The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Butch5]

Do you believe there will one day be a separate and different New Heavens and New Earth from this one (after the Millennium)? Meaning, do you believe there will be a completely new and different planet for the saints?

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No, i don't. The land is Christ's inheritance. That is this earth, not another one. Peter said that Christ awaits the restoration of all things. Paul said,

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:19-21 NKJ)

God said, 'behold I make all things new.'

 

[Butch5]

Hope that clears up any confusion. You are kidding us, right????

Your comment of......"And according to 'orthodoxy' that price is eternal hell" is so far from truth that I am actually embarrassed for you to have said such a thing.

No where is it said or even mentioned that God's demand for the payment of mans sin be that Jesus would be sitting in hell as you just stated.

Romans 3:25 tells us that the price that had to be paid was BLOOD. The only thing that god would accept was the BLOOD...........speaking of Christ the Scriptures say clearly,
"Whom God hath set forth to be the propitiation through faith IN HIS BLOOD to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past through the forbearance of God".

No wonder you come up with so much un-biblical comments and opinions. You simply do not understand the Scriptures.

The only way God deals with our sin is through the blood of the Lamb of God and not Jesus sitting in hell.

Levitucus 17:11.........
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life."

My dear friend. The shed blood of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ satisfied the demand of God for righteousness.

This is why Jesus killed the animals in the Garden of Eden. Blood had to be shed to cover the sin of Adam and Eve.
This is why blood from a sacrifice was applied to the door posts at the 1st Passover. Blood had to be shed.

In the Scriptures, the means of atonement was the offering of a bloody sacrifice. God is seen providing the sacrifice and man performing the rite. Man is not seen initiating the relationship, but God. God made the provision for sin in an act of grace. The shedding of blood is the central action in making atonement for sin. This theme is developed through out the Scriptures.

What that means my friend is that every bloody sacrifice made in the Old Test. was pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who would shed His blood for all of humanity that by faith would believe upon Him as their Saviour.

It's interesting that you posted this passage from Leviticus. It says, 'the life of the flesh is in the blood'. The word that is translated "life" in this passage is the word "soul". The passage literally says, 'the soul of the flesh is in the blood.' Jesus shed His blood for the sins of man. Isaiah said that Jesus gave His soul for sins.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.1
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isa. 53:10-12 KJV)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, i don't. The land is Christ's inheritance. That is this earth, not another one. Peter said that Christ awaits the restoration of all things. Paul said,

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:19-21 NKJ)

God said, 'behold I make all things new.'

The creation like the rocks and water and stuff are not alive. For rocks and water cannot eagerly await the manifestion of the sons of God. But animals or the creature sure can.

“For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” (Romans 8:19-23).

Where are the creatures eagerly awaiting the manifestions of the sons of God? Most likely they are eagerly awaiting in Abraham's bosom or paradise within the heart of the Earth, i.e. the realm of the dead, or Sheol. So will Christian pet owners (who have died) see their treasured dead pets? You betcha.


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[Der Alte]

That's a rather bold statement coming from someone who has yet to make a logical argument. No matter how you try you can't make the case for eternal torment. The word quench means to extinguish. Jesus said the wicked would suffer aionios punishment. This is translated a everlasting.
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46 NKJ)
A few verses prior He said what that aionios punishment would be.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matt. 25:41 NKJ)
So, the aionios punishment is aionios fire. Lets see if that is everlasting.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)
Sodom and Gomorrah are an example, they suffered aionios fire. Can anyone see Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? NO! If you go over to the middle east are they still there on fire? NO! They are burned up. Thus aionios fire is "NOT" burning eternally. Thus "aionios" does "NOT" means eternal.
Your argument is based on a poor translation of the word aionios.

Your argument is based on faulty reasoning. The word translated "example" means "a thing shown, a specimen of any thing, example, pattern." An example is not exactly like the real thing. The entire world is finite there is nothing eternal in this world which could be used to illustrate "eternal."
As for aionios it appears you have fallen victim to internet pseudo-scholars.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.
αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον
- Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios[/indent]

 

[Hillsage]

My dear brother in Christ. Please allow me to say to you that you being unimpressed by me means absolutely nothing to me whatsoever. I do not do this to impress anyone. I do it to get out the Word of God which is contained in The Bible.

Then you shouldn't be having such a problem with brethren who disagree with you, and are doing the very same thing you are.

If you do not like what I post, no problem with me as your problem is not with me but with the Word of God itself.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I have been at this a long time, granted not here on this site but nonetheless, a very long time.

We're both the same age, so I'm pretty sure if you've actually 'been at it longer' than I, you certainly haven't proven to me that you've 'been at it better'. Because I too have talked to a lot of orthodox indoctrinated brethren in the 40+ years since I was first exposed to 'the UR GOSPEL' which none of you really know. I say that because your posts keep proving one thing above all; A man who 'knows only' his position doesn't really even 'know 'that. I've 'known' your position, but pursuit of God changed my fear of thinking contrary to the false 'traditions and commandments of men'....to fearing HIM instead.

The truth is simply that nothing I say is going to affect you. Now you will probably become irritated at what I post but then again that is exactly what the Holy Spirit does when men are faced with the truth of God's Word.

Amen brother I absolutely agree with every word, because; "As iron sharpens iron" And since coming here, so shortly ago, I've noticed that the holy spiritual fruit of your early on 'kind, gentle grandfatherly colored posts' surely seems to be a bit unripened, when squeezed. Welcome to the 'Controversial Forum' BTW.

Now as for my "terror" at eternal torments compared to FSU's loss. My friend, I have NO terror at all concerning the eternal torments coming to the lost. I am not going to be involved in anyway with them.

So this is your 'waffling' non response to my illuminating of your TORMENT/ODUNAO verse???? If you never had a wake up light on even that, then I am concerned for you my brother.

AND, if you truly "have no terror" concerning your belief in "eternal torments", then do you not reveal a heart far from the heart of God. And you'd be doing so, whether that doctrine is true OR false IMO. Maybe you know absolutely no one, to even relate to, who is going to suffer such sadistic and horrific tortures as those that will be met out by a God treating people worse than some cosmic Hitler running an eternal Auschwitz. That thought alone would certainly cause me 'concern'. And not just for those I know personally, but also for almost every 'condemned' human being GOD ever created...and loves. I can only say I'd commune with my heart on my bed tonight if I'd spoken such words as you've posted!!!

My loss was that my nephew, age 42 had a blood clot while watching that game and died leaving 2 children and a wife behind. He was a graduate of FSU as was his wife and it is a real tragedy fro my family.

My sincere condolences for your loss. You never indicated it was anything more than 'a sports game loss' so I'm truly sorry for any offense you may have taken. But I do hope for you to know that no offense was ever intended to be given, with my words.

 

[Der Alte]

I never said anything about how you were making a personal attack against me. I was merely saying you sounded angry in your post (Whether that was true or not - I do not know).

There is nothing anyone could say on these forums, with the possible exception of calling me vulgar names, that would make me angry.

But would you not agree that people respond better to the carrot instead of the stick? Meaning, it doesn't hurt to throw in some loving words towards your oponents every now and then.

Yes.

Also, people do not like hearing the word "wrong." It is not a diplomatic word. Yes, in some cases the use of this word is necesary (to show someone the error of their sin or if they are ignoring of morality in their beliefs in some way), but it should not be used as a means of normal discourse (Especially with an exclamation point following it).

I think misrepresenting what I said and meant merited the word "wrong."

As for the bolded text: how can you read other people's posts that are smaller?
Anyways, if you are new (or unskilled) with computers and you need help in adjusting the text on your computer, I can help with that if you just PM me about it.

I am fairly knowledgeable about computers, getting my start with Sperry and Wang in 1983. I have tried enlarging but the entire page enlarges and goes off the screen. Actually my first experience in the IT world was with a CPT8000. How do I deal with the smaller text of other posts? With difficulty.

In any event, may God bless you.
And may His goodness be upon you.
...

Thank you. May the Lord bless you and keep you, may the Lord lift up His countenance unto to you, may the Lord make His face to smile upon you and give you Shalom. You should hear me say that in Hebrew. I impressed an Israeli Jew, selling radio controlled helicopters in a mall, recently saying that.

 

[Butch5]

Your argument is based on faulty reasoning. The word translated "example" means "a thing shown, a specimen of any thing, example, pattern." An example is not exactly like the real thing. The entire world is finite there is nothing eternal in this world which could be used to illustrate "eternal."
As for aionios it appears you have fallen victim to internet pseudo-scholars.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.
αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον
- Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios[/indent]

No, it's not based on faulty reasoning. The reasoning is sound. They are an example, they suffered aionios fire. That fire is "NOT" still burning therefore aionios "CANNOT" mean eternal. I am well aware of the Lexicons and other works that claim aionios means eternal. However, the "BIBLE" makes it clear that they are wrong. People read their theology into the Bible. People impose their theology onto their commentaries. People impose their theology onto their lexicons.

The way a lexicon is made is by looking at all of the usages of a word and coming to a definition that fits those usages. People read passages that speak of things of God being aionios. For instance God's mercy is aionios. They deduce from that that since God is eternal, His mercy must be eternal, therefore, aionios must mean eternal. The problem is that it is clearly used of finite periods of time. The root aion means an age. If a definition doesn't fit with the Scriptures it's wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is nothing anyone could say on these forums, with the possible exception of calling me vulgar names, that would make me angry.

Yes.

I think misrepresenting what I said and meant merited the word "wrong."

I am fairly knowledgeable about computers, getting my start with Sperry and Wang in 1983. I have tried enlarging but the entire page enlarges and goes off the screen. Actually my first experience in the IT world was with a CPT8000. How do I deal with the smaller text of other posts? With difficulty.

Thank you. May the Lord bless you and keep you, may the Lord lift up His countenance unto to you, may the Lord make His face to smile upon you and give you Shalom. You should hear me say that in Hebrew. I impressed an Israeli Jew, selling radio controlled helicopters in a mall, recently saying that.

Well, I am glad you were not angry. That makes me feel good to know that. I have been called vulgar names before on another Christian forum a long time ago. But I realize that is a part of being a Christian and my goal is to love in return (for any wrong anyone may do towards me).

As for your computer career: That is very fascinating.

As for your text size problem: Have you tried these options?

https://askleo.com/how_can_i_make_the_text_on_my_screen_larger/

https://sourceforge.net/projects/magnifier/
http://listoffreeware.com/list-best-free-screen-magnifiers/

As for the kind words: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. May the best blessings from God be upon you.

As for the Jew you encountered: Thank you for sharing.

Peace be with you.
And please be well in the Lord always.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

Why are you asking what I already stated? I already said, and every single one of those verses will state----sin is separation from God, from which you can come back when you repent. As those verses about Israel attest to. When they repented. God no longer hid Himself from them. Death is the soul goes bsck to God from whence it came.
OK---0I am going to have to clean and shut down again---0I can't go back to correct mistakes---this site is messing up my computer.

okay, now then another poster posted additional passages as well. Now, the unbeliever is dying in their sin that is why they are being sent to hell, that means they are still separated from God.

I did a whole post about this some time ago on this thread and you didn't seem to think it necessary to address anything I said, so here is another person who is saying the same thing, maybe you will better understand what is being said from someone else. http://www.gotquestions.org/separation-from-God.html

As previously talked about, what we know for sure is that all things God come from God and as such they are void in hell. Whereas all evil is void in heaven that is why for the believer there will be no more tears, no more suffering but for the unbeliever there will be torment. Just think about everything that is good being absent from your life...that would be torment, right? Now imagine everything evil being absent from your life....see, by confessing that scripture says that sin separates man from God you acknowledge hell is eternal separation from God without ever knowing you made the fatal mistake of admitting what you don't claim to believe.

 

[razzelflabben]

First, the majority of God's Word does not specifically say that the wicked will burn alive in flames for all time. Revelation 14:10-11 is the only passage that appears to say that at first glance (of which I explain below). Inferences or assumptions are made on the words used within a select few small verses (without looking at how those words are used elsewhere in Scripture).

this is an out and out lie as many here on the eternal torment side have openly and willingly looked at both sides of the issue.

Second, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth.

check context

 

[razzelflabben]

New doesn't mean different. You see, in modern American when people say a new one, they often mean a different one. However, the word new doesn't mean different. However, the Greek word also means fresh. We see in the Scriptures that God will make a new heavens and new earth. Many people think this means that God is going to destroy the present ones and created different ones. However, that's not the case. Peter said,

hum...so you are then going with the Ezekiel verse means that man does not have a heart or a spirit until they come to the point of salvation at which time God gives them both a "new" heart and spirit, but neither is really new, just "fresh"...care if I laugh at this point at how far removed from literary comprehension rules that really is?

As too the new heaven and earth, I already put forth a post about how scripture does not tell us when hell was created to start out with and that all we know about it's creation or recreation thereof is that both death and the bosom of Abraham/hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Nothing more is said about it as to createdness....to infer that it is recreated or any other such non sense is pure speculation and that equals not convincing from a biblical standpoint. Since you did not refute anything in that post I made about the creation of hell I will assume that you didn't refute it because you can't and your beliefs about hell's creation are simply your imagination.

19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before1,
21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
(Acts 3:19-21 NKJ)

yep, God will reconcile all things to Himself...since hell was created for Satan and the demons, what is there to reconcile? Hell is said in scripture to be used for the very purpose it was created, that is reconciled, or made for it's purpose. Not sure how you think this passage justifies your imagination of what scripture says, but cool passage anyway.

The new heavens and the new earth are a restored heavens and earth. They are made new or fresh.

actually, the passage says they are reconciled or restored, but that is a different matter.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me1, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." (Rev. 21:3-5 NKJ)

Notice He said, "I make all things new."

see above, if you can't refute what I showed in scripture about the creation and recreation of hell we will just assume that is because you can't and you are holding to your traditions out of pride and hard heartedness...otherwise you would have addressed the points previously made according to scripture not inferred belief so that your position can remain firmly embedded in your heart.

The passage in Ezekiel is talking about the resurrection which can be seen in the promises and the following chapter 37. So, Even if the passage did refer to a different spirit we see that in the Resurrection that God will bring their bodies out of the grave and once again put into them the breath or spirit of life. Remember the breath or spirit of life returned to God when they died. At the resurrection they will received God's spirit or breath of life again.

hum...that then would mean they have one to begin with, something you have been refusing to accept. You see, you just confessed in this paragraph that man has an eternal spirit that God gave him...according to you, it returns to God, then God returns it back to man...now I could refute this but first you must see what you just said....you just confessed that man has an eternal spirit, that is a spirit that returns to God and then God gives back to him...we will talk about all that giving and taking back later when you grasp that you yourself have said in this post.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, that's not at all what I believe. Not sure how you got that from the post. I absolutely believe he is the sacrificial lamb, and have posted such and backed his sacrifice, not only for we who believe, but those who haven't yet;

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He paid the price due us, for sin. And according to 'orthodoxy' that price is eternal hell, or according to others here, it is 'annihilation'. So if 'that' is the price we're to pay, if we don't accept Him, then why didn't he ever pay that price? Why isn't he 'sitting in eternal hell' or floating with emails in 'annihilation space', paying 'the price' in our place??? The reason He isn't, is because 'they' were never the price to begin with, except in the doctrines of carnal minded men seeking political/religious control over the world.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

He isn't because He is God and therefore resurrected. Remember I Cor. 15:55 or Matt. 5:17 or Acts 2:24

 

[razzelflabben]

No, it's not based on faulty reasoning. The reasoning is sound. They are an example, they suffered aionios fire. That fire is "NOT" still burning therefore aionios "CANNOT" mean eternal. I am well aware of the Lexicons and other works that claim aionios means eternal. However, the "BIBLE" makes it clear that they are wrong. People read their theology into the Bible. People impose their theology onto their commentaries. People impose their theology onto their lexicons.

The way a lexicon is made is by looking at all of the usages of a word and coming to a definition that fits those usages. People read passages that speak of things of God being aionios. For instance God's mercy is aionios. They deduce from that that since God is eternal, His mercy must be eternal, therefore, aionios must mean eternal. The problem is that it is clearly used of finite periods of time. The root aion means an age. If a definition doesn't fit with the Scriptures it's wrong.

Lexicon...
the vocabulary of a person, language, or branch of knowledge:

Websters...lexicon..

1. : a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions : dictionary
   
   
2. 2a : the vocabulary of a language, an individual speaker or group of speakers, or a subjectb : the total stock of morphemes in a language
   

IOW's the Lexicon is basically a dictionary of Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic words...notice nothing at all about some of the non sense you are claiming. But if you really want to challenge the Lexicon I can see if my husband has time to look at the words for you, he is quite busy but has training in ancient Geek and Hebrew. I'm guessing you would just find and excuse to dismiss what he tells you to since that is the emerging pattern in your posts.

 

[razzelflabben]

The creation like the rocks and water and stuff are not alive. For rocks and water cannot eagerly await the manifestion of the sons of God. But animals or the creature sure can.

“For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” (Romans 8:19-23).

Where are the creatures eagerly awaiting the manifestions of the sons of God? Most likely they are eagerly awaiting in Abraham's bosom or paradise within the heart of the Earth, i.e. the realm of the dead, or Sheol. So will Christian pet owners (who have died) see their treasured dead pets? You betcha.


...
‭‭

Luke 19:40 He answered, "I tell you, if they were to keep silent, the stones would cry out!"

 

[aiki]

"I gave a comprehensive - though not exhaustive - answer. I offered many verses from both the Old and New Testaments that plainly indicate the idea of an immaterial soul that survives the death of the physical body.

Do they indicate it or is it your interpretation of those passages that indicates it? You're bringing the same argument the others did. None of these passages states that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. That means you're drawing inferences from what you read."

As I pointed out before, drawing inferences is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Homicide detectives do this all the time. So do scientists and historians. All of the passages clearly imply an immaterial soul that lives on after death. Since I don't have a vested interest - as you do - in denying these clear implications, I can read them in a straightforward manner that requires none of the fancy footwork you're reduced to in your attempts to dismiss them.

That you've posted these passages as support for the idea that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body shows that you believe that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. Since these passages don't state that you must have come to the text with that idea already.

I'm afraid your reasoning here is a non sequitur. As I just explained, homicide detectives work from inferences all the time - but that doesn't mean they have the murder they're investigating all worked out already. Making an inference doesn't necessarily require having a view to which one conforms what is implied.

So, the premise is that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. The evidence is passages from which you've "inferred" that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. The conclusion is that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body.

Nope. The verses clearly imply an immaterial soul that survives death so I believe that there is such a thing. It's no more complicated than that.

You really don't understand the Circular Reasoning Fallacy! Scientists often come to the work of science having already formed a hypothesis. They do empirical research to see if their hypothesis is valid. If they find that their research confirms their hypothesis, they are not accused of circular reasoning, but of proving their hypothesis. So, if someone comes to the Bible with a pre-existing notion, a hypothesis, about an immaterial soul and they study the Bible and discover the clear implication of such a thing in it, they are not guilty of circular reasoning but of confirming their hypothesis! Only when someone says, "I believe in an immaterial soul because immaterial souls exist and I know they exist because I believe they do," are they guilty of circular reasoning.

The passages you posted don't state what you claim. Therefore you've inferred your idea from them. People interpret the texts based on their presuppositions. I'll bet that before you became a Christian you believed that there was some part of man that lived on after death. Is that correct? If so, then that presupposition is being brought to the Biblical texts rather that being drawn from them.

It doesn't matter what my presuppositions might have been if they coincide with what Scripture plainly indicates. Every reader brings a collection of ideas and experiences to their reading of the biblical text. Even you. In some instances, those ideas must be altered; in others, they must be abandoned; there are times, though, when a person's ideas and experiences are confirmed by Scripture. It is not always that a presupposition is forced upon the text of the Bible by a reader. That has to be shown, not merely asserted, as you are doing.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Revelation is a book full of symbolism. Since you claim is that this passage proves that there is some part of man that lives on after the death of the body, you need to prove that that is possible. Since the dead are dead this is obviously figurative language. After all, these are martyrs and the definition of a martyr is one who has died.

The Revelation is a highly figurative book - at times. Not all that is revealed in it, though, is figurative or symbolic. There are many things the apostle John writes of in his revelation that may be taken quite literally. John writes of angels, of Christ, of God, of heaven and divine judgment poured out on wicked humanity. These are not figures or symbols, stand-ins for other things. So, it is not reasonable to simply dismiss a portion of the Revelation as symbolic whenever it contradicts what you want to believe. You must do more to justify dismissing the martyred saints as symbolic than you have done. "The book is symbolic" hardly constitutes a good reason to think the saints crying out are figurative. What are they symbolic of? Why would figurative beings be having a conversation with a real Being? Why would God respond to the cries of non-literal beings? What do their being clothed in white robes symbolize? And so on. As far as I'm concerned, in the passage in Revelation 14, the reader is perfectly justified in thinking the martyred saints are actually martyred saints, that they do really cry out, and that God really does answer them. Certainly, nothing in the passage itself forbids such a simple, straightforward reading.

I need to prove it is possible for the soul to survive beyond the death of the body? What do you mean by "prove"? How have you "proved" the soul does not do so? You have done exactly what I have done and have argued from Scripture for your view. How, then, is your view more "proved" than mine? As I've demonstrated, there are many Bible verses and passages that clearly indicate an immaterial soul that survives beyond death. Your above attempt to refute one of them has been entirely unsuccessful. It doesn't look to me, then, like you have held yourself to your own standard and have "proved" your view that there is no immaterial soul that survives the death of the body.

"The dead are dead"? The physical body is dead but, as Scripture shows, that does not mean the immaterial soul has ceased to be as well. Your conclusion that it must be figurative language that is used in describing the martyred saints because "the dead are dead" is the very sort of Begging the Question you have repeatedly objected to! Your conclusion assumes the veracity of your premise. Essentially, your argument goes:

1. The dead are dead and cannot do anything.
2. The martyred saints in Revelation 14 are dead.
3. Therefore, their existence in heaven and their "crying out" must be figurative.

Your conclusion succeeds only if we grant your first premise as true. But I don't think it is true at all! And I have posted many verses and passages that demonstrate why. Until you have shown that none of those verses or passages actually contradict your first premise, you cannot employ it as a given as you have here.

Jesus points out that Moses showed that the dead are raised. This is about the resurrection, not the state of the dead before the Resurrection. Notice Luke records, "for all live unto him." From God's perspective all live. Why is that? Because God is the source of life and will raise all again.

Nope. Consider the following quotation:

All live unto him—There is a remarkable passage in Josephus's account of the Maccabees, chap. xvi., which proves that the best informed Jews believed that the souls of righteous men were in the presence of God in a state of happiness. "They who lose their lives for the sake of God, LIVE unto GOD, as do Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the rest of the patriarchs." And one not less remarkable in Shemoth Rabba, fol. 159. "Rabbi Abbin saith, The Lord said unto Moses, Find me out ten righteous persons among the people, and I will not destroy thy people. Then said Moses, Behold, here am I, Aaron, Eleazar, Ithamar, Phineas, Caleb, and Joshua; but God said, Here are but seven, where are the other three? When Moses knew not what to do, he said, O Eternal God, do those live that are dead! Yes, saith God. Then said Moses, If those that are dead do live, remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So the resurrection of the dead, and the immortality and immateriality of the soul, were not strange or unknown doctrines among the Jews. (Adam Clarke - A Commentary and Critical Notes.)

You wrote, "From God's perspective, all live." The passage doesn't make any such qualification. In fact, Jesus is quoting Moses and is explaining Moses' perspective. And Moses clearly states, not that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will live again at some point in the future, but that they "all live - simple present tense - unto God" right now. And as we see in the quotation above, this would have been a commonly-held understanding among the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking (and why we see Moses speaking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration). I don't see, then, that you have succeeded in refuting the import of the passage in Luke 20 regarding an immaterial soul that survives physical death.

Selah.

 

[Major1]

Then you shouldn't be having such a problem with brethren who disagree with you, and are doing the very same thing you are.


Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

We're both the same age, so I'm pretty sure if you've actually 'been at it longer' than I, you certainly haven't proven to me that you've 'been at it better'. Because I too have talked to a lot of orthodox indoctrinated brethren in the 40+ years since I was first exposed to 'the UR GOSPEL' which none of you really know. I say that because your posts keep proving one thing above all; A man who 'knows only' his position doesn't really even 'know 'that. I've 'known' your position, but pursuit of God changed my fear of thinking contrary to the false 'traditions and commandments of men'....to fearing HIM instead.

Amen brother I absolutely agree with every word, because; "As iron sharpens iron" And since coming here, so shortly ago, I've noticed that the holy spiritual fruit of your early on 'kind, gentle grandfatherly colored posts' surely seems to be a bit unripened, when squeezed. Welcome to the 'Controversial Forum' BTW.

So this is your 'waffling' non response to my illuminating of your TORMENT/ODUNAO verse???? If you never had a wake up light on even that, then I am concerned for you my brother.

AND, if you truly "have no terror" concerning your belief in "eternal torments", then do you not reveal a heart far from the heart of God. And you'd be doing so, whether that doctrine is true OR false IMO. Maybe you know absolutely no one, to even relate to, who is going to suffer such sadistic and horrific tortures as those that will be met out by a God treating people worse than some cosmic Hitler running an eternal Auschwitz. That thought alone would certainly cause me 'concern'. And not just for those I know personally, but also for almost every 'condemned' human being GOD ever created...and loves. I can only say I'd commune with my heart on my bed tonight if I'd spoken such words as you've posted!!!


My sincere condolences for your loss. You never indicated it was anything more than 'a sports game loss' so I'm truly sorry for any offense you may have taken. But I do hope for you to know that no offense was ever intended to be given, with my words.

You are saying I am having problems with those who do not agree with. That my friend is as far from reality as are your personal comments.

I have no problems with anyone as all I do is get out the Word of God. If you do not like my posts, no problem at all for me as your concerns are not with me but the Word of God itself. I had no idea that you would be looking that close to a comment about a sports game so there was no need for the details. I do accept your apology as I am not here to be confrontational or argumenitive.

However, I am forced to say that Your comments to me seem more "personal" than informative or even debatable.

Example of your thinking:
"We're both the same age, so I'm pretty sure if you've actually 'been at it longer' than I, you certainly haven't proven to me that you've 'been at it better'."

The fact is I am no better than anyone else and not as good as most, and if that is what you came away with then you are not understanding much of anything I have said or actually who I am. I am just an old country boy from the Promised Land of Alabama and IMO you seemed to be having stressing over being confronted with your un-Biblical view of eternal torment as told to us in the Scriptures.

Another example:
" I've noticed that the holy spiritual fruit of your early on 'kind, gentle grandfatherly colored posts' surely seems to be a bit unripened, when squeezed."

Also, since I was responding to your suggestion on "Terror of ET", I was thinking of MY future location in heaven with Christ and not about being tormented in the lake of fire and I am convinced you knew that was the case. I find it disingenuous of you to suggest that I have no heart for the lost who will be going there as you said. I believe in my heart that YOU know that no Christian can be a Christian without a heart for the lost for that is one of the commands of Jesus for us to do.

You seem unable to discuss doctrine and Scriptures but do seem able to give physiological interpretation of others.
Yes, I am a grandfather!! If your opinion of me is that I am coming across to you as '"ind, gentle grandfatherly colored posts", then praise the Lord!

Instead of us wasting time on these personal observations and opinions, why not spend our time on the Scriptures which validate our opinions and understandings.? I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[Major1]

"I gave a comprehensive - though not exhaustive - answer. I offered many verses from both the Old and New Testaments that plainly indicate the idea of an immaterial soul that survives the death of the physical body.

Do they indicate it or is it your interpretation of those passages that indicates it? You're bringing the same argument the others did. None of these passages states that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. That means you're drawing inferences from what you read."

As I pointed out before, drawing inferences is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Homicide detectives do this all the time. So do scientists and historians. All of the passages clearly imply an immaterial soul that lives on after death. Since I don't have a vested interest - as you do - in denying these clear implications, I can read them in a straightforward manner that requires none of the fancy footwork you're reduced to in your attempts to dismiss them.



I'm afraid your reasoning here is a non sequitur. As I just explained, homicide detectives work from inferences all the time - but that doesn't mean they have the murder they're investigating all worked out already. Making an inference doesn't necessarily require having a view to which one conforms what is implied.



Nope. The verses clearly imply an immaterial soul that survives death so I believe that there is such a thing. It's no more complicated than that.

You really don't understand the Circular Reasoning Fallacy! Scientists often come to the work of science having already formed a hypothesis. They do empirical research to see if their hypothesis is valid. If they find that their research confirms their hypothesis, they are not accused of circular reasoning, but of proving their hypothesis. So, if someone comes to the Bible with a pre-existing notion, a hypothesis, about an immaterial soul and they study the Bible and discover the clear implication of such a thing in it, they are not guilty of circular reasoning but of confirming their hypothesis! Only when someone says, "I believe in an immaterial soul because immaterial souls exist and I know they exist because I believe they do," are they guilty of circular reasoning.



It doesn't matter what my presuppositions might have been if they coincide with what Scripture plainly indicates. Every reader brings a collection of ideas and experiences to their reading of the biblical text. Even you. In some instances, those ideas must be altered; in others, they must be abandoned; there are times, though, when a person's ideas and experiences are confirmed by Scripture. It is not always that a presupposition is forced upon the text of the Bible by a reader. That has to be shown, not merely asserted, as you are doing.



The Revelation is a highly figurative book - at times. Not all that is revealed in it, though, is figurative or symbolic. There are many things the apostle John writes of in his revelation that may be taken quite literally. John writes of angels, of Christ, of God, of heaven and divine judgment poured out on wicked humanity. These are not figures or symbols, stand-ins for other things. So, it is not reasonable to simply dismiss a portion of the Revelation as symbolic whenever it contradicts what you want to believe. You must do more to justify dismissing the martyred saints as symbolic than you have done. "The book is symbolic" hardly constitutes a good reason to think the saints crying out are figurative. What are they symbolic of? Why would figurative beings be having a conversation with a real Being? Why would God respond to the cries of non-literal beings? What do their being clothed in white robes symbolize? And so on. As far as I'm concerned, in the passage in Revelation 14, the reader is perfectly justified in thinking the martyred saints are actually martyred saints, that they do really cry out, and that God really does answer them. Certainly, nothing in the passage itself forbids such a simple, straightforward reading.

I need to prove it is possible for the soul to survive beyond the death of the body? What do you mean by "prove"? How have you "proved" the soul does not do so? You have done exactly what I have done and have argued from Scripture for your view. How, then, is your view more "proved" than mine? As I've demonstrated, there are many Bible verses and passages that clearly indicate an immaterial soul that survives beyond death. Your above attempt to refute one of them has been entirely unsuccessful. It doesn't look to me, then, like you have held yourself to your own standard and have "proved" your view that there is no immaterial soul that survives the death of the body.

"The dead are dead"? The physical body is dead but, as Scripture shows, that does not mean the immaterial soul has ceased to be as well. Your conclusion that it must be figurative language that is used in describing the martyred saints because "the dead are dead" is the very sort of Begging the Question you have repeatedly objected to! Your conclusion assumes the veracity of your premise. Essentially, your argument goes:

1. The dead are dead and cannot do anything.
2. The martyred saints in Revelation 14 are dead.
3. Therefore, their existence in heaven and their "crying out" must be figurative.

Your conclusion succeeds only if we grant your first premise as true. But I don't think it is true at all! And I have posted many verses and passages that demonstrate why. Until you have shown that none of those verses or passages actually contradict your first premise, you cannot employ it as a given as you have here.



Nope. Consider the following quotation:

All live unto him—There is a remarkable passage in Josephus's account of the Maccabees, chap. xvi., which proves that the best informed Jews believed that the souls of righteous men were in the presence of God in a state of happiness. "They who lose their lives for the sake of God, LIVE unto GOD, as do Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the rest of the patriarchs." And one not less remarkable in Shemoth Rabba, fol. 159. "Rabbi Abbin saith, The Lord said unto Moses, Find me out ten righteous persons among the people, and I will not destroy thy people. Then said Moses, Behold, here am I, Aaron, Eleazar, Ithamar, Phineas, Caleb, and Joshua; but God said, Here are but seven, where are the other three? When Moses knew not what to do, he said, O Eternal God, do those live that are dead! Yes, saith God. Then said Moses, If those that are dead do live, remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So the resurrection of the dead, and the immortality and immateriality of the soul, were not strange or unknown doctrines among the Jews. (Adam Clarke - A Commentary and Critical Notes.)

You wrote, "From God's perspective, all live." The passage doesn't make any such qualification. In fact, Jesus is quoting Moses and is explaining Moses' perspective. And Moses clearly states, not that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will live again at some point in the future, but that they "all live - simple present tense - unto God" right now. And as we see in the quotation above, this would have been a commonly-held understanding among the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking (and why we see Moses speaking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration). I don't see, then, that you have succeeded in refuting the import of the passage in Luke 20 regarding an immaterial soul that survives physical death.

Selah.

Well said and put together expertly.

 

[Major1]

Lexicon...
the vocabulary of a person, language, or branch of knowledge:

Websters...lexicon..

1. : a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions : dictionary
   
   
2. 2a : the vocabulary of a language, an individual speaker or group of speakers, or a subjectb : the total stock of morphemes in a language

IOW's the Lexicon is basically a dictionary of Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic words...notice nothing at all about some of the non sense you are claiming. But if you really want to challenge the Lexicon I can see if my husband has time to look at the words for you, he is quite busy but has training in ancient Geek and Hebrew. I'm guessing you would just find and excuse to dismiss what he tells you to since that is the emerging pattern in your posts.

That is a correct observation sister.

You see, the people who do not accept the Word of God on eternal torments have no Scripture as a basis of truth so that must ague and try to distort the meaning of individual words.

 

[Hillsage]

He isn't because He is God and therefore resurrected. Remember I Cor. 15:55 or Matt. 5:17 or Acts 2:24

He isn't 'WHAT' because He is God? In the Grave? I never said he was still in the grave. Still fulfilling the law? I never said he didn't fulfill the law. Not sitting in eternal hell because he is God? If being in eternal hell is the price, 'being God' never changed the price. If the price for sin is eternal hell, it's eternal hell for whoever took my/your place. And since the gospel of the church is accept Jesus or burn in hell for eternity, then Jesus being in hell in our place is the only way their gospel could be true. He isn't in eternal hell because eternal hell is false theology. I honestly don't know 'what' you are missing in my POV or 'why' you're missing it? Did this help?

 

[Der Alte]

No, it's not based on faulty reasoning. The reasoning is sound. They are an example, they suffered aionios fire. That fire is "NOT" still burning therefore aionios "CANNOT" mean eternal. I am well aware of the Lexicons and other works that claim aionios means eternal. However, the "BIBLE" makes it clear that they are wrong. People read their theology into the Bible. People impose their theology onto their commentaries. People impose their theology onto their lexicons.

You are absolutely right people do read their theology into the Bible and that is exactly what you have done here. I doubt very seriously if you could parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it. Yet you appointed yourself the end all, be all authority on Biblical Greek, without any lexical or grammatical support you blew off nine Greek languages sources, including quotes from Philo and Plato, and determined that they are all wrong.
.....Had you bothered to actually read the sources I quoted, you might have learned that many scholars think that Plato coined the adjective “aionios” since the first occurrence of “aionios” was in Plato’s writing, 423 –347 BC, Timaeus 37d where he uses aionios for that which transcends the world of time. Philo, 25BC-50AD, said in De Mundo, 7, “in [aioni] eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.”

The way a lexicon is made is by looking at all of the usages of a word and coming to a definition that fits those usages. People read passages that speak of things of God being aionios. For instance God's mercy is aionios. They deduce from that that since God is eternal, His mercy must be eternal, therefore, aionios must mean eternal. The problem is that it is clearly used of finite periods of time. The root aion means an age. If a definition doesn't fit with the Scriptures it's wrong.

This is quite humorous you lecture on how a lexicon is made and you totally ignored the nine Greek language sources I posted. Yes, the words “aion” and “aionios” are sometimes used for something that is not eternal. That is called hyperbole.
.....Once again, Simon was not actually a stone but Jesus called him petros/stone. James and John were not actually sons of thunder but Jesus called them that. Herod was not actually a fox but Jesus called him that. When Jesus said "take the beam out of your own eye then you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye," nobody literally had a beam in their eye. That is the figure of speech called hyperbole.