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Featured The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Achilles6129, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt. Like the rebuilding of a car engine:

    Category:Rebuilt buildings and structures - Wikipedia

    "When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

    As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

    destroy | Definition of destroy in English by Oxford Dictionaries

    A common definition of "destroy":

    "ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
    "he has been determined to destroy her" "

    The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

    The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

    Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

    By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

    A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

    Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

    Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

    And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

    ...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

    American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
    Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

    Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

    But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

    24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

    So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

    Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

    When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

    Statement of Faith -- Please Read
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think that when God gave us a brain that included the ability to "reason" He sat us above the animal world.

    With that ability it seems to me that when God said "Forever and ever", He expected us to understand what that means instead of trying to find a way to explain it away.

    It is like, see that smoke and flame, I reason with my brain that what I am looking at is hot and hot means torment for as long as I leave my hand in the flame.

    Same with water. LOOK......there is a pool of water. My brain say that water is wet and I can not swim. What to do......maybe I will walk around the pool of water and not drown trying to go through it.

    Luke 16:23-25.............
    "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

    I can not help but wondering if there was another way that God could have said that so that we could understand what He meant???

    NOPE! What He said is what He said.
    But that is just me and my old country boy way of thinking.
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Listen friend, I and no one else knows where the "lake of fire" will be.

    You said that hell will not be in the place in which God sits on His throne and tortures people.

    I agree with 1/2 of your comment. The lake of fire will not be on the earth.

    But there IS a place which you can call what you want to call it and wherever it is, people will be tormented and that my friend was my point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Except God didn't say "forever and ever". (And speaking of reason, what could be beyond "forever"?) God said "eis tous aionas ton aionon", literally "into the ages of the ages". Versions which say "forever and ever" have changed what God said to say what man says. Making it into man's opinion, theology & interpretation.

    Chapter Five


    I could only guess what that had to do with my post.

    That's what He said. And?

    Chapter Five - "Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
     
  6. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    All souls belong to God - and all life belongs to God.

    A man has not the power or authority to destroy a soul.

    Gehenna is not hell. Living men have not seen hell, but they did see things that happened in the valley of Hinnom and equated it with hell.

    γέεννα (Gehenna) is the Greek word, for the Hebrew word Gêhinnōm , the valley of Hinnom, outside of Jerusalem; a historical evil, wicked, fire burning children place.


    2 Cor 33
    [6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

    Josh 15
    [8] And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:

    2 Cor 28
    [3] Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What gives you that idea?

    What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

    Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

    If Satan & demons are there in the LOF to possess people, just casting them into the LOF could result in people being psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

    Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Otherwise why would the scriptures speaks of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostasized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

    A related matter to the understanding of Mt.10:28 is the use of the same Greek words for "soul" and "destroy" a few verses later in the context of the same chapter 10 of Matthew:

    Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

    Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

    By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

    A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

    Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

    Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    "The love of God is greater far
    Than tongue or pen can ever tell
    It goes beyond the highest star
    And reaches to the lowest hell"

    "The guilty pair, bowed down with care
    God gave His Son to win
    His erring child He reconciled
    And pardoned from his sin

    Could we with ink the ocean fill
    And were the skies of parchment made
    Were every stalk on earth a quill
    And every man a scribe by trade

    To write the love of God above
    Would drain the ocean dry
    Nor could the scroll contain the whole
    Though stretched from sky to sky

    Hallelujah
    Hallelujah
    Hallelujah

    O love of God, how rich and pure!
    How measureless and strong!"
     
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  12. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  13. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Matt 10
    [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matt 10
    [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Hell is a real place. Heaven is a real place.
    Yet mankind has not the ability to SEE, either place.

    For a Spirit God, to reveal things to mankind, He does so repeatedly, by associating things men CAN SEE, can comprehend, with things that are Spiritual.

    The Valley of Gehenna, has a historical history of evils, wickedness, sorcery, of mankind, of fire, of burning little children, of giants, of things men could see and SHOULD want to avoid, parallel the same as what hell would be like, that men can NOT SEE, until they also reject God, and end up there.

    The body is but dust; it's life is blood, it's thoughts come from the mind, and feelings come from nerves.
    The living soul is mans ability to have senses, thoughts, feelings, emotions, that have nothing to do with the nerves.
    The spirit of a man is his own truth, the thoughts of his heart. It can be kept secret, to himself, even while his mind is conjuring up deception and wickedness.

    These parts of the man, (body, soul, spirit,) and their separate "thoughts", all co-mingle, one part aware of the others thoughts, and how and why, man can struggle within himself, when one part's thoughts is fighting against the other two.

    This was what Paul was speaking of, of his flesh (mind) wanting to do one thing, while his soul and spirit were thinking in a different direction. It is the same struggle every living human man has to contend with, BECAUSE WHILE, the Lord changes our soul, (restored and saved), and births us a new spirit in a new heart (born again), we still remain Flesh and have our minds to contend with; and why the lesson our own to make our own minds subjected to the thoughts of our new spirit; and to succeed, requires one to stay steady in the Word of God.

    You appear to be trying to find a measure of hope for a man IN HELL, (even angels), to be released.

    The passages in Scripture, about AVOIDING hell, are warning to LIVING MEN. They are warnings TO ESCAPE the enviable, BEFORE it is too late; BEFORE the door of opportunity, TO ESCAPE is SHUT.

    There is NO opportunity, for angels, to repent, be forgiven and be saved.
    There is NO opportunity, for a man who, WHILE LIVING on this earth, and bodily dies, while still having REJECTED faith in God, to be forgiven, saved, born again.

    Their LIFE - blood, shall depart their body, when their body dies.
    Their LIFE - living soul, shall have life departed the soul and return to God.
    Their SENTENCE - shall be, body and soul "destroyed" in the LOF.

    Their mind thoughts/feelings are dead.
    Their souls thoughts/feelings are dead.
    Their natural truth' thoughts of all things, (including rejecting God), of their natural body are dead. "THEY" have "NOTHING" living, left of them to FEEL, mindfully, emotionally, nerve-wise, truthfully....zip, nada.

    Their BODY and SOUL destroyed. Which means, you could peek into the LOF, and would NOT SEE, a body or soul, regardless of your being in a natural body or a glorified body.

    Forever their body and soul would never again resemble a body or soul.

    However the FACT is; When God created the Earth- Everything on/in the Earth, has always been here, since God created the Earth. Plastic, Dirt, steel, gold, minerals, ores, water, glass, etc. EVERYTHING! It has simply changed FORMS. You see a TREE, you cut it down, you burn it, you see ash, the ash scatters, you see dust. You say the Tree is destroyed, because you no longer SEE IT. But yet forever it remains upon the earth.

    It is similar to body's and soul's. Except that, body's and soul's that REJECT GOD, shall NOT remain scattered about ON the Earth. They shall be removed FROM the EARTH'S surface and gathered into HELL, continuously burning in the LOF, continuous ASH remaining forever, being purified in a continuous FIRE.

    The Whole point is to eradicate the surface of the EARTH, which was designed as a GOOD habitat for Gods GOOD creation of mankind. Everything has become corrupt, and thus Everything shall be made PURIFIED. Mankind day by day are making their choices to be INTERNALLY, and individually cleansed and purified, (soul and spirit), and all wait patiently, until the day, the Lord returns to collectively CHANGE, ALL such of the faithful's BODY'S. The Earth shall have it's occupants gathered (the faithful sheep, to the air / the unfaithful goats, to hell) thus removed from the Earth, and the Earth itself shall be PURIFIED with Fire. All in preparation for Gods Holy Kingdom on Earth to prevail.

    You appear to want, and advocate what IS NOW, to BE the FUTURE. Men/angels who rejected God, all gathered together with Men/angels who are faithful to God. Angels against God, are already doomed. Men have been given LIFE, spanning the last 6,000 years - information, knowledge, visions, testimonies, secrets revealed, history of experiences, wisdom, understanding, warnings, men-servants of God, missionaries, the Word of God spread across the entire globe, God in the flesh likeness of a man to tell, show by example - AND? basically, you are promoting, that just isn't enough -

    Physically DEAD MEN are DEAD. Their opportunity is lost. It was their own individual choice to not HEED the WARNING, that their TIME was at hand. They chose to ignore to act quickly and secure their own FUTURE. Because if one is NOT WITH the Lord, they are AGAINST the Lord. And inasmuch as the Lord has prepared for those who ARE WITH Him, so too He has prepared for those who ARE AGAINST Him.

    And somehow, you seem to think the Lord, shall Not fulfill His Word, and MAKE men and angels who REJECTED Him, "MAKE" their DEAD BODY and DEAD SPIRIT submit to Him?
    Why?

    Mark 12:
    [27] He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    What is interesting is; You are on a forum for those who ARE supposedly in Standing WITH God, yet are advocating for those who REJECT God. It appears you are trying to get confirmation, for the soothing of yourself, because of others you want them to believe, but they don't, and that pains you. Sorry, but if that is the case, when the door is shut, so too is their opportunity to enter.

    The Lords MARRIAGE, is with HIS WITH His faithful Church, NONE shall enter into His Church AFTER the MARRIAGE.

    Currently the DOOR is still OPEN ~ but for every individual ~ they alone must decide to enter. You can't decide FOR THEM. Neither does the Lord decide FOR THEM. The Lord Himself IS the DOOR and all entering MUST become His Sheep, go THROUGH Him.

    John 10
    [7] Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
    [9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    Matt 25
    [10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

    Luke 13
    [25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    Luke 11
    [7]
    And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

    Teach what the TRUTH IS, not what you want it to be.


    God Bless,
    SBC
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is correct as far as it goes but Ge Hinnom, which literally means the valley of Hinnom, was in fact the name Jews used for hell.
    .....According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus, was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    .....Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must not have required correcting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  15. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    well either I typed something I didn't know I typed, someone hacked my computer and typed something I didn't say, or you misunderstood because I said or at least did not intend to say anything about where hell is, in fact, that assertion totally confuses me and what I was saying. What we do know from Rev. is ....Revelation 14:10
    he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

    But the point I was making is that God isn't a torturer like some try to paint Him because they do NOT like hell. He isn't sitting somewhere on His throne torturing people in hell...that isn't what scripture says. Just because the pain and suffering of hell is torment does NOT mean that God is a torturer. That is the point! In fact, the Law is what condemns some to hell, not God. God is the judge that hands out the sentence, the Law is the one that condemns....not God. That is the point! So how about addressing the point rather than reading into it what is not there?

    See, I understood your point and addressed it...where hell is torment it is not a place God uses to torture people, like a torture chamber rather it is a place that the law demands, the consequence of sin not a torture chamber as many try to paint a picture of. So If I can respond to your point, maybe out of courtesy you could respond to mine without trying to add something that isn't there?
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    In comment #1464 you said................
    "I laid out several ways we know that hell is the consequence of sin not the place in which God sits on His throne and tortures people for all of eternity and all you can respond is passages that talk about hell?"

    If that was not your intentions, my apologies but it seemed to me that you were comparing the consequences of sin to the LOCATION of where those consequences would take place.......
    "NOT THE PLACE!""

    Then in #1475 you just said...........
    "Just because the pain and suffering of hell is torment does NOT mean that God is a torturer. That is the point."

    EXACTLY! Again you are posing a place with an action.

    You are saying again and again that GOD does not torment those lost people in hell.

    But the Bible says something different my dear brother.

    Rev. 14:9-11.................
    "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name".
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  17. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    lol as I said not the point I was making and I clarified my point after accepting that it could be a miscommunication for either of us or both of us...so do you want to address my point or continue to go back and forth in some prideful display of "superiority" over ineffective communication that has already been addressed?
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    What you are trying to do is obviouse. IT is very common and has been going on for years or as you say...Ages and Ages".

    YOU personally do not like the idea of friends and loved ones being tormented in the Lake of Fire FOREVER.

    I got that brother! I am of the same thought!!!!

    I have many family and friends who are lost right now. But I can not sit and come up with explanations and excuses to explain away the actual words written in the Bible that describe Hell.
    These questions have lead some to want to erase the idea of hell because it is too frightening to accept. I AGREE!!!!

    However, many years ago one of my professors told us the way to accept the Scriptures as exactly what God wanted to say and for us to know.

    1. Did God say it?????
    2. Can God lie???????
    3. Is Hell real???????

    Now you can make all of the cute little comments and insults that you choose to do because the truth is I do not care one little bit. So, have a good time on me.

    Heb. 9:27.............
    "it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement".

    In other words, the moment you die, before your body even enters the grave, your eternal fate is sealed. You will either go to heaven or hell, forever!

    The thought is "A loving God wouldn't put his creatures in hell."

    Well I have news for you, friend, God is loving and he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (II Peter 3:9). Hell is for the devil and his angels, and all the rebels that want to break God's laws on this earth-- Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Your way of sarcastic communication to others is not my style so I will say good day to you at this time.
     
  20. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    no sarcasm, you can either continue to try to justify a miscommunication or you can address the point I was making as it was clarified to you...your choice but beating a dead horse is unproductive so that needs to stop.
     
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