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you have been told this from the beginning but you still don't understand it according to your posts and your consistent avoidance of the passages that show you wrong...so your mocking here only shows your ignorance of what is being said and nothing more...well, I take that back, it also shows your unwillingness to consider what scripture really does say on that matter.Finnally!! You get it!! It is eternal life and eternal death----life, death. Great!
Now, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.
Anyways, if ECT was true, the verse would say,
"And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss."
(Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).
In fact, no verse in Scripture says that the wicked have eternal life or immortality.
But assumptions are made whereby it turns God into being some kind of non-stop angry kind of God who is beyond any kind of fair justice.
But what about the loving God who is long suffering and not willing that any should PERISH? What about the God who so loved the world?
amen, well saidWell, we know that death does not mean utter extinction since our first, physical death is followed by a second death. Scripture often uses terms like "death," "destruction," "perish" and "destroy" to describe ruination, or a total loss of well-being, or being rendered powerless or separated from something, not annihilation. We know also that since the second death is to be a punishment, and punishments entail consciousness, the second death cannot mean "annihilation." However, then, you want to read 2 Thessalonians 1:9, you are prevented from reading the "everlasting destruction" of which it speaks as "annihilation."
But Christ does speak of the flames eternal Hell in other places:
Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:8
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
Why would the fire need to be everlasting if it annihilates those who are cast into it? Surely, the fires of Hell should only last as long as it takes to annihilate the unrepentant wicked - if annihilation is true. But the apostle John writes,
Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Ah, so at least some of those cast into Hell will suffer in it forever. This, it seems to me, seriously weakens the idea of the second death being annihilation and strengthens the idea that the "second death" actually means "ruination, or the total loss of well being."
In any case, it is unreasonable to argue that the absence of an explicit description of just the sort that you would like means ECT is not intended. If we handled Scripture this way, the Trinitarian nature of God could be rejected, too.
No verse in Scripture declares the Godhead a Trinity, either. No verse explicitly forbids locking your grandmother in a closet for a week, or poking out the eyes of stray cats, but we know these are acts that are wrong, that God would reject as evil, nonetheless. In the case of ECT, there are many verses which, at the very least, clearly imply the immortality of the wicked.
This is a Strawman. I don't think of God in anything like the way you've described Him here. I believe the Bible clearly teaches ECT, but I don't think of God as angry in the way a human person is angry. God isn't human - obviously - so working from human behaviour to divine behaviour is a BIG mistake. If God is angry, it is in a perfectly appropriate way, utterly devoid of the things that make our anger less than righteous and good. And ECT isn't a testament to God's unfairness but to the terrible vileness of our sin. Really, what is unreasonable is a sinner expecting that a perfectly pure and holy God should take his view of what proper, "fair" punishment of sin should be!
What about Him? ECT does not preclude or deny such a God. There is salvation for all who would take it. God does love the World. But His love is bounded by His moral uprightness, His perfect purity, which is why we need salvation in the first place!
Romans 2:4-10
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
God rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. Love that turns a blind eye to sin, that lets the wicked off scot-free, that neglects to judge and punish evil, is not really love.
Selah.
Yes that's what Jesus said. However he separated it. Eternal life is given to the beleiver. Eternal punishment given to the unbeliever.I am still waiting for the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost. Where does it say--everyone gets eternal life, the only thing that is different is the environment?
Not necessarily. In addition to Luke 16:19-31, in Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc."For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."
Yes---we are mortal, and Jesus gives immortality to the saved. This is to the saved not to the lost.
Np--that has been discussed several times--0where is the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost---I posted all those verses that says eternal life is for the saved.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
We have eternal life in us as a gift from God which will be given us at the resurrection, those who are alive at that time will be changed in a twinkling of an eye.
Mt 25:46 ...........
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Yes, eternal life---to the saved----everlasting punishment--gone over that to--only until the earth is made new. The heavens and the earth are remade and there is no more pain or suffering after that.
2 Thess 1:9 .........
"these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord
Yes---destroyed forever!
Mt 25:41............
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
Gone over---Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning---
Jude 13 ..........
"for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"
Yes---nothingness for the lost---zero--zip, zilch--eternal nothingness, eternal death, eternal nonlife---noever anything that says eternal life is given to the lost.
You are mistaken! I did not bold anything in the post you quoted. This is bold. The rest is normal text. I use a slightly larger font so I can see it better. To say something that was posted is a lexical or logical fallacy is not a personal attack.Please do not use bold type and say people are "wrong" and use words like "fallacy." It makes it appear like you are yelling and or that you are angry (Whether that is your emotional state during writing or not). Also, lets stick with Scripture please, too.
In any event, may God's love shine upon you.
...
you have repeatedly been told that and then we further added and showed in scripture what you fail to address, that the non believer has eternal torment not eternal life. Seriously, it isn't that hard to follow the conversation whether you agree or not it's rude and inflammatory to pretend that you aren't following something so simple as the difference between eternal life/in Gods presence and eternal death/torment/separation from God1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The saved have eternal life abiding in him, we will be resurrected to eternal life. The lost do not and will not have eternal life.
My testimony is written in my profile for public display. And as far as your judgment concerning how much bible study I've done???? Let me just say that your discernment hasn't impressed me so far anyway. But you're still the new guy here.
That sounds like you're half way there then. Since I have both 'a belief' as well as 'understanding' to go along with my belief.
Assurance is often confused with arrogance, but I do feel smarter for a number of truths that I believe God has led me to in my life. But especially so concerning the carnal minded doctrines once held dear because of fear, ignorance...or sometimes both. But most of all is this one where God's pregame plan was so dumb He ends up losing, to the devil he created in His omniscience, almost all those whom He loves and whom Jesus died for. A loss, from the tenor of your ECT posts, which really doesn't bother you as much as your FSU loss last week.
Depends upon your translation, and even then we're not sure. Since Jesus never spoke Latin or Greek, and there are no original authographs. A fate which leaves us most dependent upon those who authored the hundreds of NT translations that exist out there.
This verse is a good example of that transnational tweaking, which leads the indoctrinated. Since the Greek word ODUNAO in this verse (and next) is only in the NT 4 times, why don't we let scripture reveal how it's used in its two other contexts.
Luke 2:48 And, having seen him, they were amazed, and his mother said unto him, 'Child, why didst thou thus to us? lo, thy father and I, sorrowing/ODUNAO, were seeking thee.'
Gee, here's Joseph and Mary TORMENTED as they were seeking Jesus. Sounds like the testimony of a lot of brethren I've known over the decades. Only real difference is, they were the ones lost and the shepherd Jesus just hadn't found them yet. What was that definition of sin again???? My shepherd is going to win, and not fall short in the gospel plan of the ages.
Acts 20:38 sorrowing/ODUNAO most of all for the word that he had said - that they are about no more to see his face; and they were accompanying him to the ship.
And here it is for the last time. Used to describe the TORMENTED disciples who weren't going to see Paul again. Sounds like the FLAME you want to eternally ascribe to most of the human creation isn't quite as hot as you and the ECT crowd imagine....Thank God.
Finnally!! You get it!! It is eternal life and eternal death----life, death. Great!
you have repeatedly been told that and then we further added and showed in scripture what you fail to address, that the non believer has eternal torment not eternal life. Seriously, it isn't that hard to follow the conversation whether you agree or not it's rude and inflammatory to pretend that you aren't following something so simple as the difference between eternal life/in Gods presence and eternal death/torment/separation from God
you have repeatedly been told that and then we further added and showed in scripture what you fail to address, that the non believer has eternal torment not eternal life. Seriously, it isn't that hard to follow the conversation whether you agree or not it's rude and inflammatory to pretend that you aren't following something so simple as the difference between eternal life/in Gods presence and eternal death/torment/separation from God
??????? I think you need to retype this so I can understand what you want to say...if I figured out the code, We have looked multiple times at the scriptures that say talk about the second death...here are a few of the passages you have been presented....You can not have eternal conscious torment unless you are alive----You hjave never provi deda verser thst says desth is sepeion from God. That is made up thology.
see all the above passages and if you are willing to offer a rebuttal let me know we can build as scripture tells us to, precept by precept.You have yet to provide a verse that states death is separation from God. Death is death---not life. What is so hard to understand about that? When we die the breath, soul, goes back to God. When resurrected, He gives it back. At the 2nd death it goes back to Him, permanently.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The saved have eternal life abiding in him, we will be resurrected to eternal life. The lost do not and will not have eternal life.
been there done that, as the joke about computers goes, "have you tried turning it off and on again?"I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.
I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.
You can not have eternal conscious torment unless you are alive----You hjave never provi deda verser thst says desth is sepeion from God. That is made up thology.
You have yet to provide a verse that states death is separation from God. Death is death---not life. What is so hard to understand about that? When we die the breath, soul, goes back to God. When resurrected, He gives it back. At the 2nd death it goes back to Him, permanently.
You are mistaken! I did not bold anything in the post you quoted. This is bold. The rest is normal text. I use a slightly larger font so I can see it better. To say something that was posted is a lexical or logical fallacy is not a personal attack.
mmksparbud said:I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.
I'm assuming that since you refuse to address any of the points made in rebuttal of your position and just insist on repeating your opinions as if they hold weight when myself and others have challenged them and you refuse to even acknowledge that it was addressed that that really means you don't have a response because what we speak is truth and you are too prideful to confess it...I mean that would be the logical conclusion and you are all about logic, right? Even if it is flawed logic?First, the majority of God's Word does not specifically say that the wicked will burn alive in flames for all time. Revelation 14:10-11 is the only passage that appears to say that at first glance (of which I explain below). Inferences or assumptions are made based on the words used (without looking how those words are used elswhere in Scripture).
Second, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth.
But how can the words like "forever" and "everlasting" be used in a temporal sense?
Well, in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.
For it says,
"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).
This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,
15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).
In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means.
But what about words like "for ever and ever"? Surely this must be talking about an endless eternity, right? Again, this would not be true according to the Bible. For Jeremiah 7 says,
"Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." (Jeremiah 7:7).
Are we to assume that certain faithful Old Testament saints will dwell in the land here upon this Earth forever and ever while the rest of the saints dwell upon the New Earth? Surely not. "For ever and ever" is used in context to how long that promise will be fulfilled and will last (i.e. which would be with the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ).
Are you still not convinced?
There are other examples where the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.
Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.
It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.
In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”
Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php
Side Note:
But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.
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