in the lake of fire and are working to make the Scriptures fit that opinion. Your theology is as old as the hills my friend and I personally do not agree with your thinking.

Matthew 18:8.......
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,".

[snip]

In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great harlot of Babylon from Rev. 17:1-4 whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal, and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.


All those mistranslations - based on one deceptively translated Greek word aion & the adjective aionios - have been addressed many times in posts here. See also:

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

And these posts have never been answered:

posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Furthermore this translation opposes endless punishment & agrees with me that is a false dogma:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free
 
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ClementofA

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Have a Scriptural quote that says what you say?



Rev 5:13
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Where does Rev 5:13 mention the door being opened "again" ?

God Bless,
SBC


This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free
 
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ClementofA

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You continue to misrepresent Philo after I have addressed this more than once, therefore the misrepresentation is intentional. Here from the same source you are quoting.
in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only (Philo Deus. 31-32).
Philo of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The meaning of aionios in Philo can be described as time-enduring’ and/or lmmortal’ p. 209
Philo concludes that “in aion nothing is past nor will be future. but it is only in a present state”
“in aion” everything is 'present', which means that nothing is unseen or unsure or ‘in the shadow’ p.224
“in aion” there is no change. All the farther, so he argues. must God, who is above aion be from change. P. 225
The meaning of aionios (“always”. “continuously”. “unintermittently”. “ceaselessly”, letting no opportunity go by p.229
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

Already addressed:

You have summed up the false teaching of Universalism very well. You quote 2-3 words out-of-context and when your own source disproves your assumptions/presuppositions you simply ignore it and keep repeating the same argument over and over as if endless repetition will make it true.

In your mind only. It's one thing to say it, another to prove it. Just saying it & quoting something while acting like it said anything to support your statement does not prove it. It doesn't even provide an explanation in your own words supporting your claim. That you have failed to do. As you have failed to explain, answer or disprove this:

Philo speaks in four passages of a "long aion". Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Obviously not.

Philo, at the time of Christ, also spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?

Your quote is in harmony with what i've been saying all along.

Furthermore, though you haven't admitted it yet, you made the errors of a novice, as follows:

Keizer doesn't say what you falsely said here:

The words "the unlimited aion" are not Philo's but a paraphrase of the LXX. The rest of your irrelevant repetition ignored and omitted.

You are wrong. Contrary to your statement above, the words "unlimited aion" are in fact Philo's:

Page 212 says "... "the unlimited aion" is Philo's paraphrase..."

Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

Showing once again you refuse to read the entire quote in-context only quoting three words words.
Here is the quote in-context again. See if you can force yourself to read and understand all 90+ words
(use) Ton apeiron aiôna, the unlimited aiön”, is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exod. 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo. ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of “all. endless, time” (Chapter II text [33]). (meaning) The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of continuity by the words “not for one moment ungoverned” and "uninterrupted”. (context) In Philo’s rewording of Exod.15: 18, God's kingship is his reign over the human soul. P.212
Please note the author is directing the reader to the context, which you continue to ignore. If you ignore the context then you are misquoting and misrepresenting the author.

Which supports what i just said above. The words "unlimited aion" are Philo's words. Not, as you erroneously declared, "not Philo's" words.

Evidently you made the same error re Philo writing about "long aioned life":


Perhaps you should refrain from copy/pasting everything from tents-r-us and do your own research. Just saying.

[snip]

"Long aioned life" is another paraphrase from the LXX.
 
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SBC

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This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Yes "THIS" includes "EVERYONE".
Yes "THIS" is EVERYONE worshiping the Lord.

No "THIS" is NOT being "forgiven or saved", as you imply.
No "THIS" is not news - and I spoke to "THIS" already.

Isa 45
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

It is not a mystery that EVERYONE WILL BELIEVE.
It is not a mystery that NOT EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED.

Matt 25
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Those who DID NOT make themselves ready, DO NOT attend the marriage.
Those who DID make themselves ready, are RECEIVING their new BODY'S.
Those who RECEIVE their new BODY'S will be WITH Christ Jesus, during JUDGEMENT of those who DID NOT MAKE themselves ready.

Luke 13
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

2 Tim 4
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Those whom God has "quickened" shall be saved.
Those whom God has "not quickened" shall not be saved.

A man WHO has been "quickened", HAS the Spirit of God "WITHIN" him.

God is a God of the "LIVING". Gods Spirit dwells "IN" the living., who are WITH God.
You advocate Gods Spirit dwells in the DEAD, who are separated from God.

The quick AND the dead shall be judged, according to the evidence. Gods Books.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Shempster

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Can we have a temporary time-out on this?
Been following this thread as well as several others regarding the same topic and some that go back nearly 2,000 years with the early church fathers.

It seems like there is ample biblical "evidence" to both prove and disprove about every subject.
Am I the only one that thinks this is strange?
For the last 30 years of being a Christian, the church has told me that the bible is the complete, inerrant word of God and tells us every last iota of info that we need to lead us to all truth. Yet, it appears to support numerous ideologies in some verses and refutes them in another. And bible teachers say that the opposing views are just misunderstanding scripture.
My one question is: "if the bible IS the absolute word of God and is the answer to all truth, then why doesn't it just plainly say that this or that is true? Why is it that all we get is a few words the vaguely refer to a theology but not plainly clarify it?
The topic of eternal torture may be perhaps one of the most important of all! Yet after 2,000 years it is a divided subject. People choose their side and dig in their heels no matter the opposing scripture.
This is surely a bizarre anomaly. Is God trying to trick us? Why is the evidence so vague? Why does the bible seem to include its own opposition?
Jesus prayed to the Father that we would all be AS ONE as He and the Father were one. But that is not what we have. We have unlimited division and misunderstandings because the bible is unclear.

It appears that there is sufficient scripture to both prove and disprove about every doctrine out there depending on the ones you use and how you connect them.
It appears that there is room for a harsh, vindictive, angry and torturous God as well as a God of unconditional love who refuses to lose even one sheep.

Maybe the bottom line is that we have to choose which God it is we know. One of torture, punishment and justice or one of grace forgiveness and unconditional love.
I suppose it can go whatever way we want it to....until we meet Him face to face, that is.
Just a thought.

......back to the show
 
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ClementofA

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My one question is: "if the bible IS the absolute word of God and is the answer to all truth, then why doesn't it just plainly say that this or that is true?

Many would say it does. On both sides of various issues.

God is a God Who hides Himself. Atheists say, "if He's real, why doesn't He just show Himself" (e.g. like He did to doubting Thomas who stubbornly refused to believe in Christ's resurrection, or serial killer/Inquisitionist Saul on the road to Damascus). They say, "then i'd believe". So why do you think He hides? Is He too shy to go public?
 
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Shempster

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Many would say it does. On both sides of various issues.

God is a God Who hides Himself. Atheists say, "if He's real, why doesn't He just show Himself" (e.g. like He did to doubting Thomas who stubbornly refused to believe in Christ's resurrection, or serial killer/Inquisitionist Saul on the road to Damascus). They say, "then i'd believe". So why do you think He hides? Is He too shy to go public?
Haha. You get it.Most excellent.
But then you get to the next progressive question after that: who's theory is correct?
The answer? Mine is. (speaking of us all)
 
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redleghunter

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For the last 30 years of being a Christian, the church has told me that the bible is the complete, inerrant word of God and tells us every last iota of info that we need to lead us to all truth. Yet, it appears to support numerous ideologies in some verses and refutes them in another. And bible teachers say that the opposing views are just misunderstanding scripture.
There is a crop of self appointed theologians who think they have mastered Koine Greek better than 1500 years of scholarship.

Sometimes a theology can revolve around one or a few Hebrew or Greek words.


If the Universalists are right , why preach the Gospel?

If the Annihilationists are right then we should tell God the punishment should fit the crime Sir!
 
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ClementofA

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There is a crop of self appointed theologians who think they have mastered Koine Greek better than 1500 years of scholarship.

All three views - endless torments, annihilation & universalism - have scholars backing their view. Does your 1500 years include the Dark Ages of Crusades, Inquisitions, book & heretic burnings & re-writing of the Early Church Fathers?

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell


If the Universalists are right , why preach the Gospel?

For a couple reasons amongst many:

1) Jesus commanded it.
2) There's still a hell in Scripture & universalism, albeit not an endless tormenting one.

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

If the Annihilationists are right then we should tell God the punishment should fit the crime Sir!

Like this?

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)
 
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rlneub

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Hell – What is it?
• (In the KJV this word occurs in O. T. Scriptures, cited below, and is the translation of the Hebrew word "sheol," which signifies the unseen state)
• In the RSV of O. T. it appears only in
Isaiah 5:14 ; Isaiah 14:9 Isaiah 14:15 ; Isaiah 28:15 Isaiah 28:18 ; 57:9 ; Ezekiel 31:16 Ezekiel 31:17 ; Ezekiel 32:21 Ezekiel 32:27 ; Amos 9:2 ; Jonah 2:2 ; Habakkuk 2:5
• In the RSV, "sheol" is translated "lowest pit"
Deuteronomy 32:22 ; Psalms 86:13
• And it is translated "pit" in
Psalms 55:15
• In the RSV the word "Sheol" itself occurs in the following scriptures
2 Samuel 22:6 ; Job 11:8 ; 26:6 ; Psalms 9:17 ; 16:10 ; 18:5 ; 116:3 ; 139:8 ; Proverbs 5:5 ; 7:27 ; 9:18 ;Proverbs 15:11 Proverbs 15:24 ; 23:14 ; 27:20
• "Sheol" is translated "grave" in KJV in
Genesis 37:35 ; 42:38 ; Genesis 44:29 Genesis 44:31 ; 1 Samuel 2:6 ; 1 Kings 2:6 ; 9 ; Job 7:9 ; 14:13 ; 17:13 ;21:13 ; 24:19 ; Psalms 6:5 ; 30:3 ; 31:17 ; Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:15 ; 88:3 ; 89:48 ; 141:7 ; Proverbs 1:12 ;30:16 ; Ecclesiastes 9:10 ; Solomon 8:6 ; Hosea 13:14
• In the RSV the Greek word "gehenna" is translated "hell" in the following scriptures
Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 ; James 3:6
• The RSV has introduced "Hades," the word found in the Greek text, which signifies the unseen world, in the following scriptures
Matthew 11:23 ; 16:18 ; Luke 10:15 ; 16:23 ; Acts 2:27 Acts 2:31 ; Revelation 1:18 ; 6:8 ; Revelation 20:13; Revelation 20:14

In reading the above texts it would seem that hell is either the Grave (sheol or hades) or Gehenna (unquenchable fire).

In the prior lesson study we learned that when we die on earth we go to the grave and not directly to heaven or hell. So if Hell can also mean the place of unquenchable fire, when does that occur?

Hell – When is it?

There are many verses showing that the final event for the wicked is hellfire but there are very few that show the timeline of when. The best timeline can be found in Rev 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So from these verses we see those who were dead but resurrected at Christ’s coming. This is called the “First Resurrection”. If there was a first then there must be a second. From verse 5 says the rest of the dead (the wicked) did not live again for 1000 years. (The 1000 years is addressed in Rev 20:1-3)

So after the 1000 years we have a second resurrection. What happens after this resurrection is described in Rev 20:7-10

Three other texts support the 2 resurrections. John 5:28-29 says "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION". And again in Luke 14:14 "And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the RESURRECTION OF THE JUST" implying a resurrection of the unjust. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise FIRST.

This is what happens to “the rest of the dead”

Rev 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Notice: The wicked are NOT burning in hell until AFTER the resurrection. There is no one being tortured in hell today. It is not until after the 1000 years and the wicked dead raised and surround the New Jerusalem then fire comes down from God and DEVOURS them.

Matthew 13:39-42 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the END OF THE AGE, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the END OF THIS AGE. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Job 21:30,32 30 For the wicked are RESERVED for the day of doom; They shall be BROUGHT OUT on the day of wrath. 32 Yet he shall be brought to the grave, And a VIGIL kept over the tomb.

2 Peter 2:9 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE THE UNJUST UNTO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO SHALL JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom;

Daniel 1:1-2 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a Time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The wicked do not awaken until after Christ has delivered His people. They awake to everlasting contempt. Thus they were not experiencing everlasting contempt in the grave.

So the timeline looks like this.
1. Christ returns
2. Dead in Christ are resurrected and rise first
3. The living are then caught up to meet with Christ in the air
4. The devil is bound 1000 years on earth
5. During that 1000 years all the righteous reign with Christ
6. The wicked dead are resurrected
7. They are judged Rev 20:11-12
8. They are cast into the lake of fire

Hell – Where is Hell located?

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the EARTH which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Notice the heavens and earth are reserved for fire!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the EARTH and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Again the heavens pass away and the earth melts

Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a NEW EARTH filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the FIRST EARTH had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

The first earth has passed away and God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth

Psalms 46 4 There is a river whose streams shall make glad the city of God,
The holy place of the tabernacle of the Most High.
5 God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved;
God shall help her, just at the break of dawn.
6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved;
He uttered His voice, the earth melted.

Ps 46:6 parallels Rev 20:7-10

Hell – How long will it last?


Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.

Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Ps 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME INTO SMOKE shall they CONSUME AWAY."

PS 37:10 For yet a little while and the wicked SHALL BE NO MORE; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and DEVOURED them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life.

Ez 18:4 "The soul that sinneth, it SHALL DIE."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth DEATH.

Notice the wages is death not eternal life of torment.

1 John 3:15 "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Will the murderers have death or eternal life of suffering?

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Many are troubled over the expression, "everlasting punishment," but notice that it does not say "everlasting punishing."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body ... but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Obadiah 1:15,16 “For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. 16 For as you drank on My holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN.

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

If the penalty for sin is everlasting life of torment, did Jesus pay this penalty? He did die (the wages of sin is death) but if the wages of sin is everlasting torment then He failed in that regard and did not pay the full penalty.

Ez 28:13-19 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I DESTROYED you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it CONSUMED you, and I TURNED YOU TO ASHES on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER.”

Hell – What about Eternal Fire, Worm dieth not, unquenchable fire, Forever and ever?

Jude 6-8 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth AS AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

Question: Are they still burning or did the fire go out? Simply the results of the fire (punishment) is eternal but the punishing is not.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Notice what these texts say – The chaff is burnt up. It is gone. It is burned by a fire that cannot be put out until all is burned up. There is another text which supports this view.

In light of the above, this text in Mark 9:43 will also follow the same logic. "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.

Mark 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.
Some have interpreted the worm to be the soul. Is that what Jesus meant? Nowhere in the Bible is there any allusion to the soul as a worm.

In this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies-a picture of total destruction.

Isaiah 34: 5-10 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness.”
8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

Is Edom still burning? Do we still see its smoke ascending? Is there a section of the earth that men cannot pass through?

This passage, in which God predicts that Edom will be burned by fire forever, has four verbal parallels to Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 as well as the thematic parallel of judgment. The fact that Isaiah 34:9, 10 is the only passage in the Bible with this many parallels to the Revelation passages indicates that the author of Revelation would have us interpret “forever and ever,” when referring to the torment of the wicked, in the context of God’s judgment on Edom.

Hell – What does it say about God?

The bible says

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God IS LOVE.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Romans 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 7:11 God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day.
Isaiah 30:18 [ God Will Be Gracious ] Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.

Isaiah 13:11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Job 37:23 As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Exodus 34:6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,

Deuteronomy 4:31 (for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

Nehemiah 9:17 They refused to obey, And they were not mindful of Your wonders That You did among them. But they hardened their necks, And in their rebellion They appointed a leader To return to their bondage. But You are God, Ready to pardon, Gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, Abundant in kindness, And did not forsake them.

Ezekiel 33:11 As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

How do we reconcile Love, Justice and Mercy with Hell? If God is just then those who break the law are deserving of death, for the wages of sin is death. The bible also says "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "And then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:47, 48.

As God is Just He will punish according to our works. And from Luke it seems that “the punishment will fit the crime”. So now comes the dilemma in Love, Mercy and Justice in regards to Hell.

1. If God is Love then how can he burn a person forever? Would that be more like a sadistic god rather than a Loving God?
2. If God is merciful then where is the mercy on a person who for a few years is against God but then will be tormented by fire for trillions upon trillions of years and after that they have only just begun. Would this be a God of Love and Mercy? Would His subjects worship Him in Love or Fear? What if it was your son, daughter, husband, wife, father or mother in Hell and you were in heaven. Would you be comfortable with them being tortured forever? How can God wipe away every tear if we know what is happening to those we loved but rejected God?
3. If God is Just, then how does the punishment fit the crime? Unending torture for a few years does not sound just. And how does Luke 12:47 & 48 fit into this? Let’s assume that Esau did not repent and thus would be in Hell and then Hitler also went there. Now we know Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths and we do not see in the bible that Esau killed millions. Yet according to some you are in Hell the minute you die and thus Esau would seem to have a longer sentence than Hitler or to those who say all enter Hell at the same time both Esau and Hitler get the same punishment which also does not fit Luke. Where is the justice?

The bible says “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. Luke 9:56. "For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.” Isaiah 28:21.

So what is the solution? God is Love. He cares and loves all His creation. He Loves both Satan and his angels and those of the human race who turned against Him as He is Father of all, both the Just and the Unjust. He cannot let wicked go on forever as that will not satisfy His being Just. He must deliver justice as the wages of sin is death. At the same time these are His children and He is merciful. To punish forever is not merciful. But sin must be eradicated from the universe.

In Hebrews Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might DESTROY him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

In Ezekiel 28:13-19 the bible says “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I DESTROYED you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought FIRE out from your midst; it CONSUMED you, and I TURNED YOU TO ASHES on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER.”

This passage is referring to Lucifer/Satan as he was the covering cherub. It says that Satan will be BURNED, DESTROYED, CONSUMED, TURNED INTO ASHES, and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER. Here we see a Loving God being forced to kill His child to save His other children. By this act, God is Love, in that He saved His children that loved Him from the evil from the child that rebelled. God is Just in that He punished the guilty. God is merciful in that He did not make a punishment go on forever is a sadistic manner.

So if God did this for Lucifer, what does the bible say about what will happen to wicked men?

Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Ps 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME INTO SMOKE shall they CONSUME AWAY."

PS 37:10 For yet a little while and the wicked SHALL BE NO MORE; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and DEVOURED them.

The same wording is used as was applied to Satan. The wicked were BURNED, DESTROYED, CONSUMED, TURNED INTO ASHES, and SHALL BE NO MORE.

In summary, death in Hell satisfies a Loving God who is also Just and Merciful whereas eternal torment is not Loving, Merciful or Just.
 
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Major1

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odd how the uncomfortable truth makes you rude, disrespectful, and fill your posts with pride.

May you discover the truth of God and in that truth discover the joy of living out Christ over the pride and disrespect that Satan is calling all of us to.

Pleassse, STOP it...........YOU are killing me!!!!

According to YOU............
Forever and forever does not mean forever and forever.

Torments does not mean torments.

Fire does not mean fire.

Eternity does not mean eternity and you have the ability to question my understanding all because I rejected your theology.

Annialiation IS NOT a Bible doctrine It is only your inability to read the words of the Bible as they are written.

Get a life my friend!
 
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Major1

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Haha. You get it.Most excellent.
But then you get to the next progressive question after that: who's theory is correct?
The answer? Mine is. (speaking of us all)

My dear friend, I hear what you are saying.

The problem is that when God says something, it must be true as God can not lie.

Now this particular thread on hell is not unique. It boils done to this ONE thing.

"I".....do not like what God said about hell and eternal torment. IHAVE loved ones who died in their sins and I just can not accept that a loving God would punish them eternally in a lake of fire. So, I am going to call God a liar and I am going to work and spend all of my time proving what "I" want to believe.

That my dear friend is where all the different denominations all over the earth stem from.

God said it but :I: do not like what He said so I am going to come up with an alternate teaching.

That is why some denominations accept homosexuality.
That is why some denomination accept abortion.
That is why some denominations accept "Annialationism."

That is the teaching that God does not torment the wicked lost for eternity.

A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines:
1) the consequences of sin,
2) the justice of God,
3) the nature of hell.

Now please read what I am about to post for you. PLEASE do not accept what I say as fact but instead YOU do the work and look it up for yourself........READY???

There are NO Bible verses that support this belief. NONE!
If anyone proposes that God does not have a real place called the "Lake of Fire" where the wicked lost are tormented forever and ever, that are NOT Bible believers but have instead come up with their OWN idea and have rejected Gods.

Yes, it is just that simple. Ask your self these 3 simple questions............

Did God say it?
Can God lie?
Is Hell real?
 
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Major1

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All three views - endless torments, annihilation & universalism - have scholars backing their view. Does your 1500 years include the Dark Ages of Crusades, Inquisitions, book & heretic burnings & re-writing of the Early Church Fathers?

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell




For a couple reasons amongst many:

1) Jesus commanded it.
2) There's still a hell in Scripture & universalism, albeit not an endless tormenting one.

Statement of Faith -- Please Read



Like this?

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time.

However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.”

It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, ......
“Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.
 
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